Author Topic: MORE ADSB Antenna Stuff  (Read 10744 times)

PaulSS

MORE ADSB Antenna Stuff
« on: February 06, 2018, 07:31:33 am »
Some time ago I bought one of these antennas for the ADSB reception side of things:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ADS-B-RadarBox-SBS-RTL-SDR-1090MHz-ADSB-Magnetic-Antenna-Aerial/391638799640?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908103841%26meid%3D67593422c47a48f18d150eb3f8870d9e%26pid%3D100227%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D5%26mehot%3Dlo%26sd%3D391638799640%26itm%3D391638799640&_trksid=p2054502.c100227.m3827

I got this because it has an SMA connector, which will go nicely with the Flight Aware ADSB dongle I have. SMA connectors were bought in order to ensure less risk of the connections coming apart, in what will be a permanently mounted PAW.

The antenna above is going to live inside the tail end of a fabric covered aircraft. It has a 30mm magnetic base.

My question is (drumroll), does this antenna need a ground plane to sit on? If so, I assume it will be about 140mm square (1/4 wavelength being 69mm).

I'm asking because I've become a bit confused with too much reading. I know I need a ground plane for a transmitting antenna (such as my transponder) but I really don't know if I need one for a receive-only antenna.

I've also been reading that the ground plane (when used) should have the same dimensions as the antenna length which, although a multiple, seems to be at odds with other wise words that counsel 1/4 wavelength.

I know I've done too much research and have just confused myself, so maybe someone could set me straight (using simple words). Thank you  :).

Keithvinning

Re: MORE ADSB Antenna Stuff
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2018, 08:49:53 am »
This antenna doesn't need a ground plane.

PaulSS

Re: MORE ADSB Antenna Stuff
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2018, 08:55:18 am »
Thanks Keith  :)

Keithvinning

Re: MORE ADSB Antenna Stuff
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2018, 11:07:38 am »
Sorry my previous post was short.
The antenna that you have bought is just a higher gain version of the one supplied with the PilotAware Classic but with an SMA connector rather than an MCX.

If you mount this vertically in the back of the Eurofox when you build it, you will, as The Who said see for miles and miles and miles and miles and miles. 1090MHz that is.

If anyone has a metal aircraft then a monopole is better as the whole aircraft acts as a ground plane. On my Sportscruiser I use a monopole tuned to 1090 and receive ADSB signals over 200Km away when I am in the hangar. Absolutely over the top for electronic conspicuity but great to know that you have a strong signal.

If anyone wants a 1090 tuned antenna for metal aircraft drop me a PM.

PaulSS

Re: MORE ADSB Antenna Stuff
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2018, 11:33:27 am »
No need to apologise; you did exactly what I asked, with a concise and accurate answer. I am grateful for that  ;)

However, I do appreciate the extra information and the news that my proposed plan is a viable one. All my reading here has convinced me of the receiving capabilities of the powerful ADSB signals, so I think your Who reference may well prove true. The P3I antenna is going to be externally mounted and will have its own ground plane on the opposite side of the aircraft from the transponder antenna (basically, one underneath each seat). I realise there will be compromises to be made regarding the siting but I think this will be the best position I can manage, whilst ceding to my OCD which would prevent things being stuck on the windows  :)

Keithvinning

Re: MORE ADSB Antenna Stuff
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2018, 12:42:27 pm »
Paul

That is exactly the correct thing to do. the bigger the ground pale the better. This is what I do in my sports cruise and get 40+Km on PAW and 200+ on ADSB more than enough for EC.

trident

Re: MORE ADSB Antenna Stuff
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2018, 10:57:01 pm »
Hello Paul,

Is that aerial you've bought from eBay a 5/8 over 1/4 wave co-linear? It looks like it from the photo on eBay. If so, then I am pretty sure it should be used with a groundplane as the radiation pattern will be severely affected without one. However as Keith mentioned, it will probably provide signals that are too far away to worry about for your purposes anyway.

Any groundplane should be a minimum of 1/4 wavelength at the operating frequency and the bigger the better within reason. A larger groundplane has the effect of lowering the radiation angle and effectively acts as a mirror for the radiating element. A groundplane is not just required for a transmitting aerial, but also for a receiving-only aerial as they both work in exactly the same way.

You mention that you are going to mount the P3I aerial on a groundplane, but I think I am right in saying that this aerial (if it's the one supplied with the purchased PA unit?) is a halfwave sleeve-dipole so doesn't need a groundplane. The same is also true for the supplied 1090MHz aerial as that's also a sleeve-dipole.

https://www.pulseelectronics.com/antenna_basic_concepts/

Frank,
G0CFD

PaulSS

Re: MORE ADSB Antenna Stuff
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2018, 12:44:46 am »
Hi Frank,

Thank you for your advice in my quest for knowledge. I'm afraid I have no idea of the type of antenna. It says it is tuned for 1090MHz but apart from that I am ignorant. I can't even look at it in detail because it currently resides at my sister-in-law's house in England, whilst I'm still in Oz. To be honest, I don't think making it a ground plane will be a problem as it'll give it something robust to sit on, rather than balancing on the steel fuselage frame. From what you've written and I've read previously, if it is mounted on a sheet of steel (for instance) then there is no need to ground the antenna shield to the ground plane as it is not transmitting. The ground plane is only been used to better reflect the wigglies into the antenna. So, I cut out a decent sized bit of metal and attach the antenna to it using its magnetic base and all will be well.

I am using a different antenna for the P3I. I'd read up all I could about dipoles, monopoles etc and the instructions for permanently mounting the PAW but decided to go for the antenna below as it is a very neat unit and is meant to perform well.

https://www.gps.co.uk/antenna-exterior-gav-868-flarm/p-0-2024/

In the photo below you can see the ground plane that is normally used for the transponder. I shall have one of those for the transponder and another, under the left seat, for the P3I antenna.

Thanks again for your input; every day is a school day  ;D




trident

Re: MORE ADSB Antenna Stuff
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2018, 11:15:09 pm »
Hello Paul,

OK being in Oz -  we are suffering the depths of winter at the moment and the temperature here in south Lincolnshire is forecast to drop to about -5 degrees Celsius tonight!

The aerial certainly looks like a colinear-type and the magnetic-base electrically couples the earthy-side to the groundplane by capacitance. In this instance there is no need for a physical electrical connection, so just attaching it to a steel sheet is sufficient. The effect of the groundplane is exactly the same whether the aerial is for transmitting or receiving. The only real difference is that if it's used for transmitting, the electrical matching of the aerial (high VSWR) to the transmitter may be bad enough to damage the transmitter output stages. That's why you've seen comments that differ for transmitting and receiving aerials. For a receive-only setup, although the effect on radiation pattern and electrical matching is exactly the same, the receiver will still work but not optimally. It's surprising what you can use for an aerial to receive radio signals, but when you compare what you are receiving on a piece of "damp string" to a properly configured and tuned aerial there is usually a vast difference.

As for the GAV-868 aerial, I think it must be a shortened 1/4 wavelength - the website doesn't give much away other than the height of 70mm which is far too short for a 1/4 wavelength at 868MHz. A 1/4 wave at 868MHz is about 86mm uncorrected.  That would mean it needs a groundplane, so yes, mounting it on an alloy groundplane is perfect. It appears to be designed to mount directly onto a typically metal airframe.

The GAV-868 seems expensive for what it is. A standard 1/4 wave aerial cut to the correct length (about 82mm corrected) would work just as well if not better than the GAV-868 (larger aperture), but then the GAV-868 can be fitted with no configuring and it's guaranteed to work out of the box.

You mention mounting the aerials within a couple of feet of each other, but I'm not sure about the minimum separation required between the transponder aerial and the P3I one. A transponder transmits typically 100 or 200 watts or so depending on model and class and I'm not sure if the P3I RF input stages could handle this sort of power close by repeatedly, so does anyone else reading this (Maybe Keith?) have any thoughts about aerial location/separation?

exfirepro

Re: MORE ADSB Antenna Stuff
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2018, 01:30:59 am »
Frank,

Sound advice!  IIRC the general advice for antenna placement is 'at least a 1/4 wavelength apart' (which at the longest wavelength we are concerned with here is still actually pretty close).

I have never experienced any issues with running the P3i (869MHz) or 1090MHz SDR antenna within a few feet of my ADSB / Transponder antenna (approx 100watts out from a TT21), though when advising / assisting others I do try to keep them as far apart as I can (not easy in a flexwing) and would always suggest keeping them as far apart as is reasonably practicable, bearing in mind our other priorities and constraints.
 
Regards

Peter

PaulSS

Re: MORE ADSB Antenna Stuff
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2018, 03:18:20 am »
Thanks again chaps  :)  I have read and inwardly digested the advice on distancing antennas (both in this thread and the countless others I've interrupted) and will certainly try to space them as widely as possible. As ever, the constraints of mounting the ground plane etc leads to the inevitable compromise. The transponder and ADSB will be miles apart, so no snags with the transponder swamping the ADSB reception. Unfortunately the transponder (Trig TT21) antenna will be a lot closer to the P3I but I'm still pretty sure I can distance them by a little more than the 1/4 wavelength of the P3I, at approx 34.5cm. If I can get them further apart I will.

MikeD

Re: MORE ADSB Antenna Stuff
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2018, 06:42:47 pm »
Yet more antenna questions (not fixed installation) .

I'm contemplating changing the ADS-B antenna (standard PAW supplied one) for one of the antenna listed below:

NooElec ADS-B Discovery 5dBi (High Gain) Antenna Bundle - 1090MHz & 978MHz
19cm (7.5") long, 5dBi, with a VSWR of 1.5:1 or better

NooElec ADS-B Discovery 3dBi Antenna Bundle - 1090MHz & 978MHz
11cm (4.25") long, 3dBi, with a VSWR @ 978MHz of 2:1 or better.

In view of the relatively high power of 1090 MHz ADSB, Mode C and Mode S signals will the shorter
antenna (11cm (4.25") long, 3dBi) be a better choice?

Mike

exfirepro

Re: MORE ADSB Antenna Stuff
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2018, 11:01:15 pm »
Mike,

Kind of depends on how you are connecting it to the PAW. If you intend to attach it direct, I'd go for the 3dBi which will be lighter and will therefore place less strain on the MCX connector on the SDR Dongle and the USB into the PAW. If you are putting it on an extension lead, this is less of an issue, though again the 3dBi version should be absolutely fine and will draw in aircraft from well past the distance we need to see them.

IMHO, at 1090 MHz, higher gain antennas are only necessary for the 'Plane Spotters' (no disrespect intended). Many of us have already cut down our existing 1090MHz antennas to 69mm or so without any detriment.

Regards

Peter

MikeD

Re: MORE ADSB Antenna Stuff
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2018, 09:57:59 am »
Peter,

Many thanks for the valuable information.  I will go ahead with the smaller antenna at 3dBi

Mike

PaulSS

Re: MORE ADSB Antenna Stuff
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2018, 10:45:12 am »
I think, yet again, that I may be over-complicating things so just want to confirm one point and ask another question.

Above I wrote of the plan to use a fancy ADSB antenna and discovered that it does need a ground plane. Then I was looking at Mike's post and thought of a different solution (at this point everyone slaps their foreheads). As I understand it (please let me know if I'm wrong) an end-fed dipole does not need a ground plane. I still intend to mount the ADSB antenna inside the rear of a fabric-covered fuselage but, instead of having a ground plane attached (somehow) to the frame and the fancy antenna on top of that, I thought an end-fed dipole could be vertically mounted so much easier with a clamp and would do the same job. Is this correct?

And then I read of a USB extension cable being used betwixt the PAW and an ADSB dongle and I thunk a bit more  :o  I have a Flight Aware ADSB dongle. At one end is the USB connector for the PAW and at the other is an SMA connector to the antenna. Does anyone know how a USB extension cable and a coax cable compare, since I thought of a couple of scenarios? In one scenario the ADSB dongle would plug into the PAW and the coax cable would then lead to the back of the aircraft and the antenna. In the second scenario, imagine a very short coax from the antenna to the ADSB dongle, which is now mounted close-by the antenna. From the dongle, instead of a coax running to the PAW (which is behind the panel), a long USB cable would be used.....I really should see if such a beast exists before I postulate further...... In my imagined scenarios, let's compare a 3m USB cable with a 3m coax cable, of the sort available in the PAW shop (which I just so happen to have). What have I got wrong this time  ;D

They do exist: https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Extension-Cable-Male-Female/dp/B00NH12O5I/ref=pd_cp_147_2?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00NH12O5I&pd_rd_r=TA65QN3ADJ9BJH9DR0SB&pd_rd_w=XQzrO&pd_rd_wg=ZpLng&psc=1&refRID=TA65QN3ADJ9BJH9DR0SB
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 10:50:17 am by PaulSS »