Author Topic: 3G/4G Dongle and iGRID  (Read 2075 times)

Biker

3G/4G Dongle and iGRID
« on: June 16, 2022, 10:52:44 am »
Hi,
I was wondering if it would be possible to configure Rosetta to work with a 3G/4G Dongle and a prepaid data SIM for iGRID. We have a syndicated aircraft with a permanently installed Rosetta and multiple users with various phones and Wi-Fi passwords.  If it was possible to permanently install a 3G/4G Dongle to supply the required data for iGRID then the system would work for all our members even those with no data plans.

Many thanks.

steveu

Re: 3G/4G Dongle and iGRID
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2022, 02:48:21 pm »
This is how I did it - used a small Mifi type thing rather than a USB dongle:

http://forum.pilotaware.com/index.php/topic,2196.msg22879.html#msg22879

exfirepro

Re: 3G/4G Dongle and iGRID
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2022, 04:57:33 pm »
Post Significantly Edited (and extended) following @steveu’s post below, to clarify where I am talking about the use of a Portable MiFi Router, such as used by @steveu and others, and my own testing with a Mobile Phone Hotspot and a more basic 4G USB Dongle.

Hi Biker / All,

While I personally have had excellent results with iGRID over a prolonged pre-release testing period of well over six months around the South of Scotland and during longer trips to and from the likes of Popham) using a hotspot on my Samsung Galaxy S9 Plus phone, initial ‘comparison’ trials - comparing performance between my Mobile Phone Hotspot and a 20 odd quid ‘Chinese’ 4G USB dongle around identical test routes in South Scotland / Northumberland showed the iGRID coverage using the USB Dongle to be very poor in comparison to those I was getting using my Mobile Phone Hotspot.

That could of course have been due at least in part to different GSM networks (my phone runs on - and is locked to - O2, and the SIM I was using in the (unlocked) USB Dongle was ‘SMARTY’, which uses the ‘Three’ Network). Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to test comparatively by ‘swapping the networks’, as the SIMs are completely different sizes* and whilst I now have a second O2 SIM which I could try in the USB Dongle, the phone is still locked to O2, so I can’t run the phone on the Three Network SIM.

(* Yes, I know I can buy SIM adapters, but I would also have to get my phone unlocked to allow me to run the SMARTY SIM in it.)

Having said that, I suppose I really should revisit my Mobile Phone / USB Dongle testing to complete the picture in the interests of true and open comparison, but in light of the apparent clear and significant superiority while using my phone to provide the hotspot, I have difficulty in trying to justify the time and additional expense which would be necessary to do so. In truth, I strongly suspect that there is significance in the (presumably) much higher phone company development budget resulting in more reliable GSM coverage and connectivity than that provided by the ‘cheap and cheerful’ USB dongle.

Having carried out the initial tests using my Mobile Phone Hotspot and 4G USB Dongle, I was initially very impressed with the very positive results reported by @steveu, using his Huawei 4G MiFi device.

When I first read Steve’s reports, I was very tempted to buy a Portable MiFi Unit to compare it to my own Mobile Phone and 4G Dongle results over the same route and on the same networks I had been using, but was put off by the fact that the model used by Steve (which came with external GSM antennas**) was no longer available. I was also aware that Derek, (another tester) had already ordered a newer version of Steve’s unit for testing, so decided to await his results - which turned out to be very poor, to the extent that he at one point actually suggested he would be as well to throw his (newly purchased) MiFi Device out of the aircraft window.

(** while antennas external to the device itself give the ability to reduce potential obscuration and should therefore increase potential coverage, there is a strong argument that we should not attempt to deliberately increase coverage when using GSM devices in the air).

Whilst I am happy to accept @Steve’s positive results and am fully aware that @Derek’s negative ones might not be typical of all currently available MiFi Devices (though he did give the device a fair trial and spent a lot of time trying it in different positions - including in various orientations high up on his font screen), we must take a balanced view and IMO therefore, the jury is still out on the performance of currently available Portable MiFi devices as compared to Mobile Phones when used in aircraft, with 4G Dongles (in my experience) coming in a poor third place.

There is, however, obviously a strong case for further testing / feedback by the wider community of all 3 types of device, including all the various makes / models of mobile phones and the full range of available networks across the country. The issue of the siting / location of the device within the aircraft has also been found to be significant and would benefit from further investigation.

Having said all that, my advice for the present - based on the fact that it definitely works, is - try your phone hotspot first, and see how you get on, then if you wan’t to try one or other of the alternative ‘options’ - including ‘in tablet SIMs’ - feel free to do so - and let us know how you get on.

Best Regards

Peter
« Last Edit: June 17, 2022, 08:35:34 am by exfirepro »

steveu

Re: 3G/4G Dongle and iGRID
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2022, 06:13:26 pm »
Hi Biker,

As, @steveu says, he has had very positive results using his MiFi device, though I am aware of others using similar devices who have reported wanting to throw theirs out of the aircraft window.

While I personally have had excellent results using a hotspot on my Galaxy S10 phone for several months now (all through pre-release testing around the South of Scotland and during longer trips to and from the likes of Popham), my initial ‘comparison’ trials - comparing performance between the phone and a 20 odd quid ‘Chinese’ 3/4G dongle around identical test routes in South Scotland / Northumberland showed the dongle to be comparatively extremely unreliable.

In order for this discussion to be accurate, I think we need to distinguish between USB Dongles and separate Mifi/mobile broadband routers.



Dongle



Mifi or mobile broadband router...

Please can we clarify which one of the two we are talking about?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2022, 12:22:35 pm by steveu »

Biker

Re: 3G/4G Dongle and iGRID
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2022, 10:49:33 pm »
Hi There,
I am talking about a 3G/4G Dongle with an internal SIM card and preferably an external antenna that would supply the Rosetta with an internet connection for iGRID such as the ‘Waveshare SIM7600E-H 4G DONGLE with Antenna”. This would be permanently installed in the aircraft with its own data SIM so that no member of the Syndicate would be required to use their own telephone as a data source.

Biker.

exfirepro

Re: 3G/4G Dongle and iGRID
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2022, 08:41:34 am »
Hi Both,

Yes, sorry Steve, as I have said before elsewhere - I am not decrying your results with your Huawei MiFi in any way - I just haven’t seen enough evidence (yet) to prove the effectiveness of currently available MiFi Units as compared to my own (consistent) results with my Mobile Phone.

I have revised and expanded my earlier post to clarify my viewpoint and remain happy to be enlightened.

Best Regards as always....

Peter

exfirepro

Re: 3G/4G Dongle and iGRID
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2022, 09:14:40 am »
@Biker,

I have just looked up your suggested Dongle online. ( https://www.waveshare.com/sim7600e-h-4g-dongle.htm and https://www.waveshare.com/wiki/SIM7600G-H_4G_DONGLE for anyone interested).

The  ‘external’ GSM antenna should certainly improve the signal over the small internal one in the type of Dongle Lee and I (and others) used for testing (see https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/373110430035? ) - in my case mounted and powered out in the clear on a small portable power pack away from the Rosetta itself. BUT the device you refer to is clearly intended to be directly mounted into (and powered from) it’s ‘host’ via a USB port, whereas PAW is configured to connect to an ‘external’ GSM Hotspot via WiFi - so I doubt the one you have suggested would be compatible without significant modification to the PAW software.

Lee might be interested in looking into the concept however to see if there is any potential mileage there.

Regards

Peter
« Last Edit: June 17, 2022, 10:31:08 am by exfirepro »

steveu

Re: 3G/4G Dongle and iGRID
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2022, 12:43:27 pm »
Yes, sorry Steve, as I have said before elsewhere - I am not decrying your results with your Huawei MiFi in any way - I just haven’t seen enough evidence (yet) to prove the effectiveness of currently available MiFi Units as compared to my own (consistent) results with my Mobile Phone.

Peter,

I'm not arguing with your points, I'm saying that we need to get the terminology agreed if we are to get results that everyone can use and understand. I note your edits and clarifications.

I agree with your point that the light version of  Raspbian we use may not have the necessary drivers to recognise a 4G USB dongle. Your links seem to reinforce this. Also, the power for this would need to come from the Pi. Newer 4G USB dongles seem to work with just power via USB and provide Wifi as well as USB tethering, so may no need drivers.

The Mifi (mobile broadband router) will have its own battery and can be charged from a USB socket elsewhere on the aircraft.

I'm not trying to convert or convince anyone. I have my coverage tested via Aircrew for iGRid and I'm happy it works. You have evidence there (via links on the beta group) and if you want more, it's available but this is heading off topic as it won't help others get their set ups working without descending into techie stuff that may overly complicated.

I had a big cheat here in that I had used the Mifi in question for 6 years prior to putting to use for iGrid, and it was surplus to requirements so no cost implication. The same applies to your phone - it's there and for those with phones that can maintain a 4G Internet connection and remain connected to  Wifi network, it's a no brainer to just use them...

As the forum refuses to link properly to the images I posted, I've grabbed a couple and wish to clarify the terminology I'm using.

Pictures attached.


AlanG

Re: 3G/4G Dongle and iGRID
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2022, 08:37:52 pm »
Hi Guys

we seem o be forgetting that Lee has now made the wifi much easier to accommodate syndicates with different phone hotspot SSIDs and passwords and maybe it is worth mentioning to Biker that each individual syndicate member would only have to input their hotspot SSID & password once and the Paw would automatically select it for future flights so long as you are out of range of any other wifi signals such as the local club/airfield wifi.
There is also the option for each syndicate member to reset their individual phone hotspot SSID & password to the same values.  Not a great security risk I would have thought but may be an inconvenience if you have other devices that you regularly link to your phone.
Neither of these solution obviously help anyone without a data provision on their phone.

Regards
Alan

Biker

Re: 3G/4G Dongle and iGRID
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2022, 12:53:47 pm »
Many thanks for all the advice. I think I will initially set it up as standard and see how syndicate members get along with it.  If we encounter problems I might use the ‘HUAWEI E8372 WiFi/WLAN LTE modem‘ as the USB is just for power and you can fit two external aerials to give better 3G/4G reception.

Biker

steveu

Re: 3G/4G Dongle and iGRID
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2022, 02:08:57 pm »
If we encounter problems I might use the ‘HUAWEI E8372 WiFi/WLAN LTE modem‘ as the USB is just for power and you can fit two external aerials to give better 3G/4G reception.

I ran my Mifi with external antennae and there was a massive improvement, but the model of Mifi/antenna I used had small and flimsy connectors, so lasted about 3 years... Worth looking at the connector types and sizes of antenna recommended...

PaulSS

Re: 3G/4G Dongle and iGRID
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2022, 04:58:43 pm »
I've been looking on the WWW and, albeit amateur YouTube videos etc, every one I've seen so far has shown them getting worse results with external antennas.

In a totally unscientific comment, I did find the same with a Huawei super-duper 4G router I bought for the house when we first moved in. The Internet down the pipes was pants, so I invested in the very best 4G router (just over a year ago). On the router I got 4 green lights, showing the signal level and pretty good performance, given our location. I then fitted a Ponting (?) super-duper external antenna. This was fitted to my chimney and pointed directly at the local 4G mast. The 4 green lights dropped to 3  ::)

I do like the idea of just plugging the dongle into my PAW and just forgetting it. In theory, I THINK, I wouldn't have to do anything else to enable the GSM functionality. After all, PAW is getting 4G through the same port as it's getting it from a WIFI adapter and my hotspot, so I don't think there's any difference.

I suppose there's only one way to find out.....unless Lee tells me not to bother in the meantime  :)

Deker

Re: 3G/4G Dongle and iGRID
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2022, 10:10:16 pm »
I've been using a Wuawei E5576-322 MiFi  (internal antennas only) with mixed results.
Good coverage up to 2,500 ft but sketchy at anything above.
It's fitted with a Smarty SIM (Three network I believe), but which network provides the best 3g / 4g coverage? I've been reading EE is better in this respect than Three.

So not only should we consider the type of dongle / MiFi unit, type of antennas and position in the aircraft, but also and possibly more importantly, which provider will give the most consistent coverage.

ATB
Deker.


steveu

Re: 3G/4G Dongle and iGRID
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2022, 12:08:19 pm »
I've been using a Wuawei E5576-322 MiFi  (internal antennas only) with mixed results.
Good coverage up to 2,500 ft but sketchy at anything above.

This has been my experience. I'm using a Huawei E5377 with internal antennas.

It's fitted with a Smarty SIM (Three network I believe), but which network provides the best 3g / 4g coverage? I've been reading EE is better in this respect than Three.

So not only should we consider the type of dongle / MiFi unit, type of antennas and position in the aircraft, but also and possibly more importantly, which provider will give the most consistent coverage.

I use GiffGaff (O2 MVNO) for rural Kent, as so far whilst not the fastest, it seems to have good coverage. Before sticking up a mobile broadband router at the club strip, I did a survey and again O2 was the best for that location. But I think that there's not the advantage when airborne, and any network has to have wider performance advantages for more locations before this is worth taking into account?

Another factor to consider from Keith's obscurarton lectures is where I have placed the MiFi, which is currently on top of the dash, this would cause noticeable downward and forward obscuration due to the engine, which can only get worse with height. I'm now thinking about a location that is easy to see/reach but under the seat area.

steveu

Re: 3G/4G Dongle and iGRID
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2022, 12:27:34 pm »

Another factor to consider from Keith's obscuration lectures is where I have placed the MiFi, which is currently on top of the dash, this would cause noticeable downward and forward obscuration due to the engine, which can only get worse with height. I'm now thinking about a location that is easy to see/reach but under the seat area.

I flew a course, with the MiFi on the dash, Skyranger classic, high curved dash, MiFi in front of pilot. Average results.

Moved MiFi to just behind seats, in between tanks, sited on lower fuselage skin. Flew the same course at same height.

Noticeable improvement.

I'm guessing obscuration to the sides, so not many towers a long way off, and completely clear downwards...

More trials to be done.