Author Topic: FL*RM Integration - Beta Testers  (Read 47672 times)

Admin

FL*RM Integration - Beta Testers
« on: July 17, 2016, 03:13:51 pm »
I am looking for users with access to Flarm, preferably Flarm Mouse.
I am in the process of performing an integration of Flarm into PilotAware, and I think I pretty much have this working.

The way this works is by having an RS232 into PilotAware from a Flarm unit, which will provide the Navigation tool with data from

- P3I (PilotAware)
- ADS-B
- Mode-S
- Flarm

all help gratefully received

Thx
Lee

julianwebb

Re: FL*RM Integration - Beta Testers
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2016, 04:01:47 pm »
Hi Lee

I'm just in the last stages of putting a PowerFlarm Core in (already ADS-B out).

Not sure if PFC will work with what you describe as it sounds like the feed into PAW is what would normally go to the display? But happy to help if I can.

Just a thought:- This would also be an expensive way to get FLARM targets? I think a PF mouse is £450? OGN are allowed to decode the Flarm signal and display it on the internet cant we just decode and display without transmitting anything in the same way OGN do? I honestly cant see why Flarm would object as PAW will not have the capability required by a Glider?

regards

julianwebb

Re: FL*RM Integration - Beta Testers
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2016, 04:08:52 pm »
PS

It might be good if FLARM could also process PAW targets? If there is a big enough installed base it might be a good option for the FLarm customer base in the UK?

Admin

Re: FL*RM Integration - Beta Testers
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2016, 04:38:36 pm »
Hi Julian

Many thanks for the offer.

Quote
Not sure if PFC will work with what you describe as it sounds like the feed into PAW is what would normally go to the display? But happy to help if I can.

That is correct, the intention here is really to give an upgrade of a Flarm Mouse, to something equivalent to
Code: [Select]
Flarm
ADS-B
Mode-S
P3I
Butterfly Connect
Multiple Tablet Connection
Voice Audio Warning

so a £200 upgrade for something that is probably Approx £2000 for a PFC ?

So you are quite right, you would lose your Flarm display - but of course you would benefit from having an integrated display in SkyDemon/RunwayHD/EasyVFR/AirNavPro.

Quote
It might be good if FLARM could also process PAW targets? If there is a big enough installed base it might be a good option for the FLarm customer base in the UK?

I hope that is the logical conclusion

Thx
Lee
« Last Edit: July 19, 2016, 04:40:38 pm by Admin »

AlanG

Re: FL*RM Integration - Beta Testers
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2016, 12:40:39 pm »
Hi Lee

Just to follow on with this and bearing in mind the recent email exchange with Rob Weijers yourself and me regarding the flarm pin code in EVFR, will the fact that different pin codes being used in the various nav systems have any effect on their ability to see flarm targets in this way.  I think this was Rob's concern that if the pin is set to 6002 for the correct messages from PAW then a flarm unit will not "talk" to EVFR. as it requires pin 6001.
Sorry if i'm muddying the water but this had occurred to me prior to this post.

Regards
Alan

Ian Melville

Re: FL*RM Integration - Beta Testers
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2016, 01:02:02 pm »
I would be surprised if FLARM messages were just passed through the PAW. I would have thought the PAW will take what it wants from the FLARM connection and append it to the existing strings of messages.  That way it would not matter what Pin FLARM required as it would not be 'talking' to the navigation software?

Admin

Re: FL*RM Integration - Beta Testers
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2016, 01:42:49 pm »
Hi Alan

Just to follow on with this and bearing in mind the recent email exchange with Rob Weijers yourself and me regarding the flarm pin code in EVFR, will the fact that different pin codes being used in the various nav systems have any effect on their ability to see flarm targets in this way.  I think this was Rob's concern that if the pin is set to 6002 for the correct messages from PAW then a flarm unit will not "talk" to EVFR. as it requires pin 6001.
Sorry if i'm muddying the water but this had occurred to me prior to this post.

Lets be clear on the reason for the 'personality' pin code.
Firstly this only affects bearingles targets
EasyVFR uses some *enhanced* syntax for bearingless targets in order to produce the banner containing the relative vertical separation and threat level (Red/Amber/Green)
This same syntax is not handled in SkyDemon in the same manner.

So in order to support these two alternative message formats in SkyDemon and EasyVFR (and possibly more in the future), the value of the pin code is used to format the message specifically for the NAV tool.

This will not affect the Flarm-IN interface, I will post separately on this
Thx
Lee

Admin

Re: FL*RM Integration - Beta Testers
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2016, 01:50:56 pm »
I would be surprised if FLARM messages were just passed through the PAW. I would have thought the PAW will take what it wants from the FLARM connection and append it to the existing strings of messages. 

This is correct, the Flarm messages are parsed and entered into a common database, in the same way that I use a common database for Mode-S/ADS-B/P3I.
This common databases is then used to send messages to the NAV tools.
In addition I am using the GPS NMEA messages, which means you can unplug the GPS dongle, with a Flarm-IN connection

Quote
That way it would not matter what Pin FLARM required as it would not be 'talking' to the navigation software?

A bit of confusion here I think, Flarm knows nothing about a pin code.
The pin code is used to connect to a WiFi Butterfly Connect, which converts WiFi<->RS232

Thx
Lee

Richard

Re: FL*RM Integration - Beta Testers
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2016, 08:49:09 pm »
By adding a FLA*M mouse to PAW we will see FLA*M targets. Will the FLARM mouse provide mode a/c bearingless targets alerts? Or have they not marstered tend that yet.
Richard.
Europa XS

exfirepro

Re: FL*RM Integration - Beta Testers
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2016, 12:38:44 pm »
Hi Richard,

I don't know why nobody has answered your query yet, so will try to do so! Unfortunately, the simple answer is NO - AFAIK the only Flarm devices which claim to decode and provide transponder alerts are the PowerFlarm Core (Flarm + ADSB + Mode C/S - c.£1350 plus display & delivery) and the Air Avionics TRX 1500 (Flarm + ADSB + Mode S - c.£1500 plus display & delivery). Both of these also need specific interfaces to connect them to a nav display. Neither claim to provide Mode 'A' cover (which from the difficulty we are experiencing trying to get reliable results for Mode 'C', I can fully appreciate).

What Lee is trying to do WRT Flarm is collect already decoded data from the output of  the user's existing Flarm receiver (which is perfectly legal within Flarm's terms and conditions as you own the Flarm unit) and use PilotAware to filter and combine this data with PilotAware's own data before presenting the combined results to your Nav device.

For 'existing' Flarm owners, this will add Mode S (and C if/when we get it running), ADSB and P3i, plus a way of WiFi-ing the data onto a Nav System and as Lee said above access to multiple tablets and voice alerts. Hopefully this will also increase the uptake of PilotAware by existing Flarm users - allowing us to see them via P3i.

For PilotAware Users who don't yet have Flarm, they will effectively be able to add full Flarm Transmit and Receive to an existing PilotAware / Nav System installation for the cost of the most basic Flarm Unit (currently the basic Flarm mouse - available from about £450).

Hope this makes things clearer.

Regards

Peter
« Last Edit: August 03, 2016, 08:44:17 am by exfirepro »

Richard

Re: FL*RM Integration - Beta Testers
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2016, 06:12:52 pm »
Thank you Peter yes all makes sense now. I have considered F*ARM befor PAW came along but now I'm sticking to PAW but have considered add in the F*ARM mouse as Lee said in another post that it can also provides the GPS for PAW too

Thank you
Richard.
Europa XS

exfirepro

Re: FL*RM Integration - Beta Testers
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2016, 07:08:38 pm »
Hi again Richard,

Yes that's correct, PilotAware would also be able to take its GPS data from an attached FLARM device in the same way that our NAV devices currently take this information from PAW, but hold fire just now until Lee gets a chance to get everything working at the PilotAware end.

Regards

Peter

Richard

Re: FL*RM Integration - Beta Testers
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2016, 07:53:41 pm »
but hold fire just now until Lee gets a chance to get everything working at the PilotAware end.

Willco
Richard.
Europa XS

julianwebb

Re: FL*RM Integration - Beta Testers
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2016, 08:35:34 pm »
Hi All

I'm just wondering if this is now starting to get over priced.

So lets say I want PAW and Flarm. £200 PAW, £450 FLARM, SD say over 5 years £495, Cheap tablet £120, PAW software over 5 years £76 = £1,341.

May as well just buy a FLARM unit and get Modes S + C + ADS-B + FLARM all with free upgrades each year.

Might just be loosing the plot here! Only makes sense if someone already has some of the parts.

Regards

Julain

Keithvinning

Re: FL*RM Integration - Beta Testers
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2016, 09:12:28 pm »
Hi Julian

I think that you have answered this yourself. Folks already have the tablet and navigational software so should not be bought into the price mix. If you buy F*LARM you will not get PAW which will become a de facto standard as we move forward.

However the choice is obviously yours. The PAW price in the equation is £159.99 plus VAT to pull it all together. Sill great value we think?

Regards

Keith
 
« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 10:57:16 pm by Keithvinning »