Author Topic: PAW via Bluetooth rather than Wifi  (Read 1502 times)

gwyn_carwardine

PAW via Bluetooth rather than Wifi
« on: November 02, 2023, 03:29:14 pm »
I've come back to PAW after 5 years away to see if it's got any more usable (for my requirements)... But I see that I still have to connect to it using Wifi which stops me connecting to simultaneously connecting to the internet.

Any reason why I still can't connect to PAW using Bluetooth like I can for a million other devices? For me it still seems unusable.

(I did try searching for the topic but didn't find anything relevant in 10 minutes)

Thanks!

steveu

Re: PAW via Bluetooth rather than Wifi
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2023, 03:45:23 pm »
It doesn't, there's now iGrid.

A fair few phones can run the connection in both directions, with the PAW using the phone hotspot and thus on the Internet but getting the SD traffic via Wifi.

iGRID Operating Instructions


gwyn_carwardine

Re: PAW via Bluetooth rather than Wifi
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2023, 06:36:00 pm »
Ok, so I think I've worked out what is going on with "iGrid":

Essentially the PAW box runs both PAW and Router services (I'll call this PAW-Router).

The PAW service transceives aircraft traffic info and provides a web interface

The PAW-Router service manages subnet 192.168.1.*. It identifies itself as 192.168.1.1. The PAW service is bound to this IP address.

It has a Wifi network of SSID "PilotAware_<mac-address>" and assigns IP addresses via DHCP

However, PAW can also join an upstream network (typically a mobile phone running a hotspot wifi such as "Johns Iphone") which will assign it a DHCP address, such as 192.168.214.116 on its subnet (e.g. 192.168.214.*) . This will be used as the gateway (to get to the Internet).

The mobile phone will have its own IP address, e.g. 10.60.200.76 on the network provider's subnet.

A device (such as a tablet) can now join the "PilotAware..." network and will receive an address 192.168.1.2+

Skydemon running on this device will look for the PAW component on address 192.168.1.1

A device could attach to the mobile phone's hotspot wifi "Johns Iphone" and that device, or the phone itself, could run Skydemon and the phone will route requests for 192.168.1.1 back to the PAW-Router which will pass on to the PAW webservice.

Essentially PAW becomes a local network that, when connected to a hotspot, provides devices that connect access to the PAW webservice and upstream to the internet. One could connect one or more devices to receive traffic information but also a passenger could connect to the PAW Wifi network and use it to access the internet.

Phew.

It's a neat, if complex, solution.

Questions:

Can you plug a USB GSM dongle into the PAW box for upstream internet access instead of joining a mobile phone's hotspot?
Can you connect the PAW box using an ethernet cable to an upstream network? So one wifi dongle and one wired connection (to the upstream network)?
Can you connect a wired consuming device to the PAW network? One or two wifi dongles and the wired connection will provide an address on the local PAW network?
What does the "Router" setting actually do?

Looking at the network info available it would be useful to have other info on there as well as IP... subnet... gateway... even dns... so one can see what's happening.. I've got mine currently with one wireless dongle and an ethernet cable into my home router. I can access "paw.local" over my network and I can have a device that can connect to PAW's Wifi. However my local network's subnet is 192.168.1.*, and my router is 192.168.1.1 and so conflicts with the PAW's network. So whilst a device can connect on the PAW wifi.. when it tries to access 192.168.1.1 it can't...

It's a shame PAW didn't originally use, for example, 192.168.201.* for its subnet. Then there would never be conflict with home networks when one is fiddling at home.. doesn't really matter in real life but would have been good.

Perhaps even advanced settings - for each network interface (ethernet, wifi dongle, GSM dongle - which I don't think is supported) ability to configure usage..

steveu

Re: PAW via Bluetooth rather than Wifi
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2023, 07:02:04 pm »
Looking at the network info available it would be useful to have other info on there as well as IP... subnet... gateway... even dns... so one can see what's happening.. I've got mine currently with one wireless dongle and an ethernet cable into my home router. I can access "paw.local" over my network and I can have a device that can connect to PAW's Wifi. However my local network's subnet is 192.168.1.*, and my router is 192.168.1.1 and so conflicts with the PAW's network. So whilst a device can connect on the PAW wifi.. when it tries to access 192.168.1.1 it can't...

It's a shame PAW didn't originally use, for example, 192.168.201.* for its subnet. Then there would never be conflict with home networks when one is fiddling at home.. doesn't really matter in real life but would have been good.

The BT Home Hub, which is one of the most common routers in the UK, uses 192.168.1.254 for the gateway address. Make yours the same, reboot the router, job done. Just check the DHCP range gives you a number of fixed IP addresses from .1 to .63, for example, then the DHCP range from .64 to .127. You won't even need to change the subnet mask. Other devices that like this fixed IP address will be more easily configured on your home network.

In your example a subnet mask change would be needed on the router to see 1.1 from .201.*, I think.

Perhaps even advanced settings - for each network interface (ethernet, wifi dongle, GSM dongle - which I don't think is supported) ability to configure usage..


How many people would use them and would there be better uses of developer and beta testing time?

gwyn_carwardine

Re: PAW via Bluetooth rather than Wifi
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2023, 09:22:15 pm »
Different hubs use different ranges 192.168.0.254/1.1/0.1 I've seen 'em all....  I've actually got a very complex network and switching would not be without significant effort. The point is that 192.168.anything-except-1 would have been a smarter choice. Easy in hindsight of course.

As for the extra options? More info and a few advanced config options... not that hard (and of course I say that as a software architect/engineer)...

But,, I still think it's overly complex. It has a purpose.. a wifi host can have multiple clients... handy... but for someone just wanting to connect to PAW for running SD on one device? Bluetooth is simpler.

So I think it would be good to be able to choose Bluetooth OR Wifi. From the app perspective (SD for example) communicating with the BT device is no more complex than web calls over wifi...


PaulSS

Re: PAW via Bluetooth rather than Wifi
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2023, 08:13:09 am »
Quote
Can you plug a USB GSM dongle into the PAW box for upstream internet access instead of joining a mobile phone's hotspot?

Yes, this is what I have in my aircraft. I have a 4G dongle plugged into one of the PAW my Charge 4 USB ports via a USB extension cable (for power). When I power up the aircraft the 4G dongle connects automatically to my PAW iGrid dongle. I have the PAW router function enabled, so my iPad Mini (without a sim card inserted) gets Internet from the 4G dongle via the PAW.

It's still only as good as a 4G signal gets in the air but it all works well when the GSB 'blob' is green. I get iGrid data and my iPad gets an Internet connection to update SkyDemon.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2023, 08:33:48 am by PaulSS »

Admin

Re: PAW via Bluetooth rather than Wifi
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2023, 07:44:11 am »
I would caution against this approach unless you fully investigate the power requirements
We have had a number of issues with these 4g dongles drawing too much current and causing system brownouts

PaulSS

Re: PAW via Bluetooth rather than Wifi
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2023, 08:32:08 am »
You are absolutely correct, Lee and I've just realised what I wrote above is total bolleaux  :-\. My dongle isn't plugged into my PAW at all. It's plugged into my Charge 4 for power. I have no idea why I wrote that but I will amend it. The dongle WIFI signal is just 'there' for the PAW to connect to wirelessly. No cables to PAW involved at all.

gwyn_carwardine

Re: PAW via Bluetooth rather than Wifi
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2023, 03:31:50 pm »
I've now received a second dongle and have PAW connected to the internet via android mobile phone (S22 Ultra) hotspot

I've connected another Android device (S20 FE) to Pilotaware hotspot and all works ok

In the status I have:
IP | eth0=DOWN | | wlan0=192.168.1.1 | wlan1=192.168.214.203 | iGRID-wg = 10.200.0.102
In the network settings I have:
Router "Enabled"

I can also access the internet from the S20 FE. Great.

HOWEVER... from the S22 Ultra I cannot get to PAW and when I enter 192.168.1.1, or try to use PAW in Skydemon, it can't find it.

So does iGrid only work fully for iPhones????


Admin

Re: PAW via Bluetooth rather than Wifi
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2023, 09:08:05 pm »
HOWEVER... from the S22 Ultra I cannot get to PAW and when I enter 192.168.1.1, or try to use PAW in Skydemon, it can't find it.
So does iGrid only work fully for iPhones????

This is not the problem is it ?

the S22 is acting as a hotspot, it knows nothing about the PilotAware hotspot as it is not connected to it.
However, PilotAware is connected to the S22 as a client with
wlan1=192.168.214.203

So I would have thought the S22 could access PilotAware using a web client connected to http://192.168.214.203
can you try this ?

Now Skydemon is a different matter.
SkyDemon can connect over TCP, BUT it is hardcoded to look for 192.168.1.1/2000 - which as already explained this IP does not appear on the network of the S22
SkyDemon can also listen to incoming UDP, BUT PilotAware will only send UDP messages to clients of its access point on 192.168.1.X

I think Ashley mentioned to you, we could potentially broadcast to the network we are connected as client (we do this with ATOM)
At the moment we are very busy polishing the software for Rosetta-FX, so this could be a future enhancement, but TBH, I have had nobody else ask for this feature

Thx
Lee