Author Topic: Mode S 3D and bearing less overlap?  (Read 1893 times)

MartC

Mode S 3D and bearing less overlap?
« on: November 04, 2020, 04:17:27 pm »
So, completed a permanent install of Pilotaware Rosetta into our Jodel at beginning of year, just before first Covid lockdown. Have had limited air trials and with bearing less targets set to 'medium', +/-500ft and 3D switched to on, C/S filter active. PAW is connected by Farnell cable to our Funke transponder with ADSB-out and aircraft hex ID added to both devices. External antennae fitted to metal plate below fuselage with spacing of around 1m between PAW and transponder aerials.

The issue we are seeing is multiple bearing less target reports in quick succession (I believe for the same aircraft). Some of these appear to be transmitting either ADSB or PAW, but we are getting bearing less alerts for the same targets. Could be antenna blanking with the direct target information dropping out, replaced instantly with a bearing less alert, then back to direct target information.

Its very distracting and not helpful to the point that we are considering disabling bearing less all together.

Question - is it possible for an aircraft to transmit both direct ADSB information (say from a Skyecho) and bearingless information simultaneously (say from Mode C transponder)? I am certain this appears to be the case occasionally. I imagine that this would happen if the target flyer had different hex ID in different devices, but assuming that is not the case, could this be due to Mode S 3D multilateral targets falling back or going in and out to bearingless due to blanking or loss of radar interrogation?

Also, the bearingless reports sometimes seem continuous over and over for (apparently) the same target, a continuous running alert report, whereas I thought there would be maybe one report at distant range, then one at closer range, in which case one might expect maybe three alerts over a few minutes.

The direct targets seem to work fine, occasionally disappearing and reappearing.

How is the Mode S 3D multilaterated /bearingless process supposed to work. I would like to think they would be exclusive, i.e. once you had a multilaterated target it would stay that way and not be mirrored by a bearingless report.

We would like to retain bearingless targets for the potentially useful level information, but unless we can eradicate some of the clutter and confusion of alerts, it will have to be disabled in favour of direct target info only. Hopefully, things will improve as more people fit and fly with EC devices following the CAA funding offer.

We have now reset settings to 'ultra short range' to see if things improve.

Thanks.

Admin

Re: Mode S 3D and bearing less overlap?
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2020, 04:37:15 pm »
So, completed a permanent install of Pilotaware Rosetta into our Jodel at beginning of year, just before first Covid lockdown. Have had limited air trials and with bearing less targets set to 'medium', +/-500ft and 3D switched to on, C/S filter active. PAW is connected by Farnell cable to our Funke transponder with ADSB-out and aircraft hex ID added to both devices. External antennae fitted to metal plate below fuselage with spacing of around 1m between PAW and transponder aerials.
The issue we are seeing is multiple bearing less target reports in quick succession (I believe for the same aircraft). Some of these appear to be transmitting either ADSB or PAW, but we are getting bearing less alerts for the same targets. Could be antenna blanking with the direct target information dropping out, replaced instantly with a bearing less alert, then back to direct target information.

Its very distracting and not helpful to the point that we are considering disabling bearing less all together.
Understood

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Question - is it possible for an aircraft to transmit both direct ADSB information (say from a Skyecho) and bearingless information simultaneously (say from Mode C transponder)?
This is totally possible, some background information
ADS-B from a transponder, SkyEcho, and a Mode-S from a transponder, all emit your ICAO code, and so can therefore be identified as the same Aircraft, this is NOT the case for a Mode-C emission. Mode-C has no component to identify and attach to your aircraft. This led to a lot of work to identify when a Mode-C emission is linked to a Mode-S or ADS-B.

Your question of Mode-C and SkyEcho, is the most likely scenario and is quite annoying, BTW, you can disable Mode-C warnings, but keeping Mode-S warnings.
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I am certain this appears to be the case occasionally. I imagine that this would happen if the target flyer had different hex ID in different devices, but assuming that is not the case, could this be due to Mode S 3D multilateral targets falling back or going in and out to bearingless due to blanking or loss of radar interrogation?
A different HEX ID is a completely different problem, as I mentioned Mode-C has no HEX ID association

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Also, the bearingless reports sometimes seem continuous over and over for (apparently) the same target, a continuous running alert report, whereas I thought there would be maybe one report at distant range, then one at closer range, in which case one might expect maybe three alerts over a few minutes.
This is supposed to work in the manner you describe. If you provide your TRACK file for your flight we can investigate exactly what has happened.

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The direct targets seem to work fine, occasionally disappearing and reappearing.

How is the Mode S 3D multilaterated /bearingless process supposed to work. I would like to think they would be exclusive, i.e. once you had a multilaterated target it would stay that way and not be mirrored by a bearingless report.
Yes, it is one or the other, you should not get a bearingless warning for a Mode-S/3D positioned aircraft.
There may be a short overlap as an aircraft switches from one to another - but not a permanent overlap

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We would like to retain bearingless targets for the potentially useful level information, but unless we can eradicate some of the clutter and confusion of alerts, it will have to be disabled in favour of direct target info only. Hopefully, things will improve as more people fit and fly with EC devices following the CAA funding offer.

We have now reset settings to 'ultra short range' to see if things improve.


OK, in summary, please let us have access to your track file so we can take a look, this would help greatly
Thx
Lee


MartC

Re: Mode S 3D and bearing less overlap?
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2020, 04:44:31 pm »
Lee many thanks for your comprehensive response:

"you can disable Mode-C warnings, but keep Mode-S" - didn't know this, can you point me at the particular setting, that sounds worth exploring.

As regards the track file, PAW is permanent install in the aircraft so I would need to go back out and extract - how do I access the track files and load them onto my iPad or iPhone?

Admin

Re: Mode S 3D and bearing less overlap?
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2020, 06:05:46 pm »
Lee many thanks for your comprehensive response:

"you can disable Mode-C warnings, but keep Mode-S" - didn't know this, can you point me at the particular setting, that sounds worth exploring.

On the Configure page your options are
- Disable
- Mode-S ** choose this one **
- Mode-CS
- Mode-CS+Filter

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As regards the track file, PAW is permanent install in the aircraft so I would need to go back out and extract - how do I access the track files and load them onto my iPad or iPhone?

Go to the PilotAware hotspot page 192.168.1.1 and select 'Track' from the top options
Select Download for the track (in date format) relating to your flight

Whichever device you use will require a download storage capability, not sure if iPad or iPhone has that by default
I think I have some utility installed to save downloaded files, can possibly do with dropbox too

Thx
Lee

MartC

Re: Mode S 3D and bearing less overlap?
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2020, 12:45:10 pm »
Hi Lee,

I have accessed and downloaded some of the recent track files, they seem to be about 4mb each - how do I send them to you?

Martin

Admin

Re: Mode S 3D and bearing less overlap?
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2020, 02:31:27 pm »
Hi Lee,

I have accessed and downloaded some of the recent track files, they seem to be about 4mb each - how do I send them to you?

Martin

I will send a PM
Thx
Lee