Author Topic: ADS-B LIVE – Experience ADS-B at a Fly-In near you.  (Read 7850 times)

BobDarby

ADS-B LIVE – Experience ADS-B at a Fly-In near you.
« on: May 16, 2016, 06:44:15 pm »
Pilots who would like to experience ADS-B in live operation will have the opportunity to do so at several Fly-ins over the next few weeks. If you are planning to take part in any of these Fly-Ins, please read the details below and contact Project EVA.

21st May: BMAA Fly-In, Fenland.
21st May: LAA Devon Strut Fly-In, Porthtowan.
21st-22nd May: Super Spring Fly-In, Barton.
22nd May: LAA Andover Strut Fly-In, Popham.
28th-29th May: Rougham Fly-In.
30th May: Bidford Wings and Wheels.
4th June: Sutton Meadows Fly-In.
5th June : Brimpton Air ambulance fly-in at Brimpton.
11th June: All-American Fly-In Compton Abbas.
11th June: Sherburn Fly-In.
12th June: Biplane and Vintage Fly-In, Redhill.
17th-19th June: Air Rally, Guernsey.
18th-19th June: Air Britain Fly-In, North Weald.
18th-19th June: LAA Devon Strut Fly-In Farway Common.
24th-26th June: Alderney Annual Fly-In.
1st-3rd July: Aero Expo UK, Sywell.

There are now several varieties of ADS-B available for GA aircraft and pilots. These are
•   1090 MHz ADS-B-in and ADS-B-out.  This is “classical” ADS-B, as used by commercial air transport but now also being trialled in the Project EVA consisting of NATS, AOPA, Funke, and Trig, in the form of the LPAT – Low Power ADS-B Transceiver. (EVA stands for Enhanced Visibility by ADS-B.)
•   Power FLARM. Although mainly used by glider pilots, it can be carried in any GA aircraft.
•   Pilot Aware.  A more recent development aiming mainly at usage by lower end GA aircraft.

The CAA, supported by AOPA, LAA, BMAA, BGA, BHPA and other flying groups as well as NATS, has been examining “Electronic Conspicuity” for some time and decided that ADS-B on 1090MHz is the most promising technology.  This allows interoperability between aircraft carrying the equipment as well as visibility of those aircraft by ground stations and, eventually, ATC.   

NATS has supported the connection of uncertified GPS to Mode S transponders, to see how good the ADS-B data is and has concluded together with the CAA that it is acceptable for use in the UK.  The LAA has now taken over the approval process and an increasing number of aircraft are becoming equipped. This equipment is interoperable with “classical” ADS-B.

Project EVA is carrying out trials of LPAT together with other types of ADS-B Electronic Conspicuity.  EVA would like in particular to take advantage of ADS-B equipped aircraft attending Fly-Ins to see how well various types of device operate and especially how well different devices interoperate. To do this, we need to know about ADS-B equipped aircraft taking part in Fly-Ins. This is interoperable with “classical” ADS-B and NATS GPS trial equipped aircraft.

So, if you are ADS-B equipped with any type of ADS-B, please let us know as soon as possible, so that Project EVA can make arrangements to meet up at a Fly-In and understand your experience with ADS-B Live.  As an incentive, for those pilots and aircraft who carry out an ADS-B equipped flight and complete a questionnaire afterwards, EVA can cover up to half of the costs for your ADS-B flight.
Even pilots who do not currently have ADS-B can join in, because EVA has a couple of LPAT units and a Power FLARM unit that we can lend you on the Fly-In day.  EVA will cover up to half of the costs for a local ADS-B flight from the Fly-In airfield on the day – but please allow at least a couple of hours for this.

EVA is currently interested in pilots and aircraft who will be taking part in the Fly-Ins listed above over the next few weeks.

Please contact ALL the following:
•   bob.darby@aopa.co.uk
•   adrian.PRICE2@nats.co.uk
•   john.korna@nats.co.uk

We can’t guarantee to cover all the events listed.  The ones that we do cover will be chosen based on the number of pilots and aircraft who take part, so the sooner you register your interest, the better.



SteveN

Re: ADS-B LIVE – Experience ADS-B at a Fly-In near you.
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2016, 08:52:36 pm »
Bob,

You may have more success  renaming your events  "conspicuity Fly-ins".  You will get much better attendance as PAW owners may attend.  ADS-B to pilots means 1090Mhz/978Mhz ADS-B. No 978Mhz here in Europe thanks to EASA's 'not invented here' of course.

Your statement in your post that any conspicuity device is ADS-B will confuse already confused people and anyway is factually wrong. ADS-B is not FLARM or PAW. In Europe it is not even ADS-B UAT. ADS-B is a protocol using 1090mhz only in Europe. It does not mean all conspicuity devices.

PAW will have 500 units in aircraft once the first two production runs are shipped in the next two weeks so if what you really want  a good attendance  then 'conspicuity fly in' makes a lot more sense.

Unless you only wish ADS-B 1090 out aircraft to attend don't use "ADS-B" flyin. May I suggest you also  modify  your post on Flyer and any other forum. Note people are on this forum because they see the glacial progress of ADS-B caused by various roadblocks to it's adoption and want to see each other now.

BTW your statement that PAW is "mainly for the low end of GA " is also incorrect. It is  ideal for the mass of Garmin transponder owners who either cannot transmit ADS-B (GTX328) or face a £1200 bill to do so (GTX330). Neither then have  benefit of seeing ADS-B traffic without a device like PAW.

Steve Neale  (AOPA member and rep for Glos airport)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 10:46:17 pm by SteveN »

exfirepro

Re: ADS-B LIVE – Experience ADS-B at a Fly-In near you.
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2016, 12:58:46 am »
There are now several varieties of ADS-B available for GA aircraft and pilots. These are
•   1090 MHz ADS-B-in and ADS-B-out.  This is “classical” ADS-B, as used by commercial air transport but now also being trialled in the Project EVA consisting of NATS, AOPA, Funke, and Trig, in the form of the LPAT – Low Power ADS-B Transceiver. (EVA stands for Enhanced Visibility by ADS-B.)
•   Power FLARM. Although mainly used by glider pilots, it can be carried in any GA aircraft.
•   Pilot Aware.  A more recent development aiming mainly at usage by lower end GA aircraft

Bob,

It's very creditable for the CAA, NATS, etc. to 'Champion' the use of ADS-B on 1090Mhz, after all it's a universally accepted protocol, which has been in use by UK and Worldwide commercial interests for some time. Unfortunately, until suitable equipment for the transmission and reception of 1090Mhz ADS-B becomes commercially available in the UK at a realistic price and in a manner which will allow 1090Mhz ADS-B to be received, displayed and acted on universally by all UK aircraft and Air Traffic Control Units the considerable reluctance already exhibited by a major proportion of the broader UKGA community to spending the kind of money currently charged for straight Mode-S Transponders, let alone ADS-B equipment, will in my opinion continue.

Despite flying a relatively modest flexwing microlight safely for over 8 years, including a trip in my early days from my home base in Scotland to the Pyrenees, I finally decided last year to spend a significant amount of money in relation to the value of my aircraft on a Mode-S transponder, simply to make my aircraft 'visible' to ATC, knowing that most other UK aircraft would still be unable to see me and that I would still be unable to (electronically) 'see' any of them.

I then heard about the NATS Non-Certified ADS-B trial, which for a modest sum would, I was told, increase the visibility of my aircraft to other aircraft, including commercial TCAS, and to ATC, so decided to spend even more money to 'enhance' my Mode-S transponder to transmit ADS-B out.

Imagine my disappointment when I found that:-

a) Not living in the South of England, I was unable to get my installation verified and therefore could not get it approved - thus rendering the whole exercise pretty futile.

b)The insistence by the CAA and NATS that such a system must transmit a System Design Assurance (SDA) and System Integrity Level (SIL) of ZERO, effectively ensures that my expensive ADS-B out signal will apparently be completely disregarded by ATC and commercial aircraft TCAS systems. making it at that point in time viewable by the silent mass of FlightRadar 24 'geeks', but not by other aircraft (no insult whatsoever intended to FlightRadar 24 or its users - other ADS-B viewing systems - with similar delays and gaps in the receipt of the received signals - and users - are, as they say, available).

c) NATS can apparently only receive ADS-B in the South of England, and reportedly in any case do not currently allow it to be utilised (at least officially) by any UK ATC units - not that they would be allowed to see my SDA/SIL '0' signals anyway.

d) With the exception of PowerFlarm and a very small range of other receivers - most of which have had an extremely small take-up in relation to the total number of UK aircraft - no other UK aircraft would be able to see me either.

So, other than to prove to the CAA that connecting a non-certified GPS to a certified transponder provides reliable positional information, can someone please explain what the point of the whole ADS-B TRIAL exercise was!

My next move in an attempt to salvage something from the whole mess and allow me to see all these 1090Mhz ADS-B Out (and Mode-S) equipped aircraft, was to buy myself a 'PowerFlarm', which with its various accessories cost even more than my Mode-S / ADS-B out transponder. Unfortunately, despite continuing attempts over almost 10 months, including a replacement core unit and a trip by the second unit back to Germany, it steadfastly refused to talk to my navigation display, so was unceremoniously returned for a refund.

Then finally, I came across...

Quote
•   Pilot Aware.  A more recent development aiming mainly at usage by lower end GA aircraft

(Not in fact factually accurate - PilotAware is aimed squarely at all GA aircraft, including light aircraft, helicopters, gyros, fixed and flexwing microlights, SSDR (single seat deregulated) aircraft, gliders, paragliders, balloons and any other aircraft which can't currently see other aircraft because the equipment to allow them to do so is either not yet available, or only available at a price which is significantly beyond most people's pocket.)

For not much more than I spent on postage sending PowerFlarm back and forwards to the supplier, PilotAware gives me: -

•   Accurate, reliable display of moving 1090Mhz ADS-B Out equipped aircraft on my tablet, integrated to my navigation system of choice, with moving position, relative altitude and track information and associated audio warnings.

•   Visual and audio warnings of nearby Mode-S transponder equipped aircraft.

•   A simple and reliable method of broadcasting my own aircraft position and altitude and reliably and accurately showing the position, relative altitude and track of similarly equipped aircraft within a realistic range on my navigation device.

And all this available NOW (or at least as soon as the next batch of RF boards arrives from the manufacturer).

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to belittle the efforts of the various groups and individuals working to increase the conspicuity of aircraft using 1090Mhz equipment, but until someone can actually produce a reliable, readily available and cost effective 1090Mhz receiver system, I for one will continue to rely on PilotAware (as presumably will the estimated 600 people who built their own beta units, the 250+ who have already placed firm orders for kits and the many hundreds who have reportedly expressed interest via the Hardware Site).

Best Regards and good luck with your trials

As Steve says, perhaps making PilotAware 'inclusive' rather than minimizing the PilotAware Development Team's considerable achievements might gain your project more credibility on this forum.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 08:46:58 am by exfirepro »

Richard

Re: ADS-B LIVE – Experience ADS-B at a Fly-In near you.
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2016, 08:10:41 am »


a) Not living in the South of England, I was unable to get my installation verified and therefore could not get it approved - thus rendering the whole exercise pretty futile.



Just one point. From above, ADSB is available to all anywhere in the uk, not just the south. The tryouts where conducted in the south dew to been able to receive the ADSB transitions. You just need to connect to your GPS, verified with your Pilotaware and send in the modifications to LAA. And it will not cost you a penny.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 09:12:54 am by Richard »
Richard.
Europa XS

SteveN

Re: ADS-B LIVE – Experience ADS-B at a Fly-In near you.
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2016, 09:09:38 am »
Unless you fly an EASA aircraft  that must now have a transponder that is certified to ETSO C166B  to connect ADS-B  (mod Fee and upgrade if available).

Unless you fly a Garmin GTX330 or GTX328 transponder

Unless you fly a Becker transponder (not compliant as no capability to change SIL/SDA)

Unless you fly a F.U.N.K.E. transponder that has not been updated.

In which cases it will cost from £200 to £2000 to xmt ADS-B out!!

Hope you bought a Trigg :)

exfirepro

Re: ADS-B LIVE – Experience ADS-B at a Fly-In near you.
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2016, 09:10:14 am »
Hi Richard,

I am aware that ADSB out through uncertified GPS can now be approved by the LAA and by the BMAA, though from my recent conversation with the BMAA they are still working on the minor mod paperwork.

My gripe is with the enforced adoption of SIL/SDA code 0, which we have been told  tells NATS and TCAS that the gps source is 'unreliable' and should be disregarded.

Surely we need to be able to transmit a code (e.g. 0+ or whatever, or - God forbid, even 1) to reflect the uncertified nature but now proven reliability of the position source and which allows ATC and TCAS units to see us and initiate any necessary avoiding action in a similar manner to what we can do NOW with PAW.

Without this, NATS are currently relying  on other systems such as PowerFLARM and PilotAware to do their job for them.

And while I'm on the subject, no-one has so far done other than 'guesstimate' as to a price point for the fabled LPAT, which is obviously still in its development / testing phase and is still likely to prove cost-prohibitive to those of us who have already shelled out a considerable amount on mode S/ADSB out. What we really need is a reasonably priced 1090 MHz ADSB receiver - oh of course, PilotAware does that!

Best Regards

Peter
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 01:53:51 pm by exfirepro »

SteveN

Re: ADS-B LIVE – Experience ADS-B at a Fly-In near you.
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2016, 09:19:54 am »
At Friedrichshafen last year the F.U.N.K.E. rep told me they will be charging about 1000 Euros + VAT for LPAT.   LPAT's ADS-B out can only be used with any fitted transponder switched off of course.

Even then it won't trigger TCAS.

Can't see it even coming to market with that restriction.

Wonder why people are flooding to PAW?

SteveN

Re: ADS-B LIVE – Experience ADS-B at a Fly-In near you.
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2016, 09:41:41 am »
Let me be clear. I am not anti ADS-B.  I am pro seeing each other.

I think ADS-B is the ultimate future. But adoption will be very very slow because of:

Slug brained over regulation from EASA primarily by not allowing ADS-B UAT and the FIS-B carrots used by FAA.

EASA forced fitting MODE S so the  transponder stock is new and not going to need replacing in my lifetime.

CAA have tried to help by allowing uncertified GPS but has EASA agreed to this throughout Europe?

Adopting of ADS-B is in the hands of the regulator to making it attractive.

Attractive also means <£250 to do the job.


Richard

Re: ADS-B LIVE – Experience ADS-B at a Fly-In near you.
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2016, 09:47:29 am »


My gripe is with the enforced adoption of SIL/SDA code 0, which we have been told  tells NATS and TCAS that the gps source is 'unreliable' and should be disregarded.



Peter
   I Understand your point now. I Agree. I'm sure It's early days and the testing has started at the minimum requirement's but may be altered latter when they are happy with the Un-Certificated GPS
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 10:50:09 am by Richard »
Richard.
Europa XS

Moffrestorer

Re: ADS-B LIVE – Experience ADS-B at a Fly-In near you.
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2016, 10:24:04 am »
Very well made points by all those responding to Bob Derby's posting.

Exfirepro's point about verifying his uncertified gps connection to his transponder, only being possible in SE England, due to restricted NATS capability, was indeed the reality at that time, and it was only as a result of Steve Hutt's appeal to Lee Moore to investigate whether PilotAware could be adapted to determine whether an adsb SIL and SDA were correctly set, that the situation has changed for the better. Lee famously worked his magic in very short order and PilotAware is now the means to test the validity of the connection, at least for the LAA and BMAA fleets. Well done PilotAware, even though you are only targetted at the "low end of GA"!  In my view, Lee and his team have achieved way more, probably with scant resources, than the authorities, manufacturers alike, in this regard.

The case of whether SIL and SDA should be required to be Zero, with all that it implies regarding visibility to ATC, TCAS etc is surely very debatable, and is probably a case of the CAA "gold plating" regulation, as they habitually did so in the past!

Chris

AlanG

Re: ADS-B LIVE – Experience ADS-B at a Fly-In near you.
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2016, 10:52:51 am »
Hi All

Here's to being at the "lower end of GA".  The only way is UP.

With the help of PilotAware of course.

Regards
Alan

Admin

Re: ADS-B LIVE – Experience ADS-B at a Fly-In near you.
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2016, 02:14:39 pm »
Hi Bob, Adrian, John

Could I ask for some clarification on the posting you have made ?

Q1. Is this invitation open to those aircraft fitted with PilotAware only (and possibly Mode-A/C/S) ?

Q2. Could you please clarify which group of Aircraft forms the 'lower end GA aircraft' ?

Q3. Which aircraft are suitable for FLARM and LPAT which are not part of the 'lower end GA aircraft' ?

And finally, could you please remember to ask all (both) LPAT equipped aircraft to set off early for the Fly-In, because of course whilst using their LPAT they will have to fly around all controlled airspace which requires a transponder - because unfortunately they will need to turn them off - thus 'enhancing' their safety

Please do not attempt to marginalise the very hard work which has been done by many involved in this project over a long period of time, and the many Beta Users who have helped push the PilotAware team in the right direction to develop a product suitable to their needs and their requirements.

As a general rule I was taught if I had nothing good say about something, then say nothing.
In which case I consider the matter closed



BobDarby

Re: ADS-B LIVE – Experience ADS-B at a Fly-In near you.
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2016, 12:09:20 am »
Thanks everyone for your replies.  A lot of very good points are made.
 
The main aim of the posting, however, was not to bring about a technical discussion but instead to bring pilots/aircraft together at an event where practical experience of any device can be gained and shared.
 
Please let us all know if you will be flying to any of the events listed, and with what aircraft (type and registration), so that we can focus on the best candidate location for both ground and airborne electronic conspicuity experience.
 
Please respond as soon as possible and by Thursday 19th 23:59 for this week’s events to:
·         bob.darby@aopa.co.uk
·         gps.trial@nats.co.uk
We will reply to all mails received that indicate participation, and post on as many sites as we can the selected location (based on replies) on Friday evening.

cheeky172

Re: ADS-B LIVE – Experience ADS-B at a Fly-In near you.
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2017, 05:08:14 pm »
You would be welcome a teh Tatenhill FLY IN on 13th of May.
We have 15 users of Pilot aware on site and a ground station transmitting 24 hours a day on the PAW frequency.
Regards
Neil
Chairman East Staffs Flying Club
Organiser of fly in.