Author Topic: Transmit power and range  (Read 58717 times)

JCurtis

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #60 on: October 13, 2015, 08:17:59 pm »
3.2nm (5k) away at 1750ft.  .

I'd be MORE that happy with those numbers providing I can have the antenna in the cockpit.

Well mine was sitting in an upstairs window, not sure where it was in the aircraft.
Designer and maker of charge4.harkwood.co.uk, smart universal USB chargers designed for aviation.  USB Type-A and USB-C power without the RF interference. Approved for EASA installs under CS-STAN too.

The Westmorland Flyer

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #61 on: October 13, 2015, 08:28:45 pm »
If it can't penetrate one layer then surely if an antenna is mounted underneath an a/c the anyone above and behind will not see the signal will they as that will mean penetrating at least 2 layers??
That's essentially correct. It's why, for example, transponder antennas are mounted on the underbelly, so that they can be seen by the radars on the ground. At lower frequencies, e.g. air band, the problem is less severe because the aircraft is relatively small in wavelength terms. So we can get away with mounting air band antennas on the top of the fuselage of a small aircraft.
John
G-JONL, Sportcruiser, Carlisle

ianfallon

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #62 on: October 14, 2015, 03:45:50 pm »
Ok. Ok.  I'll chill.  I'll fly over mig29's field on Thursday and check out air/ground reception.

There's a reasonable chance I will be flying overhead his field on Thu (tomorrow) too !

Paul_Sengupta

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #63 on: October 14, 2015, 09:31:38 pm »
Has anyone tried any of the slightly larger antennae coupled with the ARF?

This sort of thing?

Admin

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #64 on: October 15, 2015, 08:54:27 am »
Has anyone tried any of the slightly larger antennae coupled with the ARF?

This sort of thing?

Hi Paul,
I purchased one of these a while back, when I test the power, the RSSI numbers get worse, I suspect the loss in the cable is greater than the gain in the antenna. Bear in mind its a pretty long cable
Thx
Lee

rg

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #65 on: October 15, 2015, 06:59:47 pm »
I flew a low orbit on mig29's field earlier. My paw (uses the ARF, shield with sma by jcurtis) was behind the seat. I flew directly over Gerry and I got and indication of his device at -0.5 but was almost directly overhead before it appeared. To be host a little title disappointed but if I only get 500ft warning from a p3i target I'll take that as it's better than no warning at all.

Mig29fuk

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  • G-MYUP. White Ox Mead Airstrip. Near Bath
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Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #66 on: October 15, 2015, 07:12:07 pm »
Russ Hi!
Thanks for flying over. Only to compound your disappointment and mine...I got NO indication or target from you.
Both my PAW could see each other. I did a very crude on the ground check of range.
With one unit in the car and the other on table outside the Hangar i managed to maintain target for about 250Metres line of sight whilst driving away.
When Unit placed on car roof and then driven up strip I got about 450Metres until out of line of sight.
Bit perplexing.
Used ARF Shield and SMA soldered to board on one and standard early build for other.
ADS-B worked OK with Medi-Vac Helicopter picked up at 700' AGL at 15NM.One target in North Sea! About 175NM to the East?

Tomorrow the RV6 goes to Thruxton and I'll put one Unit into it and have tracked from the ground and see what those results will be.
Regards
Gerry
G-MYUP
White Ox Mead Airstrip
Bath. England

Paul_Sengupta

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #67 on: October 15, 2015, 07:18:21 pm »
I purchased one of these a while back, when I test the power, the RSSI numbers get worse, I suspect the loss in the cable is greater than the gain in the antenna. Bear in mind its a pretty long cable

Yes, I feared that, especially as I received my ARF (with shield) today and found that the supplied antenna is reasonably large to start with.

Though it may be better having this (or other) antenna up high rather than trying to use the PAW on the floor of the aeroplane with the antenna attached directly to it.

Regarding the announcement about the ARF today, have you measured the output power into a dummy load? It looks awfully small. When I was looking to build something similar, I looked at some 500mW modules from China and they seemed rather bigger than this module.

rg

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #68 on: October 15, 2015, 07:27:24 pm »
Wow.  That was a fairly steep turn I would have thought there would almost have been line of sight between units as I turned back towards you.  :-\

Well. Ads-b showing in skydeamon is better than nothing ....

Looks like a lovely field you have there.....

Robski

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #69 on: October 22, 2015, 11:42:15 am »
To be host a little title disappointed
???
The productive test playing up again?
Rob
If the good Lord had intended man to fly He would have given him more money.

FrankT

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #70 on: October 27, 2015, 08:16:26 am »
868Mhz realistic requirements............

Realistically we require 868 to establish rock solid 2 way contact air to air at a distance of 5 miles anything more is a bonus.

ADS-B units are designed as Air-Ground even the small units run 130Watts into a compromise antenna to give a design range of 150miles.

Is it possible to achieve this using the 868 band? I believe it probably is but we would need to utilize the maximum permitted power output in the High 868 500mw and use a descent antenna eg. a v- rabbit or at least a dipole for those that have ground plane problems...

So are these parameters achievable and is it permitted? 

Paul_Sengupta

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #71 on: October 28, 2015, 11:46:22 am »
Well, when everything works, we're getting 5 miles plus with 63mW (or is it 100mW?) and the rubber antenna stuck on the coaming.

We're allowed 500mW.

The Westmorland Flyer

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #72 on: October 28, 2015, 03:08:17 pm »
Frank makes some very valid points, notably the three orders of magnitude higher power run by transponders and the fact that the antenna (external!) is looking at the ground. 868MHz is only marginally better at getting through "stuff" than 1090MHz, so most of the gain has to be made elsewhere, either by power or by antenna design/location. Power is severely limited by license conditions, so the only option available to us is to improve the all-round visibility of the antenna and (perhaps) its gain.

A dipole is quite small (span about 17cm (6.5")) and it's easy to construct. A ground plane antenna is nearly as good and only half that size but needs metalwork to work against. The real problem is where to put it, so it can see all around. Atop the tail fin is fairly good, as is a composite wing tip but both require lengthy coaxial cable runs, potentially losing some of the benefit through cable losses. A ground plane antenna on top and one underneath the fuselage would work very well but is difficult to engineer and to integrate (power splitters and so on).

If we accept that most risks come from straight ahead give or take 30 degrees then we can get away with something in the cockpit, e.g. on the coaming, but that will be severely compromised in other directions, especially behind and below. It is something of an intractable problem and not something we have had to worry about in the past with other types of avionics. If this was a simple problem we'd have fixed it by now!
John
G-JONL, Sportcruiser, Carlisle

FrankT

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #73 on: October 28, 2015, 06:49:09 pm »
True 5 miles Is possible with around 90mw I think the ARF is capable of. What we need is a Rock Solid signal even when theres line of sight issues cockpit positioning etc.

Theres only a 25khz section of the band that permits 500mw can someone confirm the ARF is transmiting in that section.

Given 400+ mw and a half decent antenna that negates the need for decent ground planes unless you have a metal aircraft and want to start cutting holes in it... (not forgetting Mod Status) I believe 5miles minimum certainty contact is achievable.

Assuming licence restrictions are OK we need a bolt on narrow band amplifier accepting the input of the ARF module or even the XRF which would be cheaper. Shouldnt be too difficult I wouldn't have thought except for cooling issues if running a continuous amp.

Another thought is how good is the ARF receiver would a decent antenna and a preamp work or would we swamp the ARF RX.

Light bulb has just gone off..... must contact a friend who used to work in this field designing kit for the mobile phone network and P2P communication systems....

JCurtis

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #74 on: October 28, 2015, 07:13:48 pm »
True 5 miles Is possible with around 90mw I think the ARF is capable of. What we need is a Rock Solid signal even when theres line of sight issues cockpit positioning etc.

Theres only a 25khz section of the band that permits 500mw can someone confirm the ARF is transmiting in that section.

Given 400+ mw and a half decent antenna that negates the need for decent ground planes unless you have a metal aircraft and want to start cutting holes in it... (not forgetting Mod Status) I believe 5miles minimum certainty contact is achievable.

Assuming licence restrictions are OK we need a bolt on narrow band amplifier accepting the input of the ARF module or even the XRF which would be cheaper. Shouldnt be too difficult I wouldn't have thought except for cooling issues if running a continuous amp.

Another thought is how good is the ARF receiver would a decent antenna and a preamp work or would we swamp the ARF RX.

Light bulb has just gone off..... must contact a friend who used to work in this field designing kit for the mobile phone network and P2P communication systems....

Yes, the ARF operates within the licence free ISM high power band.

The ARF is two products combined.  An SRF module (the small square board) which is the actual Tx/Rx IC and is a transmitter in it's own right.  This SRF is mounted to another PCB with a combined Tx Booster and Rx high gain amplifier.  This assembly is called ARF by WirelessThings.  Basically it is a TI CC1101 & CC1190 loosely following the TI reference design.  The only thing that can be done with the ARF module is antenna choice.  The TI reference design and the associated documents state the limitations of the design, they are part of the 'low cost' Ti Sub 1GHz chipset range.  Other variants are available that can run at higher powers - these are often deployed within the certified modules available from various (huge) companies.

The last RF stuff I was really involved that I can mention with was the deployment of AirWave for the Police, that is all based on TETRA.  The implementation was "fun", especially the integration into everything else. Ah, the memories....
Designer and maker of charge4.harkwood.co.uk, smart universal USB chargers designed for aviation.  USB Type-A and USB-C power without the RF interference. Approved for EASA installs under CS-STAN too.