Author Topic: Transceiver Interference  (Read 21009 times)

schweboo

Re: Transceiver Interference
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2016, 05:51:51 pm »
On the SkyDemon forum there is a post that warns:

"You need to be careful using those 'TV tuner' dongles in the air. They use a local oscillator in the tuner and spit out masses of RF interference spanning from VHF frequencies up past 1.5GHz (GPS) and beyond. One I tried knocked out a GPS receiver from half a metre away. Not good..."

Not being a techie I have no idea what this means and it certainly does not reflect anything I have seen while flying with a RPI with PIAWARE with both GPS and ADS-B USB dongles...can anyone throw light on what the author is saying?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 06:14:41 pm by schweboo »

The Westmorland Flyer

Re: Transceiver Interference
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2016, 06:32:32 pm »
Virtually all receivers employ what is know as the "superheterodyne" (superhet) design. The incoming signal is mixed with a very low power locally created signal to produce an intermediate frequency where most of the signal amplification takes place. This locally created signal is known as the "local oscillator" and it is, in effect, an extremely low power transmitter.

Dongles like the one we use actually convert down to baseband where digital signal processing (DSP) is used to render the required signals. The superhet concept still applies, so in theory, at least, it is possible for interference from the local oscillator to occur. It is, however, an extremely improbable effect. It would only occur in the event of a fairly significant malfunction in the dongle's electronics, as the local oscillator should not be tuned to anywhere near any of the frequencies that we use. I don't discount it by any means but there are other places I'd be looking first.
John
G-JONL, Sportcruiser, Carlisle

Paul_Sengupta

Re: Transceiver Interference
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2016, 11:58:43 pm »
Do Software Defined Receivers (SDRs) even have a local oscillator? I tried to find out what mine was for my Baofeng dual band handheld, but I drew a complete blank. I found that it too uses an SDR I believe.

Paul_Sengupta

Re: Transceiver Interference
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2016, 12:07:19 am »
Answering my own question, there's a guide here:

http://www.pentek.com/pildocs/8363/techother/DGTLRCVRHBK43.PDF

Diagram on page 7 (compared with analogue receiver on page 6).

The Westmorland Flyer

Re: Transceiver Interference
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2016, 09:02:52 am »
The first few pages, before it drifts off into marketing spiel, is one of the best SDR receiver primers I've ever seen. Thanks Paul!
John
G-JONL, Sportcruiser, Carlisle

Andy Fell

Re: Transceiver Interference
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2016, 07:56:31 pm »
there is more than just the local oscillator to consider... the DSP uses clocks running very fast, which can often come out of the antenna port at a range of frequencies (lots of them all at the same time!).  this is one of the issues with SDRs vs the traditional analogue technique.

It would be best to keep this as far away from your VHF as possible.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 07:58:02 pm by Wobblewing »

scsirob

Re: Transceiver Interference
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2016, 09:10:11 pm »
What Wobblewing says ^^^ is right. The problem with fast digital logic is that they create lots of spurious carrier waves, little transmitters that can interfere with your regular COM, your transponder and your GPS.

A clean analog local oscillator produces a single sine wave signal. This is usually not a big problem unless it sits exactly on the frequency you are trying to receive. A digital system on the other hand uses square waves. That means that besides the signal frequency, you will also find signals at multitudes of that signal frequency. Usually the odd multiples, so 3x, 5x, 7x etc. What that means is that if you have a clock somewhere at 1 MHz, you'll find signals at 3, 5, 7MHz etc. An entire comb of signals. In a DSP there are usually lots of clock-like signals, so lots of noise.

A good DSP (or any other digital) system will use proper shielding to keep that interference from escaping. Unfortunately the cheap consumer dongles use simple plastic casings and cheap cables that keep nothing in. The RPi itself is guilty as well.

What might help a bit is to use a metallic case that includes the dongle, and perhaps some ferrite beads on every wire coming out of that case. One of the other threads showed some 3D printed cases. Perhaps spraying them with metallic paint on the inside would be a good first start to fight interference.

schweboo

Re: Transceiver Interference
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2016, 07:18:59 pm »
Would an aluminum case for the Rpi help?

Andy Fell

Re: Transceiver Interference
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2016, 07:27:02 pm »
Yes, it probably would.

RickHemmings

Re: Transceiver Interference
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2016, 05:38:46 pm »
Had our first flights over the past couple of weekends with the ADSB PAW, and we have also had consistent interference on all the frequencies we used. We have powered it via a 12v socket hard wired in the aeropane, and then a plug in USB (3.1A) power supply, and having unplugged various components in turn, it seems clear that it is the PAW that is causing it and not the lead or power supply. More of a nuisance than anything, but still a bit annoying. I have used the same cheap plastic box as in the instructions, maybe metal will help?

Admin

Re: Transceiver Interference
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2016, 06:01:45 pm »
Hi Rick

Just to confirm, are you hearing a 'click' every couple of seconds, or a white noise effect ?

also you say
Quote
a plug in USB (3.1A) power supply

Can you post a link to this, and do you ever power anything else (such as your iPad) from the
same supply and not get the same effect. Some of these are notoriously noisy.

Finally are you able to try powering PAW from a USB battery source, these give much less noise.

I would strongly suspect the USB power supply, and bear in mind this would only cause this issue when loaded, just plugging the USB power supply into the Auxillary socket, does not rule this out as your noise source, it mus have a load attached

Thx
Lee

RickHemmings

Re: Transceiver Interference
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2016, 07:08:41 pm »
Lee  - it’s a white noise effect, and  it was a USAMS twin port charger, one of these:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-TWIN-USB-USAMS-DUAL-2-PORT-3-1-AMPS-UNIVERSAL-CIGARETTE-SOCKET-CAR-CHARGER-/121911798279?hash=item1c62826a07:g:NFIAAOSwYlJW1uxJ

We have only connected the PAW to this one which I bought because of the higher current requirement.
I will try sorting out a battery supply to check that out too. We also have 2 12v sockets in the aeroplane, and have another (different) usb charger in the other one which drives an Aware gps. What I should have done is to switch the chargers, and see if the USAMS one causes the same interference when connected to the Aware. I will check this out the next time I fly!

Do you have a recommendation for a good USB charging socket?

Thanks
Rick

Ian Melville

Re: Transceiver Interference
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2016, 07:42:21 pm »
http://www.charge4.co.uk/ Designed with pilots in mind

Andy Fell

Re: Transceiver Interference
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2016, 10:58:46 pm »
Lee  - it’s a white noise effect, and  it was a USAMS twin port charger, one of these:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-TWIN-USB-USAMS-DUAL-2-PORT-3-1-AMPS-UNIVERSAL-CIGARETTE-SOCKET-CAR-CHARGER-/121911798279?hash=item1c62826a07:g:NFIAAOSwYlJW1uxJ

We have only connected the PAW to this one which I bought because of the higher current requirement.
I will try sorting out a battery supply to check that out too. We also have 2 12v sockets in the aeroplane, and have another (different) usb charger in the other one which drives an Aware gps. What I should have done is to switch the chargers, and see if the USAMS one causes the same interference when connected to the Aware. I will check this out the next time I fly!

Do you have a recommendation for a good USB charging socket?

Thanks
Rick

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Adjustable-DC-DC-Boost-Step-up-Power-Converter-Module-XL6009-Replace-LM2577-/272041588474?hash=item3f56f136fa:g:68gAAOSwiwVWRUaf

These work pretty well, but you have to wire them in (don't forget a fuse).. adding extra capacitor also helps keep the noise down.  You need to use a multimeter to set the output voltage to 5V (or just a little higher, say 5.25V), then it's best to glue up the potentiometer with cyano so it doesn't readjust itself with any vibrations.


Cheaper than a £100+ power supply.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 11:03:26 pm by Wobblewing »

JCurtis

Re: Transceiver Interference
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2016, 11:36:12 pm »
Lee  - it’s a white noise effect, and  it was a USAMS twin port charger, one of these:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-TWIN-USB-USAMS-DUAL-2-PORT-3-1-AMPS-UNIVERSAL-CIGARETTE-SOCKET-CAR-CHARGER-/121911798279?hash=item1c62826a07:g:NFIAAOSwYlJW1uxJ

We have only connected the PAW to this one which I bought because of the higher current requirement.
I will try sorting out a battery supply to check that out too. We also have 2 12v sockets in the aeroplane, and have another (different) usb charger in the other one which drives an Aware gps. What I should have done is to switch the chargers, and see if the USAMS one causes the same interference when connected to the Aware. I will check this out the next time I fly!

Do you have a recommendation for a good USB charging socket?

Thanks
Rick

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Adjustable-DC-DC-Boost-Step-up-Power-Converter-Module-XL6009-Replace-LM2577-/272041588474?hash=item3f56f136fa:g:68gAAOSwiwVWRUaf

These work pretty well, but you have to wire them in (don't forget a fuse).. adding extra capacitor also helps keep the noise down.  You need to use a multimeter to set the output voltage to 5V (or just a little higher, say 5.25V), then it's best to glue up the potentiometer with cyano so it doesn't readjust itself with any vibrations.


Cheaper than a £100+ power supply.

I bought something like those to look at, before they rebranded their knock off LM2577 as something else to get round selling fake chips. Would I trust one of these in the air, no, there is a reason they are 99p and no doubt someone will find out soon enough.

I think I bought 5 for £2.99 or the like, 1 just passed the input voltage through regardless of adjustment.  I might dig one out and pop it on the bench...

Those ones listed are actually down as boost onverters, so plugging one of those into an iPad will generate a few sparks. They all look the same so it can be pot luck what you get. You may have meant these ?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Boost-Buck-DC-DC-adjustable-step-up-down-Converter-XL6009-Module-Solar-Voltage/191777597596?_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140328180637%26meid%3D9473a34b18de4af1ab63337625095938%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D272041588474
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 11:44:31 pm by JCurtis »
Designer and maker of charge4.harkwood.co.uk, smart universal USB chargers designed for aviation.  USB Type-A and USB-C power without the RF interference. Approved for EASA installs under CS-STAN too.