Why no ADSB ( again )

[marioair]

I really don’t understand the business case for not supporting ADSB, having read the article on the PaW site.

https://pilotaware.com/Documents/PilotAware%20and%20ADSB.pdf

It sounds to me, if you had an ADSB module:

• People would pay extra for it.
• You’d pretty much put to bed the “Flarm v SE v PaW debate"
• It would probably expand the adoption in the rest of Europe
• With a bigger user base it would accelerate user base but also lead to broader adoption (hopefully) of ground stations
• You’d get browny points from the regulator, CAT, ANSPs (and infringement team )
• And because your product is modular, the ADSB module can be ripped out in 5 years when the regulator actually produces a format which doesn’t saturate the freq band

It soooo frustrating 

[steveu]

Just go and buy a Sky Echo 2, claim the rebate, and move on...

Or alternatively, provide the certification costs for an ADS-B module... got a six or seven figure sum doing nothing?

[marioair]

I’m happy with my PaW and don’t want two bits of kit to worry about.

A 6/7 figure sum - I know who has some cash spare ...... DfT apparently. They should’ve just allowed PaW to certify a module

Are you suggesting SE2 are making a loss?

[JCurtis]

Just go and buy a Sky Echo 2, claim the rebate, and move on...

Or alternatively, provide the certification costs for an ADS-B module... got a six or seven figure sum doing nothing?

ADS-B transmitters are required to be certified to legally operate. To get certification you have many hurdles to jump through. I spent a little time a few years back wondering what the costs would be to create an OEM module to licence, I stopped counting at £500,000. Given the number of sales is low (Relatively speaking) and must be done in assured facilities, using assured and traceable parts, it wasn’t financially viable.  At a technical level it isn’t too hard, but proving to the authorities it won’t disrupt CAT and cause TCAS to go mad, is “reassuringly expensive”.

You can buy/licence modules from 3rd parties, I never got a firm price (need to enter into a commercial NDA) for a bare module. You then have to integrate that into a product, test it, and manage updating the firmware in it as and when required (which you have to pay for too).

How have  uAvionix done it? Well they have had headline $10,000,000 in venture capital behind them, $5,000,000 from Airbus.

[JCurtis]

I’m happy with my PaW and don’t want two bits of kit to worry about.

A 6/7 figure sum - I know who has some cash spare ...... DfT apparently. They should’ve just allowed PaW to certify a module

Are you suggesting SE2 are making a loss?

DfT can’t sign off an ADS-B transmitter, the specs are set in stone in various documents. SE2 has the benefit of some serious venture capital which helps. They probably burnt though it all in a year or two.

Edit: you can buy a uAvionox Ping1090 OEM module (The world’s smallest ADS-B transceiver is now the easiest to install), they are only $2,000 each.  I wouldn't be surprised of the SkyEcho is subsided to meet the requirement of CAP1391.

I doubt they make a huge amount on each one, especially if they have included recouping the R&D costs. To physically make something that isn’t too expensive, but to get to that point does.  If you need to recoup £1m in development, how many units would you need to sell to do that?

[grahambaker]

, It soooo frustrating 

So you’ve gone into a vegetarian restaurant, and halfway through your meal are complaining that it would taste so much better with meat in it, and you are now expecting the chef to do something about it.

[marioair]

So to follow your analogy, the government want us all to eat meat because it’s tasty. 
So they’ve released a “eat out to help out voucher” but you can use it at vegetarian restaurants

[Kurt37]

This is the worst thread I have ever seen. Instead of using ridiculous analogies, can we either revert to a technical and or economical solid discussion?

Kind regards,
Patrick

[marioair]

Quite!

My view is that we should lobby CAA to make ADSB certification cheaper so that the "cost case" is no longer a factor for PaW. It just becomes yet another format that PaW Tx/Rxs as part of its awesome capabilities

[Deker]

Quite!

My view is that we should lobby CAA to make ADSB certification cheaper so that the "cost case" is no longer a factor for PaW. It just becomes yet another format that PaW Tx/Rxs as part of its awesome capabilities

The problem is it is not up to the CAA to relax the certification process because it is an international standard, its a ESA / ICAO thing.
i.e Other countries won't allow or take the risk of a having a 'lower' regulated device flying through their airspace and causing all sorts of havoc.
By all means lobby the CAA..... but the less painful option maybe banging your head very hard against a wall ;-)

[marioair]

There’s more than one way to skin a cat.

Eg - a £2.5m fund for EC device manufacturers to apply for funding towards certification costs.

Of course if that cost is as it seems I have sympathy why PaW aren’t sinking cost into it.

The key is to make sure the platform can adapt if/when a consensus on format  does become more pervasive.

[Moffrestorer]

As I recall from reading CAP1391 many moons ago, for compliance in transmitting low power CAP1391 ADSB the device manufacture self declares that they are compliant (ie nil certification cost). However the amount and cost of testing during R&D to be able to get to the stage to be able to self declare would still amount to enormous cost anyway.