Contact lost intermittently with other paw unit

[dow123]

I have classic unit which is seeing commercial traffic ok , and picking up my friends paw unit but
When we fly together in are separate aircraft the contact for him on skydemon keeps dropping out and disappearing from screen and his contact for me also drops out on his air nav pro unit ,this is intermittent and comes and goes throughout the flight .we have checked aerials and moved locations of paw units etc .when it works it's very good but frustrating when it drops out . When I loose his contact I can still get commercial traffic ok . Unfortunately I have no one else with paw unit to see if same thing happens .any suggestions thanks

[exfirepro]

Hi dow,

Commercial (ADSB) signals are much less likely to drop out as they are received by a different antenna system (the thin one on the end of a cable), from much further away and are much higher power transmissions in the first place.

This still sounds like a problem with one or both of your P3i aerials (the long fat ones screwed directly to the PAW) being screened by aircraft metalwork, engines or your own bodies (effectively big bags of water - no insult intended). Can you tell us what type of aircraft you are flying and where you each have your paw units/antennas located please. Also what sort of distance are you talking about?

In testing, PAW to PAW signals were received at up to 26km, but with these relatively low power transceivers, antenna positioning is critical. Have you read the Antenna Location document in the 'Documentation' Section ? http://forum.pilotaware.com/index.php/topic,400.0.html

In 'real-world' use you can expect to receive reliable P3i communication at distances of 5 - 10 miles minimum with no dropouts with a normally functioning PAW Classic setup, though if you are flying very close to each other antenna location strangely becomes much more critical. During mode 'S' testing for example, we found that it was 'possible' to screen the other aircraft by getting in so close that the receive antenna was screened from the transmit one by our own engines and bodies, though in real life you would never fly that close and of course couldn't actually get there without having already triggered warning alerts. This might, however, explain the phenomenon you are experiencing where one or other of your signals appear to be dropping out.

The other very important thing to check is that you are both using the correct power cables and that your power supplies are beefy enough to maintain effective operation - minimum 2 Amps at 5 Volts.


Regards

Peter

[Admin]

Hi dow123

In addition to Peters questions.

Both of your paw classics will have recorded your flights.
On the web server there is a listtracks button, please select

You can download the track file for the given flight.
If you provide this from both units I can analyse the data offline

This could give an indication.

Also when your friends PAW loses you as a contact, does he also retain adsb traffic ?

As Peter says please provide more info regarding installation

Thx
Lee

[dow123]

Hi guys thank you both for your replies .
My aircraft is a Eurostar and my friends is a pioneer 200 , I have previously read the document
On antenna positioning and have the paw temp mounted on top instrument panel with clear view
Through canopy and my friend has done the same but less of a problem for him as pioneer is wooden
Construction .have considered mounting an external Antenna but very few places on Eurostar to mount not being able to drill holes in fuselage except wing route plate or fibreglass parts .
I have the supplied power lead but it is going into a usb converter to 12v car socket ?
My friends paw unit is an early beta test unit with the latest bridge updated etc and think he uses
A hard wired 12v to 5v usb converter . We usually loose contact at about 4 to 5 miles and would have expected a little more range . Will attempt to retrieve the track file to send to you guys .thanks again

[Admin]

Hi dow123,

So some comments:

Firstly 4-5 miles is not terrible to be honest for Traffic avoidance purposes this is enough warning time I think
once I get your track files, I can be a bit more accurate on this.

That said, I think you can get much better - we typically see 20km, dependant upon factors, and the low hanging fruit is as follows.

1. Power, Power, Power
This is crucial - I am sure you have heard me say this before ;-)
and not all 12v-5v adapters are the same.
I am no RF expert but as I understand, the poor quality USB adapters can inject noise into the (very sensitive) RF receiver, meaning that the sensitivity is reduced. I have seen this myself when using the cheap chinese imports my range and visibility was drastically reduced.

Option 1:
I swapped it for an Anker USB adapter, which works brilliantly I cannot stress what a good investment of approx £10 that was, hopefully this link will not go stale
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Anker-PowerDrive-2-Port-Charger-iPhone/dp/B00VH84L5E/ref=dp_ob_title_ce

Option 2:
Keith Vinning is also using an Anker powerbank, not sure which one (I will ask him to post), but he ran his PAW for 24hrs on a fully charged powerbank !

Option 3:
In addition you have the option of the Charge2/Charge4 offerings from Jeremy Curtis

2. Antenna, Antenna, Antenna
Again, becoming a bit of a mantra, its all about the position.
If you are unable to get a good position with the box mounted dipole, then go for the centre-fed dipole which is supplied with coax, or some coax connected to an external monopole or dipole - dependant upon the presence of a groundplane.
(all the antenna options available from PilotAwareHardware.com)
I understand your constraints with drilling holes etc.


Recommendations:
1. let me have your tracks.

2. invest in one of the power supplies I list above, If you are running off auxilliary power, sounds like the Anker IQ is the best match for you, they really are good, alternately if you want to have the unit running when sat in the clubhouse or at the end of the strip, then the anker powerbank

Thx
Lee

[dow123]

Hi Lee , have downloaded track file from my paw unit but I can't open it on my iPad and the attachment option below won't allow me to send it , I'm afraid my computer skills are limited.
Have ordered an Anker usb  adapter to try as you recommended .
The centre fed dipole antenna , Does it need to be positioned vertical in length .also looked at PUK
Antenna from rs components because it's small enough to fit on top of panel or externally ,it has a metal thread and nut centre so not sure if it needs a ground plane , but I know you guys have not tested this type .
                       Many thanks

[Admin]

Hi dow123

To download the track file you will need either a PC or MAC (sorry for not making that clear).
You can connect these to PAW just like any wireless router.

The dipoles need to be mounted vertically, the advantage of the centre-fed, is you can position it much better as it has a coax lead.

I cannot comment on the PUK antenna, I have still not received any reports of how well it performs.

Thx
Lee

[dougblair]

It would be good to have some info on PUK antenna as they look like a good external option.  I am trying to find a good antenna position in the rear not blocked by that well known blob of water, my head. If one of the RF experts could comment I will buy one and give it a go.

[Keithvinning]

Option 2:
Keith Vinning is also using an Anker powerbank, not sure which one (I will ask him to post), but he ran his PAW for 24hrs on a fully charged powerbank !

Yes I have found the ANKER Powercore  20100 to be very reliable and good quality when used with PilotAware.

Keith

[exfirepro]

I have also been using one of these Anker units to power my PAWs since December (I actually bought 2) and find them extremely reliable, with no problems whatsoever.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Compact-20000mAh-Portable-Anker-PowerCore/dp/B00VJSGT2A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1466690458&sr=8-1&keywords=anker+powercore+20100

Regards

Peter R

[Pegassusuk]

hi
i am the other party (pioneer 200)
i have the track files for you Lee ,but do not see any way of attaching the files !
can you advise
mike

[dow123]

Hi guys sent track logs from both paw units for Lee to look at through the support e mail
As unable to send size of attachment from this forum      thanks dow123

[exfirepro]

Hi Dow/Mike,

Just so you know, Lee is on hols at the moment, but I'm sure he will look at both your logs when he gets back.

Regards

Peter

[dow123]

Thanks for letting us know .
                                        dow123

[Admin]

Thanks for letting us know .
                                        dow123

Hi dow123
sent you a PM for you to provide the tracks
thx
Lee