Author Topic: PAW Classic now reports Volt=Error and works intermittently  (Read 1793 times)

Easy Cruising

My PAW classic runs software version 20230616, license is valid for 12 more months. I've been using it reliably for years, no modifications except software updates. Now it suddenly became unreliable:

1. Sometimes I see the Pilotaware WiFi and connect to it, but I can't get to the home page (or any other) from phone/tablet. Sometimes I don't see the Pilotaware wifi after starting it at all. Sometimes it works ok. I note also that I can sometimes connect to the wifi from my Samsung S22+ phone, but not from my Sony Tablet Compact .. but this is new .. always worked previously.

2. On the 'Home' page it reports 'Volt=Error' (also on radar screen) often, but intermittently. When it reports Volt=Error it still seems to find traffic on the 'Traffic' page if I am connected.

I use it in the aircraft with the same power cable and power connector (cigar lighter adapter) as ever, and at home with a stable power source and good USB cable .. don't think it's a power issue. All the 3 dongles are plugged-in ok as far as I can see.

The adsb receiver dongle (and therefore the wifi dongle because it touches the adsb dongle) get very hot  ... but always did since years.

Any one have an idea what can be the issue ? I really changed nothing in the position of the PAW in the aircraft, or the cables or the dongles, it just went whacko.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2023, 03:10:47 pm by Easy Cruising »

JCurtis

Re: PAW Classic now reports Volt=Error and works intermittently
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2023, 03:19:13 pm »
Have you tried a new USB cable powering it?  Cables are consumable items, over time vibrations and use will cause strands in the cable to break.

Simple to check, and causes many issues.
Designer and maker of charge4.harkwood.co.uk, smart universal USB chargers designed for aviation.  USB Type-A and USB-C power without the RF interference. Approved for EASA installs under CS-STAN too.

steveu

Re: PAW Classic now reports Volt=Error and works intermittently
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2023, 09:30:49 pm »

I use it in the aircraft with the same power cable and power connector (cigar lighter adapter) as ever, and at home with a stable power source and good USB cable .. don't think it's a power issue. All the 3 dongles are plugged-in ok as far as I can see.

The adsb receiver dongle (and therefore the wifi dongle because it touches the adsb dongle) get very hot  ... but always did since years.

Any one have an idea what can be the issue ? I really changed nothing in the position of the PAW in the aircraft, or the cables or the dongles, it just went whacko.

It went whacko so something has failed. Unless you have evidence for something, it's no good saying I don't think it could be that.

We need to gather evidence that the USB power is still up to the job, and that the ADS-B SDR isn't loading the power supply down.

First thing might be to use a USB power meter like this one:



to see if the USB port is giving you over 5V and what current it is taking.

Alternatively, disconnect the ADS-B SDR and see if this fixes things.

If you can't be arsed with the USB voltmeter, then swap out the 12V to USB converter, and then the lead, to fault find by substitution.

You should really be using the recommended Anker 12V to USB for optimum reliability.

A proper support person will be along soon with better ideas.

Easy Cruising

Re: PAW Classic now reports Volt=Error and works intermittently
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2023, 01:43:36 pm »
I am aware of the need for a good USB power cable .. it's documented in these forums .. and for the need of a stable power supply .. also documented in these forums. As I mentioned :

"I use it in the aircraft with the same power cable and power connector (cigar lighter adapter) as ever, and at home with a stable power source and good USB cable .. don't think it's a power issue. All the 3 dongles are plugged-in ok as far as I can see."

... so the PAW unit has the same problem whether in the aircraft or running on my desk at home powered by a mains supplied USB RAVPower unit. I have used several usb power cables. The problem persists irrespective of which cable is used, so I don't think that the cable is at fault. In the past it always worked fine with any of the cables I have, at home or in the aircraft.

Additionally,  I get the same continual voltage error with only the wifi dongle inserted (no adsb and no gps dongles).


exfirepro

Re: PAW Classic now reports Volt=Error and works intermittently
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2023, 07:43:22 pm »
Hi Easy Cruising,

There are still plenty of PAW Classics on the go, but they are getting a bit long in the tooth. As with any electrical equipment, the early ones in particular are liable to show the occasional issue as they get older.

Looking at your problems logically, you state that 'you don't think it can be a power issue', but also say that '...on the Home Page and Radar Screen you often get 'Voltage Errors' reporting'. Those are both clear and unequivocal evidence that there is a Power Issue with your PAW - albeit one that may be intermittent. The question we need to address is 'what is causing the problem?' It could down to a number of reasons, and might be due to more than one single fault. The first thing we need to ensure is that the power source is adequate to maintain 5 volts when a current of 2.1 Amps or more is being drawn from it. It's easy to say that the unit is rated at (say) 5 volts at 2.4 Amps and 'has always worked fine', but remember that power adapters can develop faults just the same as any other electrical equipment and that if you are using a two port adapter to power your PAW and are also powering a second device from it (such as a tablet or phone - which is NOT Recommended by PAW BTW), the second device could well be overdrawing the supply, causing the Voltage to drop. This may well have been working for years, but as your display device gets older its batteries degrade and the power requirement on the 'charger' to keep it running can get higher and can easily overdraw the supply (which usually also causes high levels of RF interference in your comms systems).

The next check has to be the power cable, which (as Jeremy has reported) can degrade through use (they are not 'infinite life' items). The connectors can also degrade over time - especially if plugged and unplugged regularly or carelessly. The MicroUSB socket at the PAW is particularly susceptible to heavy-handed connecting or disconnecting. Fortunately the Power LED, which on the Classic is visible through the perforated end plate at the opposite side to the P3i Antenna SMA Connector provides an easy 'first check' (if you don't want to invest in a power meter). This is a Red LED, which should remain ON and solid Red at all times when the unit is powered. This allows a quick rough and ready test to be carried out by gently wiggling the power cable, while observing the LED. Any blinking or failure of this LED indicates a power dropout. Look for evidence of problems at the USB-A (power supply) end, along the length of the cable itself, or with the MicroUSB plug or the power socket in the PAW. Cable faults can be fixed by replacing with a suitable high quality* USB to MicroUSB cable available from the PAW website. A faulty power socket in the PAW is a harder fix and is usually easiest fixed by replacing the Raspberry Pi motherboard (which of course gives you the opportunity to 'upgrade' to a Raspberry Pi3 with on-board WiFi -  see later).

* NOTE: High Quality means having a minimum 20AWG Power wire inside the cable and a maximum length of not more than 1 metre.

Other known causes of power issues are individual components (such as dongles) developing faults and drawing a higher than normal current. This can apply to all 3 dongles, though the 1090 SDR or WiFi dongle are the more common culprits. You state that the ADSB dongle gets very hot, which could be an indication, though as you say they often run hot, but go on to say that you get the same continual voltage error with only the Wifi dongle inserted - which could point to that being the faulty component, though not necessarily the only fault.

I would therefore suggest carrying out the above tests and let us know what (if anything) you find.

Best Regards

Peter

Easy Cruising

Re: PAW Classic now reports Volt=Error and works intermittently
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2023, 09:53:12 am »
Thanks exfire. Will check-out your suggestions and report back.

Easy Cruising

Re: PAW Classic now reports Volt=Error and works intermittently
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2023, 03:54:20 pm »
I bought a usb power meter as steveu suggested and a Pi3b, with gps, wifi and adsb dongles attached. I used the 'thick' usb cable that I got with the PAW originally and connected it to my RAV power mains supplied usb power brick at home. In the PAW pages I get sporadically get  'Voltage Error' with both of the Pi units (new Pi3b and old Pi2b), even when no dongles are attached (I used the hdmi and see it at the boot screen or it appears on the radar screen). Using the Pi3b, the power meter registers > 5.2Volts and about 0.75amps. Even so, the Pi3b registers voltage error sporadically. Anyone know if that's correct because 5.2V+ seems ok ?

In flight, using the Pi3b, using my cigar lighter usb adapter (same one since years but not Anker) it shows 5.03V (approx) and 0.75amps, never drops below 5v. On a 1.5hr flight I got one wifi 'dropout' where skydemon lost the wifi connection, and reported 'waiting for device'. I also got these kind of issues with the Pi2b, which is what caused me to raise the issue in the first place.

I guess the in-flight voltage is a bit low, right ? I don't really know what voltage levels are required. It seems weird that I get voltage errors with 5.2v+ on the meter at home. Anyone more knowledgeable care to comment ?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2023, 04:11:21 pm by Easy Cruising »

JCurtis

Re: PAW Classic now reports Volt=Error and works intermittently
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2023, 04:10:52 pm »
Was the sporadic lower voltage with the power meter still there? 

The meter will tell you what the output is at the connector.  So you can check the voltage and current draw. The voltage will be lower after the power monitor.  So 5.2v at home should be OK.  Reading 5.03v in flight should just about be OK, assuming the USB cable is short.

Don't leave the power monitor in the circuit for active use. They drop the voltage the end device sees.  USB connectors are quite lossy power-wise, so the added couple of connectors will drop the voltage. 

You could plug the power monitor into a USB port on the Pi, as that will show what the Pi is actually getting voltage wise.

Check the ground connection of your cigarette socket in the aircraft.  If there is any resistance on that, the PAW will see this as a lower voltage when the power draw goes up.

Designer and maker of charge4.harkwood.co.uk, smart universal USB chargers designed for aviation.  USB Type-A and USB-C power without the RF interference. Approved for EASA installs under CS-STAN too.

Easy Cruising

Re: PAW Classic now reports Volt=Error and works intermittently
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2023, 04:48:18 pm »
The sporadic 'Low Volatage' happens whether I have the volt meter attached or not. Honestly, this goes in circles because one person says 'get a voltmeter' to test an existing problem ... then the next says 'maybe the voltmeter is the problem'. So, it looks to me like the Pi units don't need much power, and I supply >5.2v but it still complains and drops out sporadically. Forget the voltmeter and aircraft installation. Right on my desk with stable >5.2v it doesn't work reliably, even with no dongles attached. So wtf ? I see others reporting similar issues. Can it be the Pilotaware board itself or the software is causing this problem .. because those are the common elements ?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2023, 05:05:10 pm by Easy Cruising »

JCurtis

Re: PAW Classic now reports Volt=Error and works intermittently
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2023, 05:04:34 pm »
Voltmeters are great for diagnosis, so see what is being supplied, but they are lossy. 
So we know you get 5.2v from the supply drawing 750ma. That should be fine. 

Something isn't right if you see the lower voltage, even with nothing in the USB ports.  What voltage do you see if you boot the Pi up with the power meter in one of its USB ports?  It will show no current, but the voltage should be close to the 5.2v you have confirmed leaving the power supply.
Designer and maker of charge4.harkwood.co.uk, smart universal USB chargers designed for aviation.  USB Type-A and USB-C power without the RF interference. Approved for EASA installs under CS-STAN too.

Easy Cruising

Re: PAW Classic now reports Volt=Error and works intermittently
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2023, 05:11:11 pm »
Varies between 4.8 and 5.01v when meter attached to a usb socket on the Pi3b. If I attach further dongles it goes as low as 4.62v.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2023, 05:14:37 pm by Easy Cruising »

JCurtis

Re: PAW Classic now reports Volt=Error and works intermittently
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2023, 05:46:01 pm »
OK, that's a fair drop just from the USB cable, but about what's expected.  With the dongles attached it's getting pretty low, so they must be drawing some power.

Low voltage warnings on the Pi kick in around 4.63v (+/-5% so 4.39v to 4.86v). 

Does one particular dongle cause a large drop?  If so, that is probably the culprit, dragging the supply down.  I suspect the cigarette supply has dropped over the years, which they can do depending on the parts used and the design.  Combined with a dongle starting to be a bit iffy too.

Do you see dropouts if you run the Pi at home with SkyDemon hooked up etc.?  From memory, as it's been a while, you can get the PAW running at home, hook up SkyDemon, and just choose 'go flying'.  Other traffic will display etc., but you should see if things drop out on the home power supply.  I'd ignore the low voltage when at home, but see if the dropouts occur.

RAVpower USB supplies are pretty chunky, so should be absolutely fine when testing at home.
Designer and maker of charge4.harkwood.co.uk, smart universal USB chargers designed for aviation.  USB Type-A and USB-C power without the RF interference. Approved for EASA installs under CS-STAN too.

exfirepro

Re: PAW Classic now reports Volt=Error and works intermittently
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2023, 12:14:51 am »
Hi EC,

As the designer of the Charge2 and Charge4 aviation power supplies, Jeremy is the expert when it comes to power supply issues and his advice here certainly bears out anything I would be suggesting myself.

4.8V with no dongles attached certainly sounds low to me - and 4.62V at the USB ports with the other dongles attached is clearly indicative of potential current overdraw in one or more dongles and certainly likely to trip in the Voltage warnings - though actual dropouts are obviously of greater concern than 'warnings'.

If you don't find any problem with the cigarette lighter socket supply voltage or ground resistance, I would certainly suggest swapping in a replacement juicEbitz Core Series Power Cable (with 20AWG power wire) and (if that doesn't improve the situation) another (preferably Anker) USB adapter - restricted at least initially to solely powering the PAW. If that still doesn't resolve the issue we need to ask Lee to take a look at log files from your unit(s) to see if they show any other voltage specific issues or pointers.

Best Regards

Peter

« Last Edit: July 02, 2023, 12:31:33 am by exfirepro »

steveu

Re: PAW Classic now reports Volt=Error and works intermittently
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2023, 12:03:16 pm »
Hi EC,

As the designer of the Charge2 and Charge4 aviation power supplies, Jeremy is the expert when it comes to power supply issues and his advice here certainly bears out anything I would be suggesting myself.


Plus one here for JCurtis.

He's helped me on a friend's trike with a Charge 2 fitted, all problems sorted and none from the Charge 2, cable got broken due to us, new one supplied in the blink of an eye.

The diagnostic mode on the Charge 2/4 allows these sorts of problems to be sniffed very easily...

Easy Cruising

Re: PAW Classic now reports Volt=Error and works intermittently
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2023, 03:57:32 pm »
Thanks to those who responded.