Author Topic: Mode S Height Indication  (Read 6437 times)

brinzlee

Mode S Height Indication
« on: August 15, 2016, 10:30:40 am »
Thought I would fire this one out there.....I have been asked this question by a fellow user but as yet haven't noticed it on my PAW....When he is flying and reading the mode S contact  rings on his SkyDemon either green, amber or red there is no indication of height of the traffic above the ring......but on the ground when stationary the height is displayed.....is this a bug or something he is doing wrong
Oh and one other thing.....I had the PAW set up on the ground and a few people had logged onto the device with their iphones......and were tracking with their respective copies of SkyDemon.....the PAW was also plugged into a powered speaker for audio alerts so they could all hear.....and the audio alerts were repeated for however many people were logged on to the PAW....at one point 5 people were logged in and each message was repeated 5 times.....then one logged off so it was repeated 4 times.....etc etc......Is that right or another potential bug ?

Thanks
Brinsley
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 10:35:46 am by brinzlee »

Admin

Re: Mode S Height Indication
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2016, 06:07:06 pm »
Quote
Thought I would fire this one out there.....I have been asked this question by a fellow user but as yet haven't noticed it on my PAW....When he is flying and reading the mode S contact  rings on his SkyDemon either green, amber or red there is no indication of height of the traffic above the ring......but on the ground when stationary the height is displayed.....is this a bug or something he is doing wrong

PilotAware is sending the same messages irrespective of whether it is moving or not.
So either SkyDemon is filtering this info OR your fellow user is mistaken.
I think we would need to see a snapshot of the SkyDemon display, and the associated .trk file to investigate.

Quote
Oh and one other thing.....I had the PAW set up on the ground and a few people had logged onto the device with their iphones......and were tracking with their respective copies of SkyDemon.....the PAW was also plugged into a powered speaker for audio alerts so they could all hear.....and the audio alerts were repeated for however many people were logged on to the PAW....at one point 5 people were logged in and each message was repeated 5 times.....then one logged off so it was repeated 4 times.....etc etc......Is that right or another potential bug ?

Hmm this seems very strange.
were these Mode-S, or ADS-B mesages, ADS-B would say "traffic 9 o'clock ...", Mode-S "warning, traffic ..."

Thx
Lee

brinzlee

Re: Mode S Height Indication
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2016, 06:40:30 pm »
I have seen a snapshot of the screen without the height indication....I thought he was mistaken too....so I showed him on the ground what to look out for location wise at the 12 o clock of the ring.....but he is reporting that this does not show in the air.....If the filtering was on, surely the ring wouldn't be there at all...

As far as the audio alerts are concerned, I can confirm it was mode S and am fairly sure it was P3i alerts too.....unfortunately nobody was ADSB out equipped to check that

Thanks Lee......I will try and get the TRK file from him but he is going away for a week so might have to delay that....

P.S Hope you had a nice holiday !!

Brinsley

AerialRob

Re: Mode S Height Indication
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2016, 07:58:27 pm »
My SkyDemon display also does not show height whilst airborne.
I have attached a screen shot showing a mode S contact with registration and  location output which was higher than myself and a mode S ring.
The ring first appeared red and I put this down to me manouvering trying to gain visual on the mode S aircraft above me.
At first I thought this was possibly the same aircraft creating this but ATC advised an aircraft was below me and it eventually became visible.
I have another screen shot taken on the ground which has height info at the 12 o'clock position.


AlanG

Re: Mode S Height Indication
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2016, 08:38:07 pm »
Hi Rob

I'm not a SD user but it looks to me like you're suffering the same fate as other SD users have been reporting that the Rel Alt is difficult to see in SD.  If you look at your screen shot very carefully it does show the Rel Alt -1.6 Partially hidden by your track line.

The other traffic depicted with the reg. and above you is an ADSB target with positional info so therefore is depicted on your moving map as the aircraft symbol.  I suspect the warning from ATC was for the Mode S Ring target around your aircraft and this is the one you eventually eyeballed.
An easy solution to your problem is to switch to EasyVFR when your SD subscription expires.   ;D

Regards
Alan

AlanG

Re: Mode S Height Indication
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2016, 08:49:20 pm »
Rob
Another thought which just occured to me is.....Does the textual Alt Difference move up or down the Ring depending on whether it is negative or positive to your own level.  That would explain this one being lower down on the ring hence why you didn't spot it among the screen clutter.

Alan

AerialRob

Re: Mode S Height Indication
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2016, 09:11:39 pm »
Thanks Alan
I hadn't noticed the REL ALT in the track line  possibly due to screen size and aging eyes.
The higher mode S contact has the REL ALT in yellow background which helps .
I'll see what happens when a mode S contact is alerted  at a higher level to myself .


Admin

Re: Mode S Height Indication
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2016, 09:28:19 pm »
There is a thread about this very topic on the SkyDemon website, I am pretty sure that Tim Dawson has a fix for this in the pipeline

Thx
Lee

exfirepro

Re: Mode S Height Indication
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2016, 09:29:58 pm »
Hi Rob,

As Alan says, G-WTSN is NOT a Mode S contact, it is either an ADSB contact, or a P3i contact with a different 'GroupID' to yourself (which wouldn't show the P3i '#' brackets). I would need to see your traffic screen to confirm which.

The 'bearingless' Mode S target - which would have been giving an audio warning from the PAW audio output of 'Traffic Danger' just before the red ring appeared then 'Traffic Alert' just before it changed to 'amber' - indicating that it was moving away from you - clearly has its relative altitude (-1.6) - i.e. 1,600 feet below you in the standard SkyDemon notification position, which is in your 12 o'clock. The problem is that in the current SkyDemon version the text for bearingless targets is currently very 'fine' with no background contrast, which makes it very difficult to see. Lee, myself and others have identified this to SkyDemon and have been working with them to address this issue, as a result of which this problem should be fully addressed in the next SkyDemon release.

Hope this helps clarify the position.

Brinsley,

I think the multiple alerts when multiple devices were connected was probably purely coincidental. The multiple alerts could have been from multiple targets but this can also happen due to varying received signal strength from a bearingless target aircraft - initially causing it to break one of the alert thresholds and trigger an audio alert, then dropping back below the threshold, then rising back through the trigger point again. Unfortunately there is no easy way of preventing repeat alerts in these circumstances, however in practice this usually happens due to local screening - e.g. when the aircraft is in the circuit and the PAW is as in your case stationary on the ground (especially if inside a building). Fortunately it happens fairly infrequently in flight.

Regards

Peter

AerialRob

Re: Mode S Height Indication
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2016, 10:49:48 pm »
Thanks Peter for the further clarification.
So a mode S aircraft will only be shown by the different coloured circles (and audio alerts) even if it is providing its location information ?
I haven't got the audio set up sorted at the moment.


Admin

Re: Mode S Height Indication
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2016, 10:55:59 pm »
Hi Rob

Mode-S does not provide positional information.

Mode-S ES (Extended Squitter), ie ADS-B,
And PilotAware P3I
Do provide positional information

Any source providing positional (ie deterministic) data, will have its position displayed
Sources such as Mode-A,C and S, are non deterministic, and do not provide their position, in the csse of C and S, their barometric height is known accurate to within 100ft increments

Thx
Lee
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 11:01:13 pm by Admin »

AerialRob

Re: Mode S Height Indication
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2016, 11:03:30 pm »
Thanks Lee
Just my terminology then .
Mode-S with location information becomes Mode-S ES which equals ADS-B.

exfirepro

Re: Mode S Height Indication
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2016, 11:07:26 pm »
Correct Rob.

Peter

Admin

Re: Mode S Height Indication
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2016, 11:37:08 pm »
Sorry one update,
Mode-C accurate to within 100ft,
Mode-S pretty sure accurate to within 25ft

Thx
Lee

peteD

Re: Mode S Height Indication
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2016, 05:56:37 am »
Think the accuracy depends on the encoder connected to txpr. I have mode s(with adsb out)  but encoder is +/- 100ft(parallel connection, think later are serial +/-25)
Regards
Pete
PS think mode s (es) can contain far more info than just adsb out(selected alt etc)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2016, 06:04:28 am by peteD »