Author Topic: Long Marston Test 17 October  (Read 39341 times)

falcoguy

Re: Long Marston Test 17 October
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2015, 09:03:26 am »
We have had similar experiences with performance off the ARF with P3i.  For example

Flight test 1
Lancair and Falco - never even got off the ground because units wouldn't see each other on the ground let alone in the air. Both are 'composite' aircraft.  We did however take the unit out of the Lancair, and then managed a successful ground test of 100m or so.  Thought great and reinstalled unit in plane.  Immediately no receive for either unit.  Unit in Lancair on windshield.  Later tested the units on ground against another ground based unit and they all worked.  We got around 2 km range upstairs window to upstairs window. So No air to air that day!  Decided we need simpler aircraft.

Flight test 2
Eurostar to ground station
1+km range.  Lost in circuit at Fenland when aircraft turned away from unit.  Not able to establish an air to air test. Unit on rear parcel shelf (in open view).

Flight test 3
Able to establish an air test.  Results similar or marginally worse to long marston test.

We have established using the master and slave results that in an ideal environment - 6m range within a kitchen line of sight we can get -20/21 dBm, with all units on a good day.  However we have also seen -30dBm in exactly the same locations on another day.  Power supply variations appear to make a difference.  We also established that in our case replacing the pigtail with the onboard SMA connector (might have) improved reception or transmission and improved our figures by 1 or 2 dBm.  But its difficult to say because of the variation in figures received from the testing regime.  We also tried a simple dipole aerial at 2 legs of 81mm (seemed to give best result).  This also might have improved the figures by maybe 1- 2 dBm.  We have also tried a monopole aerial again 81mm long with 165mm ground plane - similar.

The bottom line is that from our tests the aerial and sma connectors have made only very small gains.

We still don't know why we couldn't get the PAW to work on P3i in our complex aeroplanes we are now concentrating on simple planes for further testing!  However we have also established that a body (probably alive or dead) in the cockpit will mask the signal received (or transmitted) in our case this was a TOTAL wipe out.  Tests again in the kitchen indicate that a hand in front of the aerial will reduce sensitivity by 10 or 15dBm.  Standing in front of the aerial has a similar effect. This probably illustrates the point.  Lee amongst others has already stated this. 

So aerial placement will be vital as well as the largest transmitting power possible on P3i.  Lets be honest we have measured 90 mW from our ARF - which is less than 20dBm.  If a hand near the aerial can reduce the received signal by 10 or 15 dBm then we are very sensitive to any variation or masking of the signal transmitted or received by anything, and everything. This includes, metal instrument panel, engine, metal fuel tanks, persons in cockpit etc.

The ADSB works brilliantly - because the transmit power of ADSB is far greater.  We have been able to watch an aircraft on finals into Fenland from a ground level PAW around 15nm away!  This again proves the point - to make the system as good, and as reliable as possible we need:

the largest transmit power available to us -
Probably external aerials properly designed, in order to reduce masking as much as possible. (Powerflarm appears to use two monopole aerials mounted on the aircraft underside)

I hope my comments are considered helpful, we are hoping to do more air to air testing next weekend with the P3i and ARF.

Regards

Dave

Moffrestorer

Re: Long Marston Test 17 October
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2015, 12:41:43 pm »
Very interesting observations Dave regarding absorption or fades caused by human body. Could explain why the results appear to depend on direction flown etc. It sounds as though to achieve more power a simple power amplifier might be needed on the P3i ARF transmit side to more closely achieve the 500mw into the antenna. I don't know if anything is likely to be available off the shelf or whether the ARF can be modified easily to connect the output through such an amp set-up. I assume with greater power output from the PAW, there shouldn't be any need to modify the ARF Rx side.

JCurtis

Re: Long Marston Test 17 October
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2015, 12:57:47 pm »
Very interesting observations Dave regarding absorption or fades caused by human body. Could explain why the results appear to depend on direction flown etc. It sounds as though to achieve more power a simple power amplifier might be needed on the P3i ARF transmit side to more closely achieve the 500mw into the antenna. I don't know if anything is likely to be available off the shelf or whether the ARF can be modified easily to connect the output through such an amp set-up. I assume with greater power output from the PAW, there shouldn't be any need to modify the ARF Rx side.

The ARF is a packet radio IC and a signal booster as a package, no margin there to boost it again without a redesign and a move to a different IC. Alternatives modules exist, with 500mW power and fully certified from other suppliers. Downside is they won't talk to the existing ARFs.
Designer and maker of charge4.harkwood.co.uk, smart universal USB chargers designed for aviation.  USB Type-A and USB-C power without the RF interference. Approved for EASA installs under CS-STAN too.

Moffrestorer

Re: Long Marston Test 17 October
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2015, 01:03:51 pm »
Hi Jeremy,

Just quickly looked at ARF web page. Apparently it can be used with the XRF (as a preamp?). It states that using XRF at each end a range of 10s of km is possible. The bonus is that the units talk to each other.

Regards,

Chris

JCurtis

Re: Long Marston Test 17 October
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2015, 01:50:47 pm »
Hi Jeremy,

Just quickly looked at ARF web page. Apparently it can be used with the XRF (as a preamp?). It states that using XRF at each end a range of 10s of km is possible. The bonus is that the units talk to each other.

Regards,

Chris

There are two modules from WirelessThings, the XRF and ARF.  If you look at the XRF it has a small daughter board on it - that they call the SRF module.

The SRF module is a Ti packet radio chip with an embedded micro controller, that WirelessThings have written software for to give it an easy to use AT command based serial interface. 

The XRF is this SRF module mounted onto carrier to give it the XBee form factor you see.
The ARF is the same SRF radio module combined with a Ti PowerAmp to boost the radio signal (and also increase the sensitivity for reception) again presented in the XBee form factor.  The ARF is the highest power radio WirelessThings currently make.

You might be able to get 10k+ with directional high gain antenna on a point to point link, with all the power going to where you need it.  You can go a long way with a directional antenna with very little power, I've seen Bluetooth run nearly a mile using, in effect, a glorified Pringles tube.
What we need good omnidirectional broadcast transmission.

So, yes, the ARF could loosely be described as an XRF with an amplifier on it.

Edit: Reading the description on the website, "When used with an XRF the gain overall is around 10db" I think this means the ARF has a signal strength of +10dB over that of the ARF, as it continues to say "using an ARF at both ends will give the greatest range (expected to be 10's Km's)".  That 10's of KM's I would expect to see with directional antenna.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2015, 02:19:36 pm by JCurtis »
Designer and maker of charge4.harkwood.co.uk, smart universal USB chargers designed for aviation.  USB Type-A and USB-C power without the RF interference. Approved for EASA installs under CS-STAN too.

Paul_Sengupta

Re: Long Marston Test 17 October
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2015, 03:59:08 pm »
Well, if my reading Sky Demon is correct, I was picking up CaptChaos from about 9nm away when both aircraft were heading directly towards each other. Unfortunately he couldn't see me until we were very close indeed!

So there's some sort of variation here.

Moffrestorer

Re: Long Marston Test 17 October
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2015, 04:38:19 pm »
Hi Jeremy,

Thanks for the explanation. I took the web-site description to indicate an XRF at both ends of the ARF! I now realise they meant an ARF at both ends of the radio link.

Whilst I was a Satcomms engineer in years gone by, I'm now extremely rusty..

Nowhere in WT web-description does it seem to quote an output power for the ARF. Is there any mileage in my suggestion that the transmit and receive side could be separated out and an external RF power amp be used to boost the eirp?

Regards,

Chris

JCurtis

Re: Long Marston Test 17 October
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2015, 05:18:30 pm »
Hi Jeremy,

Thanks for the explanation. I took the web-site description to indicate an XRF at both ends of the ARF! I now realise they meant an ARF at both ends of the radio link.

Whilst I was a Satcomms engineer in years gone by, I'm now extremely rusty..

Nowhere in WT web-description does it seem to quote an output power for the ARF. Is there any mileage in my suggestion that the transmit and receive side could be separated out and an external RF power amp be used to boost the eirp?

Regards,

Chris
I remember calculating geostationary satellite wobble for a tracking project, a good few years ago now, to always keep a dish pointed correctly.  That was fun...

The recommended power from an ARF is +18dB according to TI who make the chipset, it's pushed to +20dB which is the maximum recommended limit for the chipset.  The CC1190 is a combined TX and RX booster, so it also lifts the RX sensitivity too - it's controlled via a signal line from the CC1110 to flip states.

There is no way to split them out, the ARF is an integrated package based on the TI reference design. 

You could get WT to design a new ARF, based on a similar chipset that has a potential higher power.  TI state it would need shielding to prevent harmonics leaking out everywhere and would need some work to get right and stay within the legal limits.

For more power it's either a WT redesign, with some assurances over the limits and getting things measured and profiled (i.e. legal in terms of transmission, harmonics etc.), that has the benefit of being backwards compatible. 

The other option is use a replacement, fully certified, module from one of the big players, downside doesn't talk to the ARF.  Price wise there would probably be about a £10 to £15 hike in the price of the packet radio element of PAW to get to 500mW with support and backup from the manufacturer.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2015, 06:24:10 pm by JCurtis »
Designer and maker of charge4.harkwood.co.uk, smart universal USB chargers designed for aviation.  USB Type-A and USB-C power without the RF interference. Approved for EASA installs under CS-STAN too.

captchaos

Re: Long Marston Test 17 October
« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2015, 05:31:58 pm »
Well, if my reading Sky Demon is correct, I was picking up CaptChaos from about 9nm away when both aircraft were heading directly towards each other. Unfortunately he couldn't see me until we were very close indeed!

So there's some sort of variation here.

Paul, depends on SD settings - the trend line shows either time or distance - 2,5,10 for each so if you were on distance and I think you said second mark, that equates to 5 NM.

the_top_pilot

Re: Long Marston Test 17 October
« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2015, 05:56:36 pm »
I won't declare who I picked up until he agrees I disclose his identity. This afternoon from inside an aircraft on the ground at Sywell EGBK I picked up a PAW with solid reception with him around 8nm. My kit was inside an Aluminium Aircraft with the aerials on a table near the window.

Steve

Richard W

Re: Long Marston Test 17 October
« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2015, 07:55:33 pm »
And I now declare my identity :) By arrangement, I was hunting for a ground station to the north of Wellingborough.  I could only detect it when directly overhead at 2000', the range being no more than a few hundred yards.  He received only 6 ARF messages from me, and I received only 12 from him, during maybe 10 minutes.  However, at the same time, also by arrangement, the_top_pilot was receiving me solidly from Sywell, about 4 nm away!  My unit was on the coaming of a Skyranger, with a good view of the horizon.  As the_top_pilot said, he went on the track the rest of my flight, at up to 8nm away.

There do appear to be serious problems with the ARF, especially RX sensitivity and repeatability.  I suspect that we will have to change to a better specified and supported unit before reliability can be achieved.  I note the incompatibility issues, but I am prepared to shell out the equivalent of an hour's flying for a replacement, if that is what is needed.  The worry is that there are so many units out there already, and people queuing up to join in.  Sorry to be so negative, but I feel I have to voice my concerns.

Paul_Sengupta

Re: Long Marston Test 17 October
« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2015, 10:52:12 pm »
In theory, everyone who has built one so far is an experimentalist...so swapping RF modules at this stage may be par for the course.

falcoguy

Re: Long Marston Test 17 October
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2015, 08:36:19 am »
OK I've been doing some research following our experiments

In for a penny in for a pound!

Because the system is similar to flarm, and works on the similar frequency I thought I'd look up flarm and powerflarm in google.  I will try to keep my findings short, however:

Powerflarm has more power output than flarm to increase range.
Powerflarm personal results seem to indicate 2 - 8km range. Powerflarm claims the order of 5-8miles range - and flarm claim this is enough for collision warning.
Powerflarm has two aerial connections possible - to avoid blanking spots in the aeroplane.  The second aerial requires a second licence fee!
At least in the states (different frequency) range was very poor until a band filter was added on the board.  Don't know about Europe.
There is a specialist dipole aerial for flarm (PA1) its expensive - £44 claimed to increase the range, especially if both parties use it.

There is published info how to test your (aerial) installation using another flarm and to draw up a 360 degree range or black spot graph for the plane.  Doing this and moving the aerial a small amount can often increase range dramatically, even with a small change.  We could undertake this ground installation testing too.

Powerflarm appears to be tending to fixed aerial(s) - and there is EASA paperwork to do this on most GA aircraft.

There are suggestions on the net that the glareshield of a GA aircraft is the worst place to locate the aerial! because the signal can be blanked by instrument panel, engine, and occupant(s) of the cabin.  There is some suggestion that two aerials are good - say one on the fin and one on the underside?

The bottom line seems to be - get the most power, provide bandwidth filtering, allow for two aerials to give the best chance to avoid blanking, plan your aerial locations carefully and test for 360 degree transmission to get the best result possible - of course Flarm is a commercial product.

Finally;  hope that your conflicting traffic has done the same to enable the best range AND DONT FORGET TO LOOK OUT - DONT RELY ON THE ANTi COLLISION SOFTWARE.

Looks like as a community we have a lot of work to do to raise the bar (as they say)

I think a lot of problems with seen and being seen are down to aerial blanking - obviously more power will equal a bit more range.

Dave 

 

thearb

  • Guest
Re: Long Marston Test 17 October
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2015, 09:24:02 am »
was up for about 3 hours yesterday in the Midlands, routing down from Husbands Bosworth to Shotteswell I picked up a converging contact in my blind spot, from my right at about 45 degrees angle about 10 miles out, twin seneca OXF14, 200 ft below. Eventually he crossed in front of me about a mile ahead, similar height just as I was approaching Shotteswell. Got on the ground and asked my arranged meet if he saw the twin, 'oh yeah, crossed right in front of you'. At no point did I ever catch sight of him.

The Westmorland Flyer

Re: Long Marston Test 17 October
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2015, 10:11:01 am »
My apologies for this lengthy post but I think it is worth trying to explain why we are seeing such wildly different results and then discuss the options that might be available. This is a complex subject, not well understood outside the realms of RF engineers and radio amateurs. There is, however, perfectly good science behind it and I am sorry to say that I am completely unsurprised by the results that we are now experiencing. OK... here goes... deep breath!

Falcoguy's observations are spot on and many of the points have been raised in this forum before. Antenna system gain (loss) and position/shielding are the fundamental issue here and that is exactly the reason why Flarm has had to go to two antennas, preferably externally mounted.

The sums go something like this:

For every doubling of distance the free-space signal loss is about 6dB (i.e. the power drops by a factor of four. This is the inverse square law in action. So, if we start with one unit of energy at 1km, it is down to 0.25 units at 2km, 0.06 units at 4km, 0.015 units at 8km and so on. That's the reduction in signal strength due to distance. It is immutable. We can do nothing about it.

Now lets look at antennas:

The basic 1/4 (quarter)wave antenna is a useful starting point. They are commonplace - our aircraft's VHF antennas are one example. They work well because they are operating against an "infinite" ground plane - the aircraft's fuselage. Those with composite aircraft will have metal plates or aluminium foil strips to achieve a similar effect. The whip antenna that comes with the ARF looks to me like a 3/4-wave device, end fed. This theoretically gives around 3db gain over a 1/4 wave antenna but it has no effective ground plane to work against, so it is probably losing all that apparent gain, perhaps even more. Simply by fixing the ground plane problem we would get at least 3dB antenna gain - the equivalent of about a 50% increase in range. Another way of doing this is to make a dipole antenna. A dipole will always significantly outperform an end fed antenna with a poor ground plane. There are other options too. The antenna can make quite a difference to range.

But the elephant in the room is shielding:

Particularly in a metal aircraft, but composites aren't completely immune, radio waves are severely attenuated by reflective materials such as aluminium. It is very easy to achieve 20dB of attenuation with rather little metalwork, especially at 800MHz. Just look how little metalwork there is between you and the business end of your microwave. Your food gets cooked but you do not! 20dB is the equivalent to a drop in range from, say, 10km to about 1km. If significant metalwork is between your antenna and the other guy's antenna then the losses can easily amount to 40dB or more - the difference between a range of 100km down to just 1km. These are overwhelming numbers! Let's be generous and allow for just 30dB attenuation...

We can recover that 30dB in three ways:

1. Move the antenna(s) to a position that is not shielded;
2. Increase transmit power by 30dB;
3. Increase receive sensitivity by 30dB.

1. is the only practical solution. It is the reason why all installed antennas on aircraft are external.

2. is not practical. 30dB is an increase in power of 1000 times. The ARF runs, it is said, 500mW, so we would need 500W to do it this way. Quite apart from licensing issues, that sort of power is a) dangerous (think microwaves again), b) requires a lot of kit to produce it and c) would need significant battery/generator capacity to support it.

3. is not practical. The receiver is already very sensitive, close to the limits of technology, so it is difficult to make significant gains here. Notably issues with noise, both internally generated inside the receiver and external, such as solar and ignition noise, make this impractical.

Yes, a combination might be used but by far the biggest gain - and therefore where our attention should be focussed - is in the antenna system and, especially, its position, clear of shielding.

Realistically an external antenna system is the only solution and, since we need to see all around us we most likely need more than one antenna for optimal results, exactly as the folks at Flarm have discovered. This isn't PAW's fault, nor is it a failing of the ARF. It is simply the laws of physics in action.

Sorry for the long missive!
John
G-JONL, Sportcruiser, Carlisle