Author Topic: Flyer forum... sigh...  (Read 5439 times)

steveu

Flyer forum... sigh...
« on: August 10, 2020, 10:38:52 am »
I'll just drop this in here for discussion, and wonder out loud if the word "prejudice" springs to mind?

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/634509-beware-pilotaware.html

No need to deal with the accusations, I'm one of the converted... but rule no 1 of tabloid journalism, facts should never be allowed to spoil a good story.

Mig29fuk

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Re: Flyer forum... sigh...
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2020, 12:27:48 pm »
Steve
I think ignorance of the facts comes to mind.
When PAW started out 5 years ago there was virtually no EC about and certainly not a broad audience of users.
PAW was inspired by the need that light aircraft of all sorts needed some Conspicuity beyond the naked eye and at a sensible price.
The CAA/NATS had very little thoughts on it and only expensive solutions were available. Mode S with ES to give ADS-B.
PAW with a price point of £250 and Flarm support through OGN was and is a very workable EC aid for private and often lightweight aircraft.
SkyEcho 2 with ADS-B IN/OUT plus Flarm contacts is nearly £500 and its ADS-B capabilities are confined to ADS-B and FLARM if paid for.
Some of the comments made on PPrune spoke as though ATC had ADS-B capability as a tool.
They certainly don't at Bristol which is an Airport with 72,927 movement in 2019 and ‎8,699,529 Passengers.
Not insignificant for a Regional Airport. I believe we are still in single number figures for ADS-B as ATC Tool. Maybe only Manchester City Airport.
So...... PAW is rolling along nicely, its price is attainable to many Pilots and Owners and in my own practice gives great conspicuity with ADS-B, FLARM and PAW Users.
Not a bad awareness remit.

The Service Lobby argument stated that the RAF had ADS-B on a wide range of aircraft..... so why isn't it implemented or switched in a significant number of instances.
We are not at War so no excuse for not being an ADS-B emitter which is the often the case.

PPrune in some subjects is becoming a type of the new WOKE iniatitive in Aviation matters.

Regards
Gerry
« Last Edit: August 10, 2020, 12:33:03 pm by Mig29fuk »
G-MYUP
White Ox Mead Airstrip
Bath. England

exfirepro

Re: Flyer forum... sigh...
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2020, 01:10:32 pm »
Steve,

I echo Gerry’s comments above. My first thought on reading the PPRUNE thread was ‘(most of) these guys either don’t know what they are talking about, or are basing their obvious prejudice on the old ‘Explosion in a Maplin Shop’ digs, aimed at us by the ‘anti-paw’ lobby in the early days because they didn’t have any more reasoned argument’.

The phrase ‘Talking out of their ars3s’ springs to mind, but they are of course ‘entitled to their opinion’, - even when talking a load of Bollox.

Regards

Peter

steveu

Re: Flyer forum... sigh...
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2020, 11:06:42 pm »
It's very disappointing when you read all this BS trotted out by those with parrot fashion knowledge but no understanding.

I can't see myself ever being on PPRUNE or FLYER forums, as it reminds me so much as to why, despite having an aeronautical qualification, I don't work in the industry.

When I hear the transponder lectures from the entrenched, I ask them what situational awareness or anti collision information they get from the transponder, if there is no traffic service on offer. They shuffle sideways and start a stream of bovine excrement of Augean proportions, or to be blunt, they talk sh*te.

Given the current CAA policy on infringements, a fair few local pilots are questioning whether the transponder actually wants to be in the aircraft any more. If they don't need zone transits, it needs to be U/S for some reason or removed.

http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/intro/uk-infringements-policy.html

AFAIK, FLARM is not certified, it's just a big enough wall of wallets for the epaulette wearers to respect the force of numbers or be told to indulge in sex and travel.

Transponders score 0/10 for autonomous situational awareness, and ADS-B, where I live, mostly tells you about commercial air traffic in airspace you are not allowed in.

My ground station analyses and shows me what's going on, I built it partly because of our proximity to a gliding airfield, and FLARM does not show up on ADS-B only...

FLARM doesn't go very far, I've been checking for pings with my FLARM beacon.

However, sailplanes and PAW equipped aircraft might see me. Transponder, ADS-B, WGAF?



EricC

Re: Flyer forum... sigh...
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2020, 07:21:24 am »
How true.

neilmurg

Re: Flyer forum... sigh...
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2020, 11:33:43 pm »
I'll just drop this in here for discussion, and wonder out loud if the word "prejudice" springs to mind?
...
Thanks for the heads up

Keithvinning

Re: Flyer forum... sigh...
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2020, 07:40:32 pm »
Nil desperandum.

PilotAware has had a vocal minority (seems to be the same folk hiding behind an alias) since we started. The arguments have changed over time as we have become fully accepted by lots and lots of users. 3800+ units have been sold to date. Remember the explosion in a Maplins, used car salesman etc jibes. Let it go. The latest jibe has now morphed into you are not using my preferred colours for METARS and ignoring the fact that they are FREE. Perhaps we have frustrated someone's business plan?

We are proud to be the lowest possible cost unit and we innovate faster and more widely than others. Please believe me there is more to come from the PilotAware innovation team.

Don't get upset that others don't like what we are doing we don't anymore.

Thanks for your support.

Keith
   

neilmurg

Re: Flyer forum... sigh...
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2020, 07:50:53 pm »
To be fair, Chevron doesn't dislike only Pilotaware. He can remember when all this used to be fields, small boys, jumpers for goalposts..... we used to work 26 hours a day down 't pit, come home get murdered, have to do the washing up AND STILL went to work next day.
But you tell that to kids today and they call you a liar!

Keithvinning

Re: Flyer forum... sigh...
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2020, 09:47:55 pm »
I have no dispute with Chevron whoever they are. It's a free country and everyone is entitled to have a view, the principle of which I wholeheartedly support.

Keith

neilmurg

Re: Flyer forum... sigh...
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2020, 10:11:30 pm »
True, I support that. But if you chose the handle chevvron, shouldn't you spell it che>>ron?

[edit]to add, you're quite right exfirepro, I have a tendency towards over assertiveness. I shall chill[/edit]
« Last Edit: August 17, 2020, 10:13:34 pm by neilmurg »

Keithvinning

Re: Flyer forum... sigh...
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2020, 10:16:03 pm »
Nah we love you as you are :-)

Keith

Crash one

Re: Flyer forum... sigh...
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2020, 12:21:08 am »
Quote from: chevvron;10863014
I was referring only to the introduction of a different airfield colour state system compared to the one which already exists in the UK; the other features of Pilotaware are of no concern to me personally, however what should be of some concern is the amount of information fed to the pilot via Pilotaware; some pilots might concentrate on this and forget to look out of the window and thus not see an aircraft approaching which is not emitting any type of ellectronic conspicuity.

I am quite amused by this remark.
Implying that the fitting of a traffic display is dangerously detrimental to ones lookout.
What kind of bullkrap is this supposed to be?
I thought chevvron was some kind of air traffic controller, with a brain? And he can’t spell electronic!
​​​​​​​

steveu

Re: Flyer forum... sigh...
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2020, 09:36:24 am »
Quote from: chevvron;10863014
I was referring only to the introduction of a different airfield colour state system compared to the one which already exists in the UK; the other features of Pilotaware are of no concern to me personally, however what should be of some concern is the amount of information fed to the pilot via Pilotaware; some pilots might concentrate on this and forget to look out of the window and thus not see an aircraft approaching which is not emitting any type of ellectronic conspicuity.

I am quite amused by this remark.
Implying that the fitting of a traffic display is dangerously detrimental to ones lookout.

It's the prejudice around lack of knowledge of the product too...

There is no need to fit a traffic display if the audio is injected into the intercom. And the traffic display could be integrated into an EFB, with the CAA all telling us to use moving maps and avoid infringements. Or receive the phone call...

That then gives the traffic service all the time that some get a stiffie over and that is always mentioned in AAIB reports on MAC that "neither of the aircraft were receiving a traffic service at the time of the incident".

Has anyone ever tried giving a traffic service to a glider surrounded by 4 others in thermal? Is it possible? Why was FLARM invented, then?

However, spare some sympathy for the metaphorical firemen of the aviation industry. The steam era has ended, and they either move on or move out.

Added to which the access to affordable aviation via microlights, hang gliders and paragliders has changed things, with those of us previously regarded as unsuitable oiks proving that we can all fly, and that there is no such thing as a class or group of anointed ones.


grahambaker

Re: Flyer forum... sigh...
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2020, 11:25:40 am »
There is one big difference though between a stiffie provoking Traffic Service and injecting audio alerts into the intercom, and that is that the TS provider will not step on his own transmissions. Normally you have two options when injecting audio - mute or meld. Either gives a non-100% solution.

I’m not against audio alert injection, it’s better than nothing, but it just underlines that nothing is 100% infallible. FTAOD I use ‘mute’, as I don’t want to lose an ATC instruction or message.

neilmurg

Re: Flyer forum... sigh...
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2020, 11:36:26 am »
this thread has jumped back to life but the original comments are now weeks old
« Last Edit: September 14, 2020, 01:06:42 pm by neilmurg »