Torn between PAW and SkyEcho

[Merlin29]

Hello. I’m seriously torn between buying PAW or SkyEcho2. I fly a flexwing Microlight without a transponder and  I like the simplicity of both devices. As far as I can make out PAW would give me more traffic information than SkyEcho. However, skyecho transmits ADSB and so to a certain extent is future proofed from any future mandating of EC devices. From what I have read with PAW I will be able to see more traffic, with SkyEcho 2 then I will be seen more. I’d also like a simple installation. I assume the Rosetta will have good reception/transmission using the built in antenna if I position by or on the front strut. SkyEcho seems to be reliable as a stand alone unit. I posted on the Flyer Forum and I feel the community are pushing me towards ADSB transmission devices I don’t want to spend £250 on PAW to find out in 2 years that ADSB will be mandated. I also don’t want to buy a transponder nor both devices!

Really struggling to make a decision. Does PAW have the future capability to transmit ADSB?

I think both are great products but the uncertainty of future requirements is putting me off buying either!

[exfirepro]

Hi Merlin,

I read your thread over on the Flyer Forum earlier today. You have presumably realised already that this question has a history of polarising opinion between the PilotAware and SkyEcho camps, which in earlier FF threads has led very close to blows and has led several posters to receive formal warnings. 

The short answer to your question is that unless or until the CAA decides to mandate ADSB (and make everything else illegal - which is highly unlikely) there can be NO ‘easy answer’...

Yes, SkyEcho transmits ADSB, which is what the CAA would like to see all GA aircraft doing because (in their opinion) it is a neater and tidier Solution.

PilotAware, on the other hand, doesn’t, and due to the extremely high cost of ‘1090MHz transmit’ development and certification - is unlikely to go down this route.

PilotAware was however designed to provide a cheaper ‘alternative aircraft position indicator’ (before the CAA got round to making their ADSB recommendation) and has since been developed and expanded to be capable of receiving and warning you about a far broader range of other aircraft transmission types - in addition to its own ‘Plane to Plane’ P3i.

The bottom line - if you want maximum warning of other aircraft systems and also want to transmit ADSB - is either PilotAware + a linked Transponder, or PilotAware + SkyEcho. There is no ‘One-Stop’ solution.

Sorry, neither I nor anyone else can make the decision for you, all we can do is clarify the options and outline their respective benefits. Personally, I have opted for PilotAware + Transponder, which maximises incoming warnings whilst also maximising visibility to (current) ATC and facilitating entry / transit through Transponder Mandatory Zones and I also run a FLARM transceiver so I can be ‘seen’ by gliders and can see them directly outside the ever expanding OGN-R coverage area.

Hope this helps clarify the situation.

Best Regards

Peter

[Merlin29]

Many thanks Peter. I’ve also just read the ‘sticky’ post about why PAW won’t be investing in ADS-B out. Makes sense! I also read your post about installation in a GT450. Do you have any photos?

Many thanks.

[exfirepro]

Hi Merlin,

No photos to hand at present, but yours is the second request I have received in 2 days, so I’ll try to get down to the airfield and take some in the next few days.

Regards

Peter

[Mig29fuk]

Merlin Hi from SW England

My answer wont help with your succinct question....PAW or SE2 but gives another set of thinking.
I operate a single seat, non electric old airplane so power consumption for me is paramount with only a 7AH LIfePO4 Battery.
I have used PAW for sometime and find it very useful but also felt slightly concerned that I had no Transponder ES or ADS-B signature.
The decison I made was to go with SE2 using ADS-B OUT mode only as well as the rest covered by PAW.
Obviously the SE2 is transmitting blind from my prospective but will give ADS-B warning to others.
I check performance on FR24 post flight and from that feel confident that others would have been aware of me.
Yes it would be neater to have ADS-B OUT from PAW but that is a big mountain to climb for the Developers.
In monetary terms the PAW Classic I have cost around £150 including RPi3 and the SkyEcho 2 was at the introduction price of £340. Less than £500 in total.
My only other option would have been TRIG TPx with ES, probably £2000 plus additional power consumption.
I dont fly in airspace that has mandatory TPx so TRIG functionality would be a waste of the facility.
Not sure this helps but it works for me.
Kind Regards
Gerry

[Merlin29]

Many thanks Peter. I’ve also just read the ‘sticky’ post about why PAW won’t be investing in ADS-B out. Makes sense! I also read your post about installation in a GT450. Do you have any photos?

Many thanks.

Thanks. Although the other request was probably from me. I PM’d you before I changed my display name so it matched that on the Flyer Forum - so it was clear I’m the same person!

[Merlin29]

In monetary terms the PAW Classic I have cost around £150 including RPi3 and the SkyEcho 2 was at the introduction price of £340. Less than £500 in total.

Sounds like a bargain. I will start with PAW and go from there. Such as shame there is not one system but at least I understand the reasons why. It’s taken me a lot of reading and good people on these forums to fully understand the situation. Not sure that is ever going to help the uptake of EC devices!

[exfirepro]

Thanks. Although the other request was probably from me. I PM’d you before I changed my display name so it matched that on the Flyer Forum - so it was clear I’m the same person!

Ah, that explains that one - I did wonder as I don’t usually get that many requests.

Regards

Peter

[grahambaker]

I may be unpopular for saying this here, but if you can only afford one device, then your priority should be to -make yourself as conspicuous as possible to the greatest number of people- whilst complying with the approved standard, so you should buy the SkyEcho.

FTAOD I think the PAW devices are great, and I have a Rosetta (and previously a Classic), but my first priority was to get ADSB-out capability, which I did in my aircraft via a Mode S-ES transponder over eight years ago.

[Admin]

Hi Graham, et al
No that will make you very unpopular!
(Just kiddng)

But seriously, how conspicuous do you think it would be, what distance ?
The reason I ask, we have the facts from the groundstation data,
but not publicising, as it raises a $h!t storm of protest
I have also confirmed our findings off the record with someone at NATS, who is in agreement

So I am interested in the perception versus the reality ?

I did show performance track data on the flyer forum of PilotAware versus cap1392 and adsb, but did not pursue for the reasons outlined above

I think the issue is as follows
The main backers of cap1391 have convinced the community that the cap1391 devices available today are simply a type of Transponder (lite)
This is not the case, and nobody with the real performance data seems to want to come forward

Thx
Lee

[Mig29fuk]

Graham Hi.
You wont be unpopular as thats a valid opinion.
Transponders with Extended Squitter are nice to have. Expensive though. BTW, what is supplying your GPS location for TPx?
As I've said earlier. I have SE2 just for ADS-B OUT. PAW is giving me Flarm, ADS-B IN, some Mode C and S indications and all for around £200.
Less than a set of Plugs in my very old Continental Engine!
True that SE2 with SkyDemon and FLARM subscription gives you a lot but it misses those who only have PAW presence.
Thats my take on it and I'm happy.....well most of the time.
Regards
Gerry

[grahambaker]

TW, what is supplying your GPS location for TPx?

A GNS430W. At the time, at my request my avionics installer was happy to connect it to my Trig TT31 (SIL=0) and I was happy to argue the case, in court if necessary, that I was enhancing flight safety, not compromising it, by doing so even though it wasn't 'approved'. Now of course all the regulatory requirements are in place for me to transmit at a higher SIL, which I do.

PAW is a great complement as a receiver device, as it detects ADS-B and just about everything else.

[exfirepro]

Merlin,

Photos as promised.

This set on the black background are of my own installation, with internal 1090MHz antenna (the shorter one) and an external P3i 869.5MHz antenna mounted under the pod for testing (which is why you can't see the longer one).

Second set in next post.

Peter

[exfirepro]

This second set are from a recent fit in another flexwing (also a GT450) for comparison - in this case fitted slightly higher up in the pod (nearer the back of the dash) than mine and on a smaller pad of (white) stick-on Velcro. (I thought the pics would be clearer against the yellow pod but didn't reckon on the white Velcro  ). The shorter 1090MHz antenna has obviously been knocked out of the vertical, but the photos clearly show the alternative 'higher' fitting position.

Both options are working fine.

Regards

Peter

[Merlin29]

Thank you so much for the photos. Makes it really clear. Very neat solutions. As you've created a permanent installation, did you put PAW on its own circuit with a on/off switch (so you set to off on engine start to avoid any power fluctuations).

I'll update all with how I get on!

Many thanks again!