Use in an R44 Helicopter

[ryanheathheli]

Hi Everyone,

First time PilotAware user here. I was already looking into PAW and attended the talk at Sherburn-In-Elmet last year and finally got around to purchasing my Rosetta over Christmas.

I'd be interested to hear from anyone that has used one of these in a Robinson Helicopter. I flew as a passenger last week to try it out for the first time and got mixed results. I suspect this was partially down to the positioning, as I was in the back it had to go high up on the passenger door, but it is quite bulky with the suction mount and I am struggling to see where I could put it in the front without obscuring view or running the risk of it interfering with the pedals should it fall off the windscreen. Does it need to be in plain sight? Could it sit on the rear wall or would the engine behind obstruct it too much?

I don't want to sound too negative in this post as I love the idea of PAW and truly appreciate what you are trying to achieve and I am sure that a lot of my issues are me needing to work out how to get the best out of it, but the first annoying thing was a frequent reminder about two gliders on the ground at a local gliding club. They were both noted as doing 0kts so is there any way to discount these targets?

In general I was very pleased with the connection, my iPad had solid GPS the whole flight and the targets it did find came up in SkyDeamon (which is also new) which was great, but the main problem I had was I visually spotted 5-6 GA aircraft on my test flight which were not picked up by the device and I struggle to believe that none of them were using at least Mode C.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Especially around where and how to mount for best coverage.

Thanks
Ryan

[Seanhump]

Hi Ryan

I use PAW in a variety of different heli's depending on what's in the schedule on a given day.

I spend a lot of time in Robinsons, both the R44 and R22, and here's my take on mounting ...

My PAW is in the same style case as yours, with a battery pack strapped to it, and a RAM sucker mount fixed to the other side

If I'm flying from the left seat, or there is a passenger in the left seat with the dual controls removed, I mount the PAW on the canopy , low down and above the pedals using the sucker mount. keeping it close to the instrument binnacle reduces any 'blocking of the view. If in the right seat I sometimes put it on the canopy on the right side, just above my shin (again low down) with the ipad mini in front of it, closer to me … Using these positions I still have plenty of 'view' available ….

I then mount my ipad (I use a mini in  Robinsons, and an Air in other stuff), again on a RAM cradle with sucker mount,  on the canopy, above my knees and as close to the door as possible (it's well away from the controls)

Keeping the PAW at the front of the aircraft minimises the signal blocking from the engine (there will always be some blocking from the 540 / firewall / MRGB behind you)

I've attached a couple of pics (one from outside, one from inside) showing the PAW in a R22 (I use the same place in the R44), and will add a shot of the ipad / PAW when back at the heliport tomorrow so you can see what I'm getting at ..

One thing you don't mention is the type of suction mount you're using - a pic would be handy....

I've just received an updated Rosetta case from one of the engineering team with suckers that are more closely integrated into the case (and they're smaller), making the whole unit a lot smaller (than mine anyway ..) and I've just started to test it to see how it fits on a heli canopy, and also how the suckers stand up to the vibration - I'll carry on with the test for another week or so and report my findings …

Regarding the GA traffic that you saw, but PAW didn't, what are you're settings for distance / heights / modes etc etc from your config page ..? there may be something that needs a tweak in there, but do remember that Mode C traffic will only be picked up if it's been painted/interrogated by radar and is therefore broadcasting … I see a fair bit of GA from time to time that PAW doesn't spot - some I know don't have a transponder, and others have been out of sight / range of a radar installation.

Hope this helps

Cheers

Sean

[Dave jones]

Hi Ryan
Just a thought. Check that you have chosen
“Show bearing less targets” in the navigation
Page of SkyDemon. Hope this helps

[Ian Melville]

I struggle to believe that none of them were using at least Mode C.

As Dave said. Bearingless has to be enabled in both PAW and SD. Sean's comment is also valid as it is not uncommon to not get a Mode C signal from aircraft low or on the ground at airfields far from a  radar head.

Sadly there are still a few without, faulty, or just not turned on. Getting fewer though.

[ryanheathheli]

Sean,

Thanks for the amazing response. It's good to know I am not alone at least!

I've been using this mount for now, while I am trying it out, as recommended elsewhere on the forum:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0725H9JY4/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I'm using a dual-suction proper RAM mount for the iPad but that was expensive so wanted to see how things went first. I have the Rosetta which looks a lot bigger than the one you are using and has two aerials so I definitely need to find a slimmer mount. I notice there are a group of 4 slots that look like they could be a better way to secure it (as the thread kept getting loose) but I haven't seen an attachment for the RAM suction for anything like this.

I definitely had bearingless targets enabled as I saw a couple of those on the top right of the RADAR and I had my range set sufficiently as I was picking up other aircraft in the area. I was flying around EGCJ at night and there were 4 aircraft in the circuit/immediate area and only one was getting picked up. I would think they would all be getting hit by Doncaster Radar (and probably even LBA also) around there...

I will have to try with the new positioning, and I need to get a smaller power pack that can be strapped to it too. Anyone know what the power requirement is? I'd like to know what the smallest power pack I could get would be to run it for x amount of hours

Thanks guys, really nice to see people from the community helping out already. I really want to get this working!

Ryan

[Seanhump]

Hi Ryan

From your post ….

"I've been using this mount for now, while I am trying it out, as recommended elsewhere on the forum:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0725H9JY4/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I'm using a dual-suction proper RAM mount for the iPad but that was expensive so wanted to see how things went first. I have the Rosetta which looks a lot bigger than the one you are using and has two aerials so I definitely need to find a slimmer mount. I notice there are a group of 4 slots that look like they could be a better way to secure it (as the thread kept getting loose) but I haven't seen an attachment for the RAM suction for anything like this. "

My case is the same size as your Rosetta (it's the same case but clear - it just gets pulled apart frequently due to different parts being tested), and the antenna setup is the same too ...

I have one of the mounts you've linked to - its fine but I went with a slightly modified RAM sucker and a 1/4 thread adapter to mount to the case (again, pics tomorrow) - it ends up slightly closer to the canopy , and has less tendancy to wobble...

With a battery strapped on I'd not use the 4 slot style mounts due to the extra weight but your mileage may vary ... there isn't a stock RAM adapter for the 4 slots as far as I know ..

Power wise, the recommended ones are from Anker (Powercore) as they provide sufficient current to power the PAW - they are avaiable in different sizes and therefore different run-times - I use the Dell Power Companions and they work well for me ... they usualy run all day (12000 mah) with the 18000mah one going for around 18 hours ...

Cheers

[Seanhump]

Hi all.

As mentioned above, a few more pics showing the PAW mounted in the left side of a R22 (it's the same for a R44) along with a pic showing the mount with 4 holes on the rear of the PAW (the GoPro style one) …

Cheers
 

[ryanheathheli]

Great!

I'd be really interested to know where I can get one of the 1/4 thread adapters you are using then. From the pic you sent (attached), this looks like exactly what I need to stop it moving around as any sort of vibration seems to cause the cheap mount to loosen off and eventually just flop around.

I think I am going to go for an Anker PowerCore 10000. I think the longest day I have done start to finish so far is about 9 hours (3 hours flying) so if an 18000 pack lasts ~18 hours I should be good with this one and I can just leave it on all day. Also, the dimensions of this one seem to match the PAW pretty well (9.2cm x 6cm)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B019GJLER8/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?smid=A2PGPJL0BBLHLX&psc=1

I'm also looking at an Anker PowerLine Micro USB 1ft power cable, seen as the power supply is to be attached to it.
https://www.anker.com/uk/products/variant/powerline-1ft-micro-usb/A8131011
The specs do say 20AWG power wire with 18AWG sheathing I think should be fine, looking at this post:
http://forum.pilotaware.com/index.php?topic=9.0

Thanks so much for answering all my questions, it's been really helpful. I'm back in the air tuesday so looking forward to trying all this out.

Please let me know if you see any issues with the power/cable I chose.

Cheers
Ryan

p.s Finally found the "notify me of replies" option

[exfirepro]

Hi Ryan,

Your power supply choices will be fine. I have a PowerCore 10000 as well as their 13500 and 21500 units - though my PAW is normally powered from the plane (using one of Jeremy Curtis’s excellent Charge 4 Units). You might be stretching it a bit at 9 hours from the 10000, but it is an excellent choice size and weight wise if using sucker mounts, so I would give it a try. You could always get a second one later and carry it as a spare. Several of us have also used a very short power lead from China with a 90 degree plug at the PAW end without any problems when using a directly fitted battery pack. If you want to try one of them I can dig out the Ebay link for you.

Best Regards

Peter

[Seanhump]

The RAM sucker is held onto the PAW with the 1/4 thread screw and a small adapter to hold it to the sucker

I'll snap more pics of the components I used to do this and add later

Power wise, ditto what Peter said, but if you're looking for a GOOD cable, Juice Bitz do a short one with a right angle on the micro USB end - I use these (with a guard protecting the exposed micro USB plug) and they work as well as the supplied PAW cable - they are still 20AWG and available in a few colours (I use the purple for Micro USB and light blue for Apple / Lightning)

https://www.juicebitz.co.uk/0-5m-20awg-big-core-usb-type-a-male-to-90-degree-l-shape-right-angle-micro-b-fast-data-charger-cable-limited-edition

Cheers
Sean

[ryanheathheli]

For anyone coming to this post in the future, here's what I have so far:

Anker PowerCore 10000
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B072MH1434/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Anker Powerline 1ft Micro USB Cable
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B019PZPYK6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

25cm velcro Benristraps
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00CTWNW5M/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00__o00_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

As you can see from the pic attached, seems to work pretty well. The size of the 10k PowerCore matches the size of the Rosetta really well, it's the same width and comes up to just underneath the holes for the fan.

[Ian Melville]

Ryan. That places the battery directly over the GPS. I would not have thought a good idea.

[ryanheathheli]

Oh! Seemed to be what most people were doing. In fact, I'm sure that's what the guy that came to do the talk recommended??

Anyone else powering this way?

[Ian Melville]

Mine is on the same side but at the antenna end of the PAW. Having said that I am not 100% sure that is ideal either but seems to work.

[ryanheathheli]

@seanhump - I'd still love to see how you made your mount attachment, if you wouldn't mind snapping some pics. Thanks!

And thanks everyone for all the advice, I'm getting there!