Vector display

[Alanr]

Hi,
You may wish to answer me on this or maybe not due to the fact I am not a Pilotaware user!
I have PowerFlarmFusion in my aircraft.
However I understood that I could avail myself of Vector because it was available to everyone and which I have, perhaps cheekily you may say, been doing since launch and up until a month or so ago I found it extremely useful for checking my flights and that all was working in my aircraft as it should do....I have found it simply brilliant!
However recently it doesn't seem to work properly?... Or maybe not as it used to. It now seems to be not quite right somehow!
Now, and it never used to do this, Vector display shows that I can now see Pilotaware aircraft even though i don't have Pilotaware and my Powerflarmfusion is picking up these aircraft contacts?
It also now,and it never used to, shows me to be seeing exactly the same number of contacts on ADSB per flight as it does on Flarm and also displays exactly the same Vector diagram regardless of putting ADSB or Flarm or even changing the input box to 'All'?

Thanks for the help,

Alan.

[exfirepro]

Hi Alan,

You say you don't have PilotAware, but have been using Vector to check the range of your PowerFlarm Fusion - all well and good so far - that's what it was designed for, and we are perfectly happy for non PilotAware system users to use the tool to compare and where necessary try to improve their own system transmissions.

You then go on to say that...

However recently it doesn't seem to work properly?... Or maybe not as it used to. It now seems to be not quite right somehow!
Now, and it never used to do this, Vector display shows that I can now see Pilotaware aircraft even though i don't have Pilotaware and my Powerflarmfusion is picking up these aircraft contacts?
It also now,and it never used to, shows me to be seeing exactly the same number of contacts on ADSB per flight as it does on Flarm and also displays exactly the same Vector diagram regardless of putting ADSB or Flarm or even changing the input box to 'All'?

There is a bit of confusion here...

Up until a couple of months or so ago, all Vector did was to report transmission patterns FROM individual aircraft (as received by our network of ATOM Ground Stations). These reports are compiled from data received by our ATOM GRID Network from individual aircraft over a period of about a month, from a database search based on that aircraft's individual transmission code (preferably your aircraft ICAO Hex ID). Vector could therefore ONLY report on whatever type of transmission each aircraft has been broadcasting (so if you only have PowerFlarm - it can only report your Flarm transmissions.

With the addition of iGRID to PilotAware, however, we have been developing the system to report traffic RECEIVED by individual PilotAware iGRID Equipped aircraft as these aircraft can now report this data back to the Network via iGRID. These reports can then be produced for appropriately equipped aircraft for each of the available reception modes, by selecting the appropriate Mode 'Type' and selecting the 'RX Direction' option in the Vector Tool to 'Rosetta'. Other than via this arrangement, Vector has no way of reporting Traffic received by individual aircraft and can't possibly report traffic for aircraft which are not PilotAware and iGRID equipped. If this is what you have tried, any reports displayed would therefore be invalid.

I should emphasise, however, that this system is still in 'Beta' development, so I am very interested to work out what you have actually been seeing.

If you provide me with your aircraft ICAO Hex ID, (either on here or by PM), I'd be happy to check the database for you and let you know what I can find.

Best Regards

Peter

[Alanr]

Hi Peter,
Thanks for the reply and thoughts.
I will send you a pm with my Hex code if that is ok.
I have a Trig TT21 ES giving Mode S and ADSB 'out' and PowerFlarmFusion giving ADSB direct 'in' and PowerFlarm direct 'in' and 'out' also Mode S in.

Cheers,
 
Alan. 

[exfirepro]

Hi Alan,

Thanks for the Hex Code.

There are lots of ADSB reports from your aircraft on the Database from our Ground Station Network, going back to February 2021, and for Flarm from March 2021, all with pretty good range reports. Bear in mind, however, that the reports you see on Vector are compiled from a maximum of the past 30 days flights. In your case your 'current' reports are in fact compiled from only 3 Days - namely 23rd September, and 10th & 18th October  - as shown by the calendar dropdown at top right of the Vector Screen, and will vary depending on the number of days, number of flights, number of Ground Stations you have flown within range of and the distance and bearing from each at which your transmissions were received by each Ground Station during the reporting period.

Unfortunately as I explained above, Vector is unable to report on signals actually received by your PowerFlarm Fusion as this type of data is currently ONLY reported back to our network by iGRID equipped PilotAwares.

I hope this clarifies the situation.

Best Regards

Peter

[Alanr]

Thanks Peter for the thoughts..

Basically as far as I can see though Vector used to work properly and at least as far as my setup goes it now appears that it doesn't.Maybe that is just how it is...dunno!
As you can see from the Hex number I sent to you it shows the exactly same number of contacts for ADSB as Flarm which just can't possibly be correct regardless of the input type selected into the box. It also now shows Pilotaware contacts and I don't have Pilotaware! This is all something that has happened to Vector recently.
There is I think something that has been changed in Vector recently and the thought is just maybe it posssibly now it isn't working correctly for Pilotaware users either?

Never mind, thanks anyway. I will just have to go back to using the inbuilt Flarm Vector diagnostics in PowerFlarmFusion which is ok but has to be done when in the aircraft which is not so convenient.

Thanks anyway for your efforts,

Alan.

[exfirepro]

Hi again Alan,

OK, definitely something strange going on, because when I looked at your range reports yesterday (via the same link you are presumably using - on the website at https://pilotaware.com ) Vector was behaving exactly as I expected it to, and showing a significantly higher number of FLARM contacts than ADSB ones for the last 3 days flights (which is what I would expect). Remember number of contacts in this respect is the number of data packets received, not the number of aircraft.

(I also have an admin log in which gives me much wider access to the network and database, which is how I could check your older flight reports, but deliberately didn’t use that route to check your coverage so we would both be working from the same source.)

We need to investigate this further - I’ll have a think about what might be going on and get back to you.

Best Regards

Peter

[PaulSS]

Presumably it's got something to do with iGrid, since that's the only thing that's really changed.

[Alanr]

Hi Peter,

Pleased you are going to investigate further.
From my viewpoint something is not quite right with Vector currently. All I do is input my CAA Hex code that is emitted by my Trig transponder and the resultant vector plot displayed cannot possibly be correct for the reasons previously stated.

I would just though like to state, in case some think otherwise seeing as I have a competitor EC product in my aircraft, that I have no axe to grind on this. I am just merely reporting what I observe to you having previously used the Vector display successfully in the past

Cheers,

Alan

[exfirepro]

Hi again Alan,

No suggestion here of any axe grinding I assure you, but I am still confused.

I have just checked the online Vector Tool (again!) and it is working exactly as intended.

You state that...

As you can see from the Hex number I sent to you it [Vector] shows the exactly same number of contacts for ADSB as Flarm which just can't possibly be correct regardless of the input type selected into the box.

No I can't.... - because it doesn't. It clearly shows different numbers of contacts from your Flarm and ADSB transmissions.

I have attached anonymised screenshots of the transmission patterns from your aircraft from the combined flights on 29th September, 10th & 18th October. The first screenshot shows the combined ADSB and Flarm transmissions, with the next two showing separate individual reports of Flarm and ADSB transmissions, from which you can clearly see that the number of contacts is only the same in the first screenshot, because it is reporting the combined total of ADSB and FLARM transmissions for the 3 days (in this case with Transmission 'Type' set to 'All'). The other two screenshots clearly show different numbers of contacts.

You also say...

It also now shows Pilotaware contacts and I don't have Pilotaware! This is all something that has happened to Vector recently.
There is I think something that has been changed in Vector recently and the thought is just maybe it posssibly now it isn't working correctly for Pilotaware users either?

Previously reported as...

Vector display shows that I can now see Pilotaware aircraft even though i don't have Pilotaware and my Powerflarmfusion is picking up these aircraft contacts?

Again, this is simply not the case.

I have already explained that for PilotAware equipped aircraft, Vector can gather reception data from individual PilotAware Units, via iGRID (if the PilotAware is iGRID equipped and connected), but that this is still in Beta development - and for Non-PilotAware systems, Vector can only report transmissions from the aircraft as received by the ATOM-GRID Network - so in your case (being Non-PilotAware) it can ONLY report on your ADSB or Flarm Transmissions as received by the ATOM-GRID Network.

Finally, remember that you are accessing Vector online on the PilotAware Server, so if it doesn't work properly for you, it would be the same for everyone else who tries to use it - and it clearly isn't!

I am therefore at a complete loss to see what you are reporting. As far as I can see, Vector is working just the way it was designed to.

Best Regards

Peter

[Smaragd]

I suggest that Alanr is forgetting to press 'Go' each time he makes a change.

[exfirepro]

Hi Smaragd,

That is certainly the 'obvious' conclusion from what has been reported, though as Alan has been using Vector for some time I had ruled that out as unlikely - at least until I had done some more extensive tests.

I also received the following by email yesterday from another 'Non-PilotAware' Trig and PowerFlarm user who advised...

Peter,

I have adsb out via a trig and power Flarm with no PAW fitted.

Hex code 40xxxx

Perhaps you can use mine as a comparison. I am definitely showing more Flarm hits, 41,000 as opposed to adsb 8,000 hits over five days.

I have just run checks on both the Database and Vector for this second aircraft, with the same end result - Lots of Flarm and ADSB Data (as expected), but again NO PilotAware data (as no PilotAware fitted to the aircraft).

I attach the (again anonymised) Vector reports from this second aircraft for comparison (I didn't post the combined one but the result was the same).

Bearing in mind that the principal purpose of Vector is not to report long range transmission, but to help identify obvious gaps in the aircrafts' transmission pattern due to obscuration or poor antenna placement, the fact that Vector has reported a higher level of Flarm contacts is not unusual. This is primarily due to two factors - firstly, the Flarm receivers on the ATOM Stations are using higher gain antennas, and usually more sensitive receivers than the ADSB side and secondly, to avoid swamping our server drives with ADSB data from high power transmissions, we have set a range limit for ADSB reporting at a maximum of 60Km - while Flarm data continues to be received (and stored and reported) from greater range where this is the case - as demonstrated by the coverage charts.

Alanr,

Although I can't completely rule out any possibility that there may have been a 'glitch' in the system when you tried to carry out your recent Vector analysis, I hope you can now accept my explanations as to why in my opinion Vector couldn't have reported that you were receiving PilotAware reports via your PowerFLARM Fusion (even if for some reason you were - see below) and that Vector is working as intended.

I am of course aware that due to ongoing developments, the OGN Network can now receive and display PilotAware Equipped Aircraft - as can Stratux Flarm (Europe Edition) - due to upgrades to their receiver software. The Flarm side of our ATOM software also incorporates the same provision (though we had to disable the PilotAware Reporting function from the OGN side of ATOM as it was misreporting the ATOM transmitters as aircraft). Under our agreement with the OGN we send all our Flarm / OGN data on to the OGN servers to supplement their own receivers, though we don't use OGN data from the OGN Network for our rebroadcasts as we use the data directly received by our own ATOM Stations. OGN data is however used by other systems such as the 'SafeSky' App to advise their users of the presence of Flarm, OGN Tracker, Fanet and PilotAware aircraft - so this is a potential source of PilotAware aircraft positions, which is why I asked if anyone in the plane might have been running SafeSky. Edit: Sorry, just realised I hadn't asked you this - I must have got mixed up with another thread . It is of course possible that Flarm have developed their software to add PilotAware (or SafeSky) reception, though I am not aware of this. If you send me your Flarm ID, (assuming it is different from your ICAO Hex) I can also check for that on our database and if you have any screenshots or other evidence to show that Vector (or your Flarm Tool) is reporting you receiving PilotAware via your PowerFLARM Fusion, I would be very interested in seeing them.

Best Regards
Peter

[Alanr]

Peter,
Thanks for looking in to this. Just for reference though I do know how to use the Vector analysis and do know that you have to press each time 'Go' !!!!

As you say it now works perfectly and as it should do and did up until some weeks/months ago!
Something has changed or been repaired is my only conclusion because it certainly hasn't been working correctly recently and hasn't worked properly for quite some time.

In addition it now no longer shows Pilotaware contacts as I wouldn't expect it to seeing that i don't have Pilotaware!....It did previously.

If my query has prompted a repair then that is brilliant!
All is now good!

Thanks and bye for now,

Alan.