Author Topic: Rosetta upgrade  (Read 24015 times)

brinzlee

Re: Rosetta upgrade
« Reply #45 on: July 04, 2018, 12:15:22 pm »
Ok just tried again using a 50cm JuiceBitz and we have a happy throttled 0x0.....So I'm guessing again but the current draw on a Pi3 B and SDR's is too much now for a 1 metre long cable and Anker Battery combination....Again I would imagine if the battery eliminator devices (cigarette lighter adapter, Charge4 device) are dishing out slightly higher voltage and sustaining over 2.1a the 1 metre cable might still work.....
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 12:27:42 pm by brinzlee »

Paul_Sengupta

Re: Rosetta upgrade
« Reply #46 on: July 04, 2018, 02:35:32 pm »
Do a search for "USB tester" on e-bay. I find they can be quite useful.

JCurtis

Re: Rosetta upgrade
« Reply #47 on: July 04, 2018, 06:55:48 pm »
Do a search for "USB tester" on e-bay. I find they can be quite useful.

Be wary of those devices, they are not always accurate and introduce quite a drop on the output.  So while they may measure what comes out of the USB port, it bears no relation to what the device at the end of the cable is actually getting.

Ok just tried again using a 50cm JuiceBitz and we have a happy throttled 0x0.....So I'm guessing again but the current draw on a Pi3 B and SDR's is too much now for a 1 metre long cable and Anker Battery combination....Again I would imagine if the battery eliminator devices (cigarette lighter adapter, Charge4 device) are dishing out slightly higher voltage and sustaining over 2.1a the 1 metre cable might still work.....

Charge2 and Charge4 are set for a nominal 5.25v output, to help with voltage drop.  They will also generate this regardless of load.  The USB spec says a high power port must be between 4.75v to 5.25v, although this may be going up to 5.5v.  When checking a port it must ALWAYS be under load, just like checking a battery, the voltage means nothing unless it's under load.
Designer and maker of charge4.harkwood.co.uk, smart universal USB chargers designed for aviation.  USB Type-A and USB-C power without the RF interference. Approved for EASA installs under CS-STAN too.

Wadoadi

Re: Rosetta upgrade
« Reply #48 on: July 05, 2018, 02:08:37 pm »
@Lee re voltage measurements:

Driven from my RavPower (unrecommended battery)
Pi 3B
Single SDR 4.94V throttling 0x0 (none) - measured before the two SDR test.
Two SDRs 4.82V Throttling changing between 0X5000 (throttling has occurred) and 0x50005 (being throttled)
Single SDR 4.94 Throttling 0x0 - measured after the 2 SDR test in case of battery fade!

The voltage was measured with a DVM off the solder pads under the Micro USB port after the hotspot was active and the client connected to view home screen.

Admin

Re: Rosetta upgrade
« Reply #49 on: July 05, 2018, 04:47:24 pm »
Hi Adi

Interesting, I wonder what effect the cable is having (referring back to Jeremy's post)
I presume it is JuicyBitz - is it 0.5M or 1.0M ?
and how old is it

IIRC the under-voltage occurs when voltage drops below 4.8V
Also this is instantaneous voltage which is difficult to measure without equipment which can have multiple samples.

Also, I would have thought the better place to measure the voltage would have been on one of the 4xUSB

Thx
Lee

exfirepro

Re: Rosetta upgrade
« Reply #50 on: July 05, 2018, 04:54:45 pm »
Hi All,

I'm not disputing Jeremy's advice in any way as I fully understand and accept his reasoning, but I'm surprised you are finding cable length so critical. I have run my Rosetta on test at home from my Standard Anker batteries with 2 x SDRs and a fan on a (fairly new) 2 metre JuicEbitz 20AWG cable with no ill effects whatsoever.

Keep up the testing though - the info is all useful.

Best Regards

Peter
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 10:59:52 am by exfirepro »

JCurtis

Re: Rosetta upgrade
« Reply #51 on: July 05, 2018, 05:26:28 pm »
I'm not disputing Jeremy's advice in any way as I fully understand and accept his reasoning,

You can try, but its the laws of physics you'd end up having the argument with.... {possibly say this line in a strong Scottish accent whilst looking worried}

but I'm surprised you are finding cable length so critical. I have run my Rosetta on test at home from my Standard Anker batteries with 2 x SDRs and a fan on a (fairly new) 2 metre JuicEbitz 20AWG cable with no ill effects whatsoever.

The voltage drop is directly proportional to a combination of cable size (thickness and length) and current.

There are various calculators available but for example...

5v, 2 Amps, 1m 20AWG cable means you would expect to see 4.87v at the other end
5v, 2 Amps, 2m 20AWG cable means you would expect to see 4.73v at the other end

5v, 2 Amps, 1m 22AWG cable means you would expect to see 4.79v at the other end
5v, 2 Amps, 2m 22AWG cable means you would expect to see 4.58v at the other end

This is just the cable, then you have to throw in the USB connectors themselves, which are good for another drop of ~0.2v - 0.4v depending on quality etc.  It doesn't take too much effort to make a 20awg cable a 22awg cable with age and flexing.
Designer and maker of charge4.harkwood.co.uk, smart universal USB chargers designed for aviation.  USB Type-A and USB-C power without the RF interference. Approved for EASA installs under CS-STAN too.

brinzlee

Re: Rosetta upgrade
« Reply #52 on: July 05, 2018, 05:41:01 pm »
So I have also run the same test......but measuring voltage from one of the four USB ports and my figures are as follows

50cm JuiceBitz USB cable.....with an Anker Power Bank model B30224. 22400maH on the port supplying 2.4A max
Pi 3B
Single SDR v2    4.91V Throttling 0x0 (none) - measured before the two SDR test.
Two SDRs v2      4.84V Throttling 0X0

100cm JuiceBitz USB cable with Red Plugs.....with an Anker Power Bank model B30224. 22400maH on the port supplying 2.4A max
Pi 3B
Single SDR v2    4.85V Throttling 0x0 (none) - measured before the two SDR test.
Two SDRs v2      4.83V Throttling 0X50000

In my case CABLES !!!
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 06:04:28 pm by brinzlee »

JCurtis

Re: Rosetta upgrade
« Reply #53 on: July 05, 2018, 06:06:11 pm »
Also this is instantaneous voltage which is difficult to measure without equipment which can have multiple samples.

I can do 50,000 samples a second and the DMM is calibrated. Happy to run through a few tests if it helps get some data, just need the stuff that needs to be tested.
Designer and maker of charge4.harkwood.co.uk, smart universal USB chargers designed for aviation.  USB Type-A and USB-C power without the RF interference. Approved for EASA installs under CS-STAN too.

brinzlee

Re: Rosetta upgrade
« Reply #54 on: July 05, 2018, 06:15:54 pm »
I think I've found a Chinese importer that can make 1 metre USB cables out of this.....he said terminating it is 'no problem' in a thick Chinese accent...
However weight and balance could be an issue !!!
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 09:08:01 pm by brinzlee »

JCurtis

Re: Rosetta upgrade
« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2018, 06:29:31 pm »
Nah, thats a cable for laying under water, no good altitude....  ;D
Designer and maker of charge4.harkwood.co.uk, smart universal USB chargers designed for aviation.  USB Type-A and USB-C power without the RF interference. Approved for EASA installs under CS-STAN too.

exfirepro

Re: Rosetta upgrade
« Reply #56 on: July 05, 2018, 07:07:52 pm »
Thanks Scotty Jeremy,

I’m really glad I said I wasn’t disputing your advice....  :-[  :-\

Best Regards

Peter
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 11:01:26 am by exfirepro »

Wadoadi

Re: Rosetta upgrade
« Reply #57 on: July 05, 2018, 10:56:36 pm »
my current cable is 50cm JuiceBitz USB cable 50cm

I have so 10cm 20awgs on order from JuiceBitz!

yes the cable is quite old, so it could well be that...

I messured the voltage at that point as wanted to know pre Pi power supply what the cable and battery was delivering under load.


At our head office I have access to a LSA that I believe can measure voltage over time among other things, but I will wait for the cables to try first.

I did read on a PI forum of some one adding a buck dc-dc step up and uping the voltage at the battery end to 5.1v or 5.25v. not sure if that would be a worth while experiment or not?

Or if the more efficient power supply on the 3B+ would help I have a Pi 3b+ if any testing would help?

AlanG

Re: Rosetta upgrade
« Reply #58 on: July 09, 2018, 08:25:37 pm »
Whilst not  disputing or detracting from any advise given above I have read much recently about the various battery packs becoming "smart" and controlling the power/current output to smooth out spikes etc.
I wonder if this may have some affect on peak demands from PAW being smoothed out.
My packs are older and pre this terminology and I have never experienced this problem.  I use an Anker Powedrive 5 in the aircraft but I believe even the latest incarnation of these have the "smart" technology.
I've no idea if this has any bearing on the problem but thought it worth a mention.
Alan
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 08:28:52 pm by AlanG »

JCurtis

Re: Rosetta upgrade
« Reply #59 on: July 09, 2018, 09:30:49 pm »
Whilst not  disputing or detracting from any advise given above I have read much recently about the various battery packs becoming "smart" and controlling the power/current output to smooth out spikes etc.
I wonder if this may have some affect on peak demands from PAW being smoothed out.
My packs are older and pre this terminology and I have never experienced this problem.  I use an Anker Powedrive 5 in the aircraft but I believe even the latest incarnation of these have the "smart" technology.
I've no idea if this has any bearing on the problem but thought it worth a mention.
Alan

It is the device that decides how much power to draw, regardless of supply.  If the device decides to try and draw more than the supply can handle you will get problems.  All schemes such a PowerIQ are there to identify to the end device that is it connected to a fully leaded supply and therefore is free to pull as much as it can.  This is done by fiddling with the D+/D- lines.  Mine do similar things looking to tell the end device that it is free to pull as much power as it wants.  If something works totally outside the specs (looking at you Samsung...) you can put a customised profile on one or more ports on my units to counter this.

The Pi doesn't have the D+/D- pins connected, as it's not looking to charge but be a "Power Thief" under the standards, just a device hungry for power.  The specs say any device attached to a USB port should be limited until identified, although in general chargers don't do this but the likes of laptops etc. do.  Most of the time such chargers will simply connect the output power direct without interruption (not a good idea for a number of reasons) so things like the Pi will work fine up to a point.

What is unknown is if the negotiation fails under PowerIQ (as it must, as the pins aren't connected) does it actually impose a limit or just let the end device draw what it wants.  As they say there is per port protection of some kind, and they can increase the voltage on a per port basis too (up to 12v for the latest ones), these newer supplies must regulate the supply on a per port basis.  If I get time I'll get hold of one and stick it on the bench to see what happens, be an interesting experiment.

The Pi (and PAW) usage is 'spiky' needing a supply be to be able to have fast transient response.  Chargers generally don't handle that too well, they are designed to supply a steady state to charge a battery after all.  The end device is powered by the battery, and the supply charges the battery.  The electronics in the likes of a phone or tablet handle this in the background, the input power doesn't go into the device direct.  This is why so many of the cheap wung-hung-lo chargers can damage the charging ICs on modern devices, they identify they can do everything but physically can't and their output is so poor it knackers the charging IC over time.

I did spot their VoltageBoost description...

Quote
VoltageBoost™ is an Anker-exclusive technology that compensates for cable resistance by smoothing voltage output.
Other chargers have their speeds reduced by cable resistance. With the effects of cable resistance mitigated by VoltageBoost™,
your device receives its fastest possible charging speed, every single time.

...which is meaningless, smoothing output has noting to do with resistance.  I suspect this got a bit mangled in translation!
Designer and maker of charge4.harkwood.co.uk, smart universal USB chargers designed for aviation.  USB Type-A and USB-C power without the RF interference. Approved for EASA installs under CS-STAN too.