PAW and no nav software?

[RF3flyer]

OK, possibly a real stupid question but indicative of my near absolute ignorance.

Can PAW be used without running a navigation package like SkyDemon?
Presumably with no display it would work to alert other flyers but, of course, I'd want to have some means of benefiting by seeing the traffic too. Perhaps the Radar view would work on its own. I know there are voice alerts but I'd probably find then irritating.

You might wonder why I even ask the question, but at the moment I don't own and have never owned a tablet, of any flavour, and I have no navigation software other than SkyDemon Lite on my computer. So I'm pretty much ignorant of this whole area but feel I should maybe try to catch up a little.

[Ian Melville]

Do you own a smartphone?. In addition to the audio, you can user the Radar on a smartphone or tablet. Could you buy a cheap Android tablet just for that?

[RF3flyer]

No smart phone, I'm afraid. The closest thing I have is an iPod Touch but I was not really considering that as an option. I have lately been thinking about an Android tablet, maybe 7" size, but that's another field where I'm hopelessly out of my depth.

[Ian Melville]

Not a field I can advise on as I am an iPad user. Though I have half a mind to buy one as they often have USB ports to plug stuff into. I suppose what you choose does depend on whether you just want to use the inbuilt Radar or to go for broke and get a navigation software package.

[Moffrestorer]

Hi RF3,

PAW can be used without running a Nav package. As you observe you can just use the audible alerts but if you want visual alerts you will need a tablet or smartphone to display the Radar view. This can be android or iOS (Apple) device. I don't know anything about the iPod Touch; I have a tiny iPod but I cannot think that would or its successor would be any us for this application.

Android Tablets can be very cheap to buy secondhand and are not too expensive new. This might be your best route, otherwise I have been able to use an pretty basic old android smartphone (without phone contract or pay as you go) to tap into PAWs Radar display. You might have a relative or friend who has something similar they don't use that they would be pleased to offload to you!

If you really don't want a subscription Nav program, there is a free gliding program called XC Soar that features a moving map and Radar display that interfaces with PAW. See PAW documentation on the PilotAware and PilotAwarehardware websites.

[exfirepro]

RF3Flyer,

I fly a flexwing and due to the proximity of the 'Base Bar' to the tablet when parking the plane 'wing-down', I have to mount my tablet in landscape mode. Having previously used an Android Nexus 7 tablet (wide screen display so very 'slim fit'), I changed to a 'WiFi only' iPad mini because it gives a better format (4 x 3 display) in landscape mode, so I can now see more of my route ahead than with the wide screen format tablet. At the time I changed over, the iPad Mini was one of only a few small tablets available in this format, though others are now available. In particular I have seen a 4 x 3 format Samsung I really like, which is almost the exact same size, for those with an aversion to Apple.

During PAW development testing, we used a variety of tablets, phones and navigation systems and, having just booted up PAW and tested it just to make sure,  can confirm that the radar display also works on my iPod touch, so lots of display options are available, whether or not you want to subscribe to a proprietary Nav System. FWIW I heartily recommend, however, that you do consider doing so at some point as it co-ordinates the whole experience and makes it all so much more worth while.

Best Regards

Peter

[RF3flyer]

Moffrestorer and exfirepro, thank you both.

I'm not averse to Apple products, my desktops are Macs, but I rather balk at the price of an iPad mini 4 just for PAW. Not saying if I had one that's all I would use it for but so far I have not felt the need to own a tablet. I do see the advantage of the 4x3 format over the what, 9x6? Interesting that PAW works on the iPod Touch, though.

As to nav packages, I think I'm aware of most of the mainstream ones. I'm not really averse to them, but nor am I particularly drawn to any one of them. I'm an old fart and I like 'steam'.

For traffic alerts I have to say I rather like the simplicity of the Flarm Butterfly display, which is why I wondered if the Radar view on it's own would work for me, at least as a starting point.

Lots to think about here and more research to be done.

Thanks again.

[GeoffreyC]

I'm not averse to Apple products, my desktops are Macs, but I rather balk at the price of an iPad mini 4 just for PAW. Not saying if I had one that's all I would use it for but so far I have not felt the need to own a tablet. I do see the advantage of the 4x3 format over the what, 9x6? Interesting that PAW works on the iPod Touch, though.

To add my penny-worth to the debate,  I think it firstly depends on how much space you have in your cockpit for a secondary display.

I was planning on using a cheap 9" Android tablet that I managed to "liberate" off my son,  but having tried it,  I found that it just wouldn't fit without obscuring other equipment in my flexwing.
So I've been using a spare smartphone for my PAW display,  firstly a Motorola Moto G and then a Moto E, both of which are just 5" across and can fit on the top of my dash on a bracket I've fixed next to the front strut compass.

I've successfully run XCsoar, Radar3D and PAW's own Radar display on these phones and they've all been usable.   I've more or less settled on PAW Radar as the XCSoar is quite cluttered (there's no ability to filter out jets above me at 30,000') and I sometimes find it hard to read Radar3D,  but you take your choice.

Looking just now on eBay you can buy a Moto G or a cheap Android tablet for circa £40-50,  so certainly there's no need to buy into Apple. 

[grahambaker]

Surely the time is here for someone to write a smart watch display for PAW? No need to look at it until it vibrates on your wrist, and a simple radial display with distance/level etc would be good for those with restricted cockpit real estate.

[RF3flyer]

In the hangar yesterday I was giving some thought to where I might mount a display and frankly, I'm stumped.
To reiterate, I don't have a tablet and I don't have a navigation app, so considering only the Radar display on something small I thought I could mount it at the top of the coaming convenient to see. I don't even have a smart phone so for purposes of evaluation I used my iPod touch but found it put a hefty swing into the compass directly below. Moving it out of influence it would obscure something more fundamental or end up so far off any normal line of sight as to be not useful.

How do others work with PAW? I expect most people will see it as an overlay on a navigation app but are they then always looking at a tablet screen either on their kneepad or on a yolk mount or something? That's not how I fly. Or are they relying on the voice alerts lo look in?

[tnowak]

I use SkyDemon running on my small Samsung Galaxy S3 smartphone.
In my aircraft I have it mounted on the instrument panel more or less in line of sight where I would be looking out.
I made a small holder that my phone slides into and it only protrudes a few inches above the panel.
No magnets in the smartphone!
Tony

[Ian Melville]

RF3flyer, you should be flying eyes out the vast majority of the time. Just glances at the display, as you would any other instrument. The voice alerts will trigger me to have a good look out first, then only if I do not see a threat, check the display. There is a lot of stuff out there that is not giving out PAW, ADSB, FLARM or plain transponding.

[RF3flyer]

I use ... my small Samsung Galaxy S3 smartphone.
... mounted on the instrument panel more or less in line of sight where I would be looking out.
No magnets in the smartphone!
Tony

Tony, your last assertion surprised me so, while I don't have a smartphone, today I had a couple of friends place theirs, an iPhone and a Samsung, at the top of the panel where I think it would be best placed and both affected the compass every bit as much as my iPod did.
Perhaps you fly a side-by-side 2/4 seater and 'on the panel more or less in line of sight' is 300-400mm west of the compass. I'm single seat so the compass is top dead centre.

RF3flyer, you should be flying eyes out the vast majority of the time.

Absolutely! No argument there.

[tnowak]

RF3flyer,

My smartphone would be about 24" away from my compass; I fly a two seat side by side vintage. My compass mounted at the top of the cabin just in front of the canopy.
I am surprised you are seeing such an effect. Can't be too much metal in a smartphone.
Tony

[JCurtis]

I use SkyDemon running on my small Samsung Galaxy S3 smartphone.
In my aircraft I have it mounted on the instrument panel more or less in line of sight where I would be looking out.
I made a small holder that my phone slides into and it only protrudes a few inches above the panel.
No magnets in the smartphone!
Tony

If it can play audio without headphones, or vibrates, it has magnets in it.  The former needs them for the speakers, the latter for the little motor that does the vibrating.
Plus what ever magnetic field it can generate during normal use. 

They are part of the testing any product needs, to check for emissions and immunity from magnetics.  If you install any equipment in an aircraft always check the compass isn't affected.

The pic is a product of mine (non aviation related) undergoing those tests, the ring is a coil of wire, various sizes were used during the tests.