Author Topic: A really weird one, PAW grabbed traffic and held it.  (Read 18994 times)

Admin

Re: A really weird one, PAW grabbed traffic and held it.
« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2019, 12:00:12 pm »
Hi Peter
(and others interested)
Quote
As in the other cases above, when the track is run through Aircrew, these aircraft don't appear, so I would guess there is something in the interface with SD that is causing this.

Actually this data is EXACTLY the same data that is streamed to SD, except it contains some additional debug messages.
SD only gets the $GP (GPS Data) and $PF (Flarm Dataport) messages

Are the screenshots from the live reception of the data during flight, or a replay ?

So based upon the track file provided, can you tell me at what point in the flight I should take a look at where traffic is latched ?

Thx
Lee
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 12:03:16 pm by Admin »

Admin

Re: A really weird one, PAW grabbed traffic and held it.
« Reply #46 on: September 17, 2019, 12:32:58 pm »
@PeterG
I think I see what is happening here

The screengrabs from SD are not LIVE traffic they are REPLAYED traffic.
There is a long standing issue with replay tracks containing bearingless targets, this is why we recommend the use of aircrew.

With bearingless targets there is only an X co-ordinate provided, and the Y is omitted, but during replay this gets replaced with a 0.

Aircrew handles this better, that is why you do not see this on the screen, in fact if you scrub to the point where N95GT was seen, this is reported as a bearingless warning in Aircrew

So can I ask has anybody got a definitive track file where a 'latched' aircraft was seen live ?
if aircrew sees this same latched aircraft, that is a definite BUG in PilotAware, if not it would be a bug in SD, but the original traffic must have been seen live.

I guess I have a TODO to either remove the traffic playback and only recommend aircrew, or fix it to handle bearingless targets

Thx
Lee
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 12:35:44 pm by Admin »

Vic

Re: A really weird one, PAW grabbed traffic and held it.
« Reply #47 on: September 17, 2019, 06:07:07 pm »
Hi Lee

From my first post in this thread, the image presented was a screenshot definately taken in flight. The .trk file, when download was attempted, was missing. I notice another contributor with similar experiences has also reported that the relevant Track file was missing.

Could this in any way be a contributory factor?

Admin

Re: A really weird one, PAW grabbed traffic and held it.
« Reply #48 on: September 17, 2019, 08:37:40 pm »
@vic
I see your logic, but cannot think why that could be the case, but will give it some thought
Thx
Lee

Admin

Re: A really weird one, PAW grabbed traffic and held it.
« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2019, 09:56:43 am »
Hi All

I have emailed everyone directly for their track files who have reported seeing this, this includes

AdrianW
HarryS
PeterG
jollyrog

I am looking for a track file where the 'latched traffic' was seen IN-FLIGHT in SkyDemon
Observing in a replay of PilotAware, is not representative of the issue, because bearingless traffic will incorrectly display as latched traffic
Aircrew will display correctly, as this is using the same GPS positioned traffic which SkyDemon will display

I am able to replay (with my own replay version) through SkyDemon to see if the latched traffic does indeed display, but I need the tracks to work from.

Thx
Lee

Admin

Re: A really weird one, PAW grabbed traffic and held it.
« Reply #50 on: September 18, 2019, 09:58:32 am »
My friend went to collect the track log and found ( after initially sending me the return .TRK) that only that file was available, not the outbound. He's not 100% certain that he didn't delete it (is there a confirmation?) in one of his attempts to collect  it though. .  :-\
there is no confirmation when you press delete.
Thx
Lee

James Rose

Re: A really weird one, PAW grabbed traffic and held it.
« Reply #51 on: September 19, 2019, 04:00:29 pm »

Attached is the dropbox link.

As in the other cases above, when the track is run through Aircrew, these aircraft don't appear, so I would guess there is something in the interface with SD that is causing this.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7bxoasdpgkbulsj/AADyKTJ6SkAecyre2YoWBkofa?dl=0

The reason why you don't see N95GT or F-GYKL on the Aircrew playback is because they are bearingless targets. You can see G-JFRV and G-EUXD on aircrew playback. I'm not sure why SkyDemon is showing bearingless targets as aircraft?

If you look at the track file if the 3rd field after the $PFLAA is empty then it means its bearingless
Quote
$PFLAA,1,4500,,-466,1,AD32F6!N95GT,,,,0.0,8*7C     <-- bearingless
$PFLAA,2,3000,,-452,1,39614B!F-GYKL,,,,0.0,8*56     <-- bearingless
$PFLAA,3,164,190,14,1,404A43!G-JFRV,100,-0.5,25,0.0,8*69     <-- gps position
$PFLAA,0,-61624,493,9974,1,400AFC!G-EUXD,352,0.0,243,0.0,9*5F     <-- gps position
(2019-08-24_13-25.trk)





« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 04:03:00 pm by James Rose »

Admin

Re: A really weird one, PAW grabbed traffic and held it.
« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2019, 05:00:53 pm »
The reason why you don't see N95GT or F-GYKL on the Aircrew playback is because they are bearingless targets. You can see G-JFRV and G-EUXD on aircrew playback. I'm not sure why SkyDemon is showing bearingless targets as aircraft?

Its a bug in the replay from PilotAware -> SD
the Y component is passed as '0', instead of empty
I think I explained this earlier, its not an issue in SD, and it is not seen in live traffic
this is simply a replay bug.

Thx
Lee
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 05:02:25 pm by Admin »

GeoffreyC

Re: A really weird one, PAW grabbed traffic and held it.
« Reply #53 on: September 20, 2019, 11:25:30 am »
The reason why you don't see N95GT or F-GYKL on the Aircrew playback is because they are bearingless targets. You can see G-JFRV and G-EUXD on aircrew playback. I'm not sure why SkyDemon is showing bearingless targets as aircraft?

Its a bug in the replay from PilotAware -> SD
the Y component is passed as '0', instead of empty
I think I explained this earlier, its not an issue in SD, and it is not seen in live traffic
this is simply a replay bug.

Thx
Lee
So explains the latched traffic (including a ground station) I experienced in replay of a flight to Calais.

Any ideas about the latched traffic I experienced live on Sunday (screen shots posted separately).  Unfortunately no track file appeared to have been created so I guess difficult to investigate it

Geoffrey

AndyM

Re: A really weird one, PAW grabbed traffic and held it.
« Reply #54 on: September 20, 2019, 12:31:30 pm »
I had a similar thing happen yesterday, strangely enough while flying in a similar area. Pilot Aware was showing a target a couple of miles ahead on the same track and as I changed course, so did the target. Eventually it disappeared. I regularly receive warnings of traffic close by, either above, or below, and rarely see anything. I have switched off the 3D mode and configured everything to the shortest range possible but I have to admit, I  am also losing faith in the equipment. I really appreciate the efforts of everyone involved in its' development but so far I am yet to be convinced! I sent my transponder back to Trig so I could have the software updated to allow me to take advantage of ADSB which has now caused me a problem with the CAA, but that's another story!!

GeoffreyC

Re: A really weird one, PAW grabbed traffic and held it.
« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2019, 01:04:31 pm »
There's definitely a pattern of this issue because it happened to me today from Lee on Solent back to Sandy.   In the circuit I noticed that GAWPW was above and behind me, but ‘stuck’ a constant distance behind, and apparently flying backwards!
En route realised that there was GMISJ, GKEVH and GCECL also stuck.  GCECL was one of our group and according to my pilot aware he was flying through Southampton’s airspace at 0mph but 4000’ up.

GCECL eventually disappeared but I gained GCKDE.

Some screen shots and traffic captures below.  Interestingly GCIJO and GCIGG are both appearing as zero km away, they were flying with me but not that closely!  GCECL who was also with us is reported as 52km away.

When I finished the flight I turned off paw then turned it on again to download the track file; but found that nothing had been saved from this flight.  Prior two flights today both logged ok.

Geoffrey

Ps: unable to upload the photos as they were too big, and after I’d shrunk them I found that the forum wouldn’t allow .jpeg uploads, only .jpg.
Here they are therefore in Dropbox https://www.dropbox.com/sh/rdnh4tuol2c8rny/AABF7_YMw8MHrZeq9UxVUDoma?dl=0
I've been looking at flightradar 24 for some of the registrations that appeared live on Skydemon latched to my flight.

GAWPW flew from Lee on Solent to Jersey, and I remembered their radio calls as I was getting ready at Lee on Solent
GMISJ flew along the South coast on the Sunday afternoon,  might have landed at Lee (there's a break in flight in PAW), but Skydemon shows it latched to me near Blackbushe
GCIJO, GCECL and GCIGG all flew back with me from Lee to Sandy,  but appear on PAW traffic logs as 0km from me

So pattern on all of them were that I was near to them as I left Lee but they got 'stuck' latched to my track as I headed North.

I will go back and see if there is a trace file on my plane, but when I looked after landing there didn't appear to be.

Geoffrey

PaulSS

Re: A really weird one, PAW grabbed traffic and held it.
« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2019, 01:42:00 pm »
I'd love to find out who makes the transponders those aircraft are carrying. It would interesting if they were all the same manufacturer.

exfirepro

Re: A really weird one, PAW grabbed traffic and held it.
« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2019, 02:00:19 pm »
I regularly receive warnings of traffic close by, either above, or below, and rarely see anything. I have switched off the 3D mode and configured everything to the shortest range possible but I have to admit, I  am also losing faith in the equipment. I really appreciate the efforts of everyone involved in its' development but so far I am yet to be convinced!

Hi Andy,

What type of warnings are you talking about here - on-screen or audio?

As a long term PilotAware Tester and co-developer of the original detection and trigger levels for ‘Pure’ Mode-S and Mode-C, I can assure you that the system generally works extremely effectively, provided the unit is correctly installed (with antennas having a good view of the surrounding sky) and filters are set appropriately in both PilotAware and the associated display system.

For known position targets (P3i, ADSB or FLARM / Mode-S/3D via OGN-R Uplink) received Aircraft will be visible on screen within the limits set in your Nav System /EFB. You should note that the known position traffic filters in PilotAware are designed for use only with EFBs which don’t have their own horizontal or vertical filters. For this type of traffic, you need to leave the filters in PilotAware ‘Wide Open’ and use the filters in your Nav System to determine what Traffic you see / hear, though I would urge you to get used to the system(s) with fairly wide open filters, then restrict reported traffic later when you are comfortable with the system performance.

For Bearingless (Pure Mode-C or Mode-S) Traffic, you need to set the Mode-CS Range in PilotAware. For general use, I recommend Short or Medium Range. If you set this Range too tight, you may not in fact get warnings at all until it too late. Bearingless Target display is BTW ‘Off’ by default in Sky Demon.

The one exception to this is when receiving Bearingless Mode-S alerts from Commercial Traffic using high-power Mode-S transponders (when you are outside the range of OGN-R Ground Stations). Because these signals are so strong, they trigger bearingless alert warnings when the aircraft can be still well outside visual range. Unfortunately, there is very little we can do about this, though you will fairly quickly recognise the unique ‘signature’ which results in an extremely rapid progress from ‘Green to Amber to Red’ or even straight to ‘Red’ with no preliminary warning. The same applies to the associated ‘Traffic Notice / Traffic Alert / Traffic Danger’ audio alerts. I suspect this may be what you are experiencing.

Please let me know if this helps.

Best Regards

Peter
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 10:24:48 am by exfirepro »

AndyM

Re: A really weird one, PAW grabbed traffic and held it.
« Reply #58 on: September 20, 2019, 02:28:30 pm »
Hi Peter - thank you for your comprehensive reply. I do fly in the vicinity of Stansted Airport quite a lot so I am probably picking up some strong Bearing-less Mode-S alerts from Commercial Traffic like you have mentioned. Bearingless Target display in Sky Demon is set to ON but I probably could do with a bit of 'education' to check that everything else is configured correctly. 

Admin

Re: A really weird one, PAW grabbed traffic and held it.
« Reply #59 on: September 20, 2019, 02:39:29 pm »
I had a similar thing happen yesterday, strangely enough while flying in a similar area. Pilot Aware was showing a target a couple of miles ahead on the same track and as I changed course, so did the target. Eventually it disappeared. I regularly receive warnings of traffic close by, either above, or below, and rarely see anything. I have switched off the 3D mode and configured everything to the shortest range possible but I have to admit, I  am also losing faith in the equipment. I really appreciate the efforts of everyone involved in its' development but so far I am yet to be convinced! I sent my transponder back to Trig so I could have the software updated to allow me to take advantage of ADSB which has now caused me a problem with the CAA, but that's another story!!

Hi Andy
Please provide a track file and description of where in the flight to look, and we will investigate.

>>I regularly receive warnings of traffic close by, either above, or below, and rarely see anything
Bearingless or positioned ?
just because you don't see it, doesnt mean it isnt there  :-[


Thx
Lee