Mixed community and SafeSky

[Hitch]

Installed an Atom station at my home airfield of EGCA. Working successfully for nearly a year now. Really pleased with the performance. 9 home based aircraft and 1 helicopter all use PAW. There are also 2 home based nano microlight using Fanet +. We also have scale radio control aircraft and scale drones (The scale aircraft stop flying when full size fly)

Recently we had a new nano microlight arrival in the hangar. The owner is planning to fit a PAW later this year. However at this time he is trying to make do with the SafeSky App in his mobile phone. He asked if we could test his current SafeSky conspicuity in the area covered by our Atom station. His nano is super slow moving and hard to spot in the sky with mk1 eyeball.  The existing home based nano microlights use Fanet + and generate a strong signal. However our Atom station didn’t display the new arrivals SafeSky sourced image. Though oddly live.glidernet.org did display the new arrival.

My question is, generally speaking, assuming the SafeSky is programmed effectively and is in line of sight of a the cellular network, ought the fast moving aircraft all equipped with PAW (some with dongle, some not)  see this SafeSky nano and others similarly equipped?

[Hitch]

I should add the Vector analysis on his SafeSky Device ID 64038E didn’t reveal anything

[Admin]

Hi
Dont forget SafeSky is not an emitter, vector works by detection of emitters and there relative position and track to atom receivers
SafeSky relies upon the cellular network for receiving, not ATOM / GRID

Thx
Lee

[Hitch]

Thanks Lee.  Your statement relating to signal reception understood.

So, to this point my understanding had been that when a SkySafe device is in communication with the cellular network it’s data was ultimately relayed to the glider OGN network. Consequently my assumption was the SkySafe data would de facto also be seen on on the ATOM station display receiving OGN from broadband. Furthermore be uploaded through the network and then the ATOM station or cellular to the Rosetta. Correct?

Or does a Pilotaware Rosetta never see SkySafe data because it isn’t shared?

Thanks for all you do. What a superb product our PAW Rosetta is. Just back from ten days touring Scandinavia. The weather display was extremely helpful!

[Admin]

I think we can add the SafeSky data
We want to ensure the timestamps are correct first

Thx
Lee

[Hitch]

Thank-you Lee!

[exfirepro]

Hi Hitch,

Not being negative here - just trying to understand and clarify the position.

As I understand it, the current position with SafeSky is that in return for a fee, it reports the position of each user's mobile device to the SafeSky Network via GSM. Relevant positions are then forwarded via GSM to other nearby SafeSky Customers. From what you say, it appears that they may also forward their users' position data to the OGN Network.

Under our agreement with the OGN, PilotAware ATOM-GRID also forwards 'OGN-type' data (Flarm, OGN Tracker and Fanet+ data) to the OGN Network, but primarily for reasons of latency, PilotAware ATOM units don't currently transmit data from the OGN Network - hence (partly) why SafeSky Positions don't currently appear on PilotAware. PilotAware ATOM-GRID currently only rebroadcasts 'OGN-type Data' which has been directly received by stations in the PilotAware ATOM-GRID Network, (plus verified MLAT and other data such as METARs and Weather from our current partner companies). In addition to being able to verify the accuracy of the SafeSky data, adding SafeSky positions to the ATOM-GRID network would presumably also require an agreement with SafeSky.

I will await potential developments with interest.

Best Regards

Peter

[Hitch]

Hi Peter

Here is the actual source data for the Nano microlight that displayed on the glider network, but not displayed contemporaneously on my Atom. Hope it helps understanding. Thanks for your great work too. It would be amazing if these rather basic SafeSky conspicuity devices could be seen by PAW equipped aircraft. Fingers crossed that Lee can work his magic.

Regards

Bob



.::Aircraft:
CN: bb0
Regist.: Nass
Device Id: 64038E
Type: Plane
Model: Ultralight
Last time: 18:40:05
Latitude: 53.304829
Longitude: -1.43117
Altitude: 741 ft
G.Speed: 0 kt
Track: 0
io
Vz: +0.0 kt
Receiver: XCC64038E

[Admin]

FYI

A new release of basestation software was pushed out today, this includes an enhancement to uplink SafeSky data (if within timestamped parameters) to listening PilotAwares

We have added the same capability into the Rosetta software to be provided data over iGRID - that will be released shortly

thx
Lee

[Hitch]

@ Lee. Amazingly rapid roll out. Three days from request to implementation. Tell me any other platform that could do that so efficiently. Answer;

Nobody does it better than the Pilotaware team!

Regards

Bob AKA Hitch.

[Keithvinning]

 And of course, iGRID as you have seen in Norway and will see in Italy

[steveu]

A warning to users of SafeSky - when I asked them about latency for a piece for Skywings last year it seemed like they were accepting very high levels of latency.

Whilst Lee can filter this for the PAW domain, the same is not true of SafeSky <-> SafeSky or indeed SafeSky <-> OGN.

From PG competitions, we know that latency isn't a big issue for tracking, but is a big issue for up to date situational awareness with flying decisions being made.

 

[mariko]

A warning to users of SafeSky - when I asked them about latency for a piece for Skywings last year it seemed like they were accepting very high levels of latency.

I also know the same, but i was unable to understood how high the latency may be with SS. How many seconds?

[steveu]

I also know the same, but i was unable to understood how high the latency may be with SS. How many seconds?

The answer we had from Safesky in October last year was a maximum of 19 seconds for the round trip for originator device to receiver device. The next two levels down were 4 and 2 seconds.

[exfirepro]

Hi Hitch, et al,

Follow up to this thread -

On a recent flight back to East Fortune from Eshott, working Scottish Information (who are ‘non-Radar’), I picked up an intermittent visual (on screen) traffic notification, closing from my 5 o’clock at about 10 miles out. I then heard Scottish calling the other traffic to advise them of my presence, so called in to update my position and level. Scottish then confirmed that the other traffic had received this update, to which he replied he could see me on his traffic screen, but not visually (I was running Mode-S / ADSB Out from my transponder + PilotAware with a recent Beta into SkyDemon). Scottish then notified me of the other traffic’s position, to which I replied that it was still well outside my visual range, but appearing intermittently on my screen in my 5/4 o’clock at about 8 miles and that I would keep a good lookout.

We both continued Northwards with the other traffic slowly catching and overhauling me out to my right - coming to within a mile or so on my screen as he passed, but still not visual. The traffic then called Scottish to advise that he was changing his plan to drop in at East Fortune, at which point I realised that he was a friend normally based down south, who flies a QuickR and a very slimline single-seat SSDR ‘Pulsar’ low-wing 3-axis microlight taildragger, - which is what he was flying at the time. Capable of 120Kt cruise and painted green and black it was clearly not readily visible even at around a mile against the patchwork ground below.

On landing, a few minutes behind him, my thoughts were confirmed as it turned out to be the pilot who I had thought it was - and that he was flying his Pulsar. I asked him what EC he was running and he advised that he was ONLY running SafeSky on his phone with no other EC devices in the aircraft. This explained why our mutual reception was intermittent as it was completely dependent at his end on my PilotAware Signal being forwarded to SafeSky via the OGN network and then to his cellphone, and at my end on his position being passed to PilotAware’s Network, then via ATOM Rebroadcast or at the initial location more likely directly to my PilotAware via iGRID.

AS this was the first time I was aware that I had actually come across SafeSky, I immediately reported my findings back to Lee (Admin), who asked if I could confirm the positional reliability of the SafeSky reports. Unfortunately I was unable to do so for the reasons explained above, including the fact that the position reports from his aircraft were ‘intermittent’ at my end,  but was able to confirm that the reports were at least good enough to prompt me as to the presence and likely position and relative height of the other aircraft, which allowed me to keep a good lookout for it as we continued en route.

Best Regards

Peter