Author Topic: Radio inteference  (Read 9724 times)

drvale

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Radio inteference
« on: May 26, 2016, 03:26:04 pm »
I have today flight tested the latest PAW and all works perfectly except I am getting very bad radio interference. My PAW antennae are mid fuselage and radio antennae in the tail. All wood aircraft. In flight I removed aerials one at a time and no difference. Unplug and all returns to normal. I have tried moving the PAW around within the cockpit and no difference. My suspicion is the USB power supply 2.1 A which is now hard wired into the aircraft. Does anyone know of a tested for RF non cigar lighter USB source or is a ferrite core a possible solution and if so what would be the optimum location within the cable. I.e. On the 12V power or USB output power.
David Vale, G-OCAD

Paul_Sengupta

Re: Radio inteference
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2016, 04:51:47 pm »

Admin

Re: Radio inteference
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2016, 05:29:57 pm »
The 12v USB Aux devices are notorious for this, unless you buy a real good quality one.
Alternately use a USB power pack (must be able to deliver 2.1A)
or of course there are the Charge2/Charge4 options

thx
Lee

JCurtis

Re: Radio inteference
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2016, 06:02:10 pm »
My suspicion is the USB power supply 2.1 A which is now hard wired into the aircraft. Does anyone know of a tested for RF non cigar lighter USB source or is a ferrite core a possible solution and if so what would be the optimum location within the cable. I.e. On the 12V power or USB output power.

As others have said the in car chargers can be just terrible, especially when used near or at their rated current value.

A ferrite could potentially help with conducted emissions back down the cable, it won't do anything for radiated emissions of the charger itself.

Designer and maker of charge4.harkwood.co.uk, smart universal USB chargers designed for aviation.  USB Type-A and USB-C power without the RF interference. Approved for EASA installs under CS-STAN too.

drvale

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Re: Radio inteference
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2016, 11:18:59 pm »
Seems Charge 2/4 is the solution BUT most items are out of stock with no clue as to when next availability is. A cost of nearly ½ that of the PAW also seems that to have an effective PAW then everyone should be adding 50% to their cost installation. Are there alternatives?
David Vale, G-OCAD

JCurtis

Re: Radio inteference
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2016, 11:30:40 pm »
Seems Charge 2/4 is the solution BUT most items are out of stock with no clue as to when next availability is. A cost of nearly ½ that of the PAW also seems that to have an effective PAW then everyone should be adding 50% to their cost installation. Are there alternatives?

Yes the Charge2 is currently out of stock, there will be more available early next week, they sold out earlier this week.  The website is setup to only permit sales for items in stock, it is easier to do this than to delay charging a card until the order ships.

Yes that are not the cheapest solution out there, although I believe they are the cheapest designed to meet the aviation standards.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 11:32:17 pm by JCurtis »
Designer and maker of charge4.harkwood.co.uk, smart universal USB chargers designed for aviation.  USB Type-A and USB-C power without the RF interference. Approved for EASA installs under CS-STAN too.

Paul_Sengupta

Re: Radio inteference
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2016, 01:04:02 am »
Are there alternatives?

Not sure, I don't know if anyone's done any testing on any others. I use a cigarette lighter one from Anker. I tried a few with my car radio...the cheap one I bought for £1.50 really degraded the radio reception while not causing interference as such. Another couple I have make a barely perceptible change. I've settled on an Anker one and/or a Powergen one. I also have one of the Anker batteries which I use sometimes.

Not tried any of the installed units though.

Keithvinning

Re: Radio inteference
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2016, 09:35:24 am »

It is very important that the supply used to power the Raspberry pi is stable, capable of providing 2A and does not create a significant amount of radiated noise either through radio interference or induced noise into the primary power source. This can affect other  electronic equipment in your aircraft particularly noticeable in the radio.
For this reason, it is recommended that the Raspberry pi is powered from a good quality portable power charger such as the Anker range of units. Cigarette lighter voltage converters can be used but they must be of good quality and capable of  delivering a constant 2A. Beware of running additional consumer items off the cigarette lighter voltage converter as this may reduce the power available for PilotAware and cause the Raspberry pi to reset. If there are any problems with your PilotAware unit then first check that you are using a reliable power supply and a good quality 20ASG cable. This is the commonest reason for failure of the unit experienced to date by far.

If you are operating an EASA aircraft or you want an EASA approved power supply for PilotAware certified units can be bought from www.charge4.co.uk.

Regards

Keith


JCurtis

Re: Radio inteference
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2016, 12:33:26 pm »

It is very important that the supply used to power the Raspberry pi is stable, capable of providing 2A and does not create a significant amount of radiated noise either through radio interference or induced noise into the primary power source. This can affect other  electronic equipment in your aircraft particularly noticeable in the radio.
For this reason, it is recommended that the Raspberry pi is powered from a good quality portable power charger such as the Anker range of units. Cigarette lighter voltage converters can be used but they must be of good quality and capable of  delivering a constant 2A. Beware of running additional consumer items off the cigarette lighter voltage converter as this may reduce the power available for PilotAware and cause the Raspberry pi to reset. If there are any problems with your PilotAware unit then first check that you are using a reliable power supply and a good quality 20ASG cable. This is the commonest reason for failure of the unit experienced to date by far.

If you are operating an EASA aircraft or you want an EASA approved power supply for PilotAware certified units can be bought from www.charge4.co.uk.

Regards

Keith

A quick note on this:

The PilotAware team recommend that a 2A supply is needed for the PilotAware unit, so if you also need to power your tablet/phone/anything else then this is over and above the 2A.  This in effect means if you have a single cigarette socket then a supply of at least 3A is needed, ideally one rated more than 3A.  Unlike charging a battery where the current draw is basically constant, the PilotAware kit power draw isn't, the power draw depends on what it is doing.  You can see the power draw during boot up in this thread http://forum.pilotaware.com/index.php/topic,401.msg5332.html#msg5332 I plan to take some more detailed measurements over the next few weeks.

My chargers have been independently put through testing and the technical report accepted by EASA for installation into EASA aircraft, work is underway to try and obtain a Minor Mod approval covering a wide range of EASA GA aircraft, unfortunately the wheels within EASA don't turn particularly quickly.  The avionics shop that did the work is looking to put elements of the report and comparisons up on their website.

You can install my chargers in LAA aircraft, or plug them in via cigarette lead if needed too, the choice is yours.  I have not tested the Anker plug in products so cannot really comment on their performance.  As with all these things the installations in GA aircraft are so varied that what works for someone may not work as well, or at all, for someone else.

If you go down the portable battery pack route (i.e. standalone of the aircraft power systems) then just be wary of the power ratings of products. Always give yourself plenty of headroom in terms of battery capacity and the amount of power the pack can supply.  Be aware the capacity will degrade over time, that is just a fact of life with the battery technology.  Probably bank on replacing them every few years depending on usage.  If you don't use them regularly when flying, use them at home every couple of weeks to put them through a charge/discharge cycle as this will help extend the battery.  The Anker packs seem to have received good reports within the community.

Yes you do need to use the 20AWG USB cable regardless of power source, the voltage drop otherwise can be too great, especially if the power source isn't all that good.  One of the common issues with the cheap chargers is as you draw more power the voltage drops, so although the PilotAware may boot, when it gets up and running weird things happen.  This can be because the voltage at the PilotAware unit drops too low and causes issues.
Designer and maker of charge4.harkwood.co.uk, smart universal USB chargers designed for aviation.  USB Type-A and USB-C power without the RF interference. Approved for EASA installs under CS-STAN too.

Andy Fell

Re: Radio inteference
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2016, 08:51:46 am »
There are alternatives if you're happily working outside the land of bureaucratic BS.

If you are a bit handy with a soldering iron it's fairly easy to put yourself together a power supply that is capable of 3A.. you can get little switch mode power supply modules off ebay which are based on a popular Texas Instruments chipset (LM2596).  They only cost about £3.
I have used these many times with success...

However, it helps also to add a little extra filtering in the form of inductance and capacitance, but this is easy to do.  (actually on mine I've only added a little extra capacitance and it's been fine)

In the majority of cases the interference is conducted switching noise going back up the 12V aircraft supply, which is then fed into your radio.  What happens is that the power supply has a switch inside which is turned on and off very quickly..  the advantage of this is that the voltage is converted down to 5V without wasting power.. the disadvantage is that this on/off switching can create disturbance of the voltages if not properly dealt with - which leads to interference.

This can be sorted by filtering the 12V input to the little power supply to stop it injecting noise into your aircraft 12V (i.e. adding capacitance and a series choke inductor) - just like you would do with a suppressor in car ignition systems.  This helps prevent the noise from then getting into the radio from its' power supply.

These little units will happily run at about 80-90% efficiency, so when supplying 2A to the PAW they won't get too hot:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-4V-38V-to-1-25V-36V-5A-Step-Down-Power-Supply-Regulator-24V-12V-9V-5V-UK-/121981769588?hash=item1c66ae1774:g:f54AAOSwo6lWI2Do

The blue potentiometer can be adjusted to ensure you get enough voltage at your device, but you will need to use decent gauge cable as has been mentioned above.

But, only use one of them per device... so don't try to run a PAW AND a tablet off just one of them, it wont work... and don't forget to use an in-line FUSE!

Put it in a small metal box and this will also help get rid of radiated noise (if it's an issue).


Cheers
Andy

« Last Edit: May 28, 2016, 09:23:45 am by Wobblewing »

JCurtis

Re: Radio inteference
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2016, 09:35:44 am »
Be VERY careful with these modules they are one of the worst I've seen, they can be bought from eBay (5 for £4.99 inc shipping from China). The voltage regulator IC (LT2596) is a fake as 10k quantity direct from TI costs more than they sell the whole product for. When pulling just 1A out (they are nominally rated at 3A) the output had a 800mv (0.8v) ripple. With it at 12v and set to 5.2v output pulling 2A the output at the board fell to 4.8V, it failed shortly afterwards simply because it overheated.  The radiated & conducted emissions were just horrible too.

I bought 5, out of these 1 still works after some fairly rudimentary testing and loading.  NEVER run these anywhere near their rated current for long, they will fail.

Basically if you want to build your own, please don't base it on one of these, for me they are a problem waiting to happen *.


* Naturally people will disagree and have had success in using them.  I am sure they have their place, but a cockpit is not one of them.
Designer and maker of charge4.harkwood.co.uk, smart universal USB chargers designed for aviation.  USB Type-A and USB-C power without the RF interference. Approved for EASA installs under CS-STAN too.

Andy Fell

Re: Radio inteference
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2016, 09:50:31 am »
Didn't think that would take long.
 ;D

That's quite an assertion!  There are many such power supply ICs around as I'm sure you will know.

It would be wrong to give the impression that a PAW effectively costs twice as much as advertised by requiring a Roll Royce power supply... this would be very misleading and goes against the grain of keeping it low cost.

No dispute that the charge2/4 devices are well engineered with a target in mind and if people are prepared to pay for it, that's fine.  But let's not give people the impression that it is a requirement for PAW, because it is not!
« Last Edit: May 28, 2016, 09:58:59 am by Wobblewing »

JCurtis

Re: Radio inteference
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2016, 10:01:25 am »
Didn't think that would take long.
 ;D

That's quite an assertion!  There are many such power supply ICs around as I'm sure you will know.

It would be wrong to give the impression that a PAW effectively costs twice as much as advertised by requiring a Roll Royce power supply... this would be very misleading and goes against the grain of keeping it low cost.

No dispute that the charge2/4 devices are well engineered with a target in mind and if people are prepared to pay for it, that's fine.  But let's not give people the impression that it is a requirement for PAW, because it is not!

No problem with me if people want to make their own power source. Just please don't use these particular modules as the core, some of these modules from eBay are frankly dangerous. That may be quite an assertion but having actually seen them fail one I am happy with.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2016, 07:52:26 pm by JCurtis »
Designer and maker of charge4.harkwood.co.uk, smart universal USB chargers designed for aviation.  USB Type-A and USB-C power without the RF interference. Approved for EASA installs under CS-STAN too.

AndyM

Re: Radio inteference
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2019, 11:42:44 am »
Has anyone tried something like one of these to power their PA?

3A 15W DC 12V To DC 5V Dual USB Power Charger Adapter Converter Module

Few of them advertised on Ebay/Amazon and providing they aren't c*** quality and can provide a stable, interference free supply, would it be an option?

Paul_Sengupta

Re: Radio inteference
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2019, 12:06:47 pm »
If it's the CPT one, I'd be wary. CPT converters have been reported on here before as being sources of interference.