new user of rosseta

[Keithvinning]

Hi Tony
Thanks for your response and the register. I will study this and use it to increase my understanding

also i think that everyone appreciates your efforts to increase safety.

Thanks on behalf of the team

perhaps i was expecting more from pilot aware. i don't know.

Can you elaborate on this please it will really help us to understand what you expected. What aircraft do you fly?

on sat a pilot i know said he has pa at home in a draw, does not use it. don't  work for him
maybe the tech to much for him. who knows
i wonder how many people have bought pa and put it in the draw and not bothered to pursue getting it to work.

PilotAware is very feature rich to meet the requirements of our users. This requires the unit to be very configurable to meet all people tastes. Consequently this requires the user to read the operating instructions to understand how it works to get the best out of it. Perhaps we should build a dumbed down version however this is defeating the objective somewhat? Its a bit like an iPad the more you investigate its functionality the better it gets (other tablets are available). 95+% of the issues that we get (apart from simply not using the correct power supply) are solved by pointing the user to to Operating Instructions. Horse and water come to mind. However we need to learn if we are doing it wrong.

the caa preferred route is adsb   (and they usually get their way in the end)
but as you say very expensive.   
also size and weight, ok for aircraft but not gliders with their limited power supply etc.
it's certainly a conundrum.

This is not the real issue. As you have independently pointed out there are 20,000 flying thingies on the UK register. This does not include paragliders, hang gliders and drones which do not have an ICAO number. If all of these aircraft were to transmit EC at 1090MHz using the old fashioned and inefficient modulation technique (Pulse Position Modulation) demanded at that frequency then there is not the bandwidth to accommodate them and something would have to go. Until it has been proven by a peer reviewed exercise that this is not the case then ADSB cannot be mandated even if the powers that be wanted to and at the moment both the CAA and EASA have said that they don't want to mandate anything. The reason that 1090MHz is the preferred solution is that it is a licensed frequency for aviation and therefore has fidelity and can be controlled. We need to understand this and take direction from the CAA but nothing has changed in this respect for 20 years. In the meantime we either wait or develop stuff. We prefer to do the latter.

Thanks for your input and help

Keith

[tonys]

morning keith

moving forward
bear in mind i am not a techy person so forgive my ignorance in that area.
and i know this going to seem a radical change of direction for pa.
why continue to use pa hardware & establish base stations.
why not create an app for ios and android which sends location data etc to your server
which in turn sends traffic details back to the app.
(google and god knows who else have been tracking us for years)
live weather and all sorts of things could be added later.
it solves the hardware problem our friends in the gliders micro lights can  run the app on their phone or whatever.
and later on a cut down phone for drones. you get my drift.
the problem as i see it is initial takeup.
as you have  pointed out pa has  2000 units out their.
offer said app for free to those people and i'm sure the uptake would start the roll.
you are in the ideal position to do this. customers trust you, you are respected by the powers that be,
your company could do it.
i know it means a complete change in direction for pa
but someone is going to do it before long.

or as is probably the case i'm talking rubbish

regards

tony

 

[Keithvinning]

Simple answer

Mobile technology does not work in the air.
In fact it is not legal to use you mobile phone in the air as it contacts too many base stations  and swamps the system.
So long story short we thought of this a couple of years ago and dismissed it for several reasons.

Keith
 

[JCurtis]

morning keith

moving forward
bear in mind i am not a techy person so forgive my ignorance in that area.
and i know this going to seem a radical change of direction for pa.
why continue to use pa hardware & establish base stations.
why not create an app for ios and android which sends location data etc to your server
which in turn sends traffic details back to the app.
(google and god knows who else have been tracking us for years)
live weather and all sorts of things could be added later.
it solves the hardware problem our friends in the gliders micro lights can  run the app on their phone or whatever.
and later on a cut down phone for drones. you get my drift.
the problem as i see it is initial takeup.
as you have  pointed out pa has  2000 units out their.
offer said app for free to those people and i'm sure the uptake would start the roll.
you are in the ideal position to do this. customers trust you, you are respected by the powers that be,
your company could do it.
i know it means a complete change in direction for pa
but someone is going to do it before long.

or as is probably the case i'm talking rubbish

regards

tony

There are a number of problems with using an App for this kind of thing...

Mobile phone networks have been developed for coverage at ground level, as soon as you head up into the air coverage is patchy as you can hit a number of base-stations.  Generally you don't notice the gaps in data transmissions, as reading a webpage is pretty static once content has arrived.  This application requires a steady stream of time critical data.

The other killer for this is latency, especially if poor quality or low data rates are all that you can rely on (e.g GRPS over 3G/4G).  Who does the filtering of the data, if you just transmit where you are, does a back end server only then send you data that is close to you?  That would mean the back end has to keep track of all the flights going on, and calculate per transmitter who else is there, then send back too all those devices the pertinent data.  This is a reasonable heavy thing to do.  Plus it needs to be resilient to be on any use.  If you just re-broadcast the data, then the available data rates in the air will cause problems with data going missing.

Accuracy of location on a device is also a problem, most phones have GPS, some better than others.  But GPS for altitude measurement, is poor.  You need barometric altitude to accurately compare heights between aircraft in any given vicinity - it is the only stable reference between them.

This list goes on, but you get the general idea...

edit: I see Keith has put the shorter answer up as I was typing.

[Keithvinning]

Hi J

Thanks for your detailed explanation. Better than my short and sweet and well stated.

Cheers

K

[JCurtis]

Hi J

Thanks for your detailed explanation. Better than my short and sweet and well stated.

Cheers

K

Forgot an important one.. There is also the issue of an App on a phone, if your using the same device for Nav (SkyDemon et al) then you would, probably, need another device to just handle the EC App, and probably multiple data contracts too.  When a phone says it's multi-tasking it is, kind of, but things will get throttled as battery usage and temperature increases.

My personal favourite add-on to the likes of PAW would be to replace the SDR dongles with a single bit of hardware, supporting multiple receive channels.  It would take quite a load off the Pi and be better at the job than an SDR dongle.  Just need to have slightly different radio channels for ADSB and UAT.  Pain to develop but better long term.  I did some basic proof of concept stuff on it last year as a pet side project, but put it aside to push forward with another box of tricks I have being launched soon.

[tonys]

ok thanks everyone for info
now i know.

[Deker]

Interesting (nerdy) facts about mobile base station antennas:-

The vast majority of antennas used in base station installations have elevation half-power
beamwidths of around 4–15 degrees.
The antennas have 'electronic' beam tilting systems such that the beam can be pointed downwards to the near horizon so that little RF is wasted into the sky.

Unfortunately the antenna designers assumption that people won't be walking about at 3,000ft with a mobile stuck to the side of their head was correct, but they forgot to account for us pilots ;-)
Those simple looking planks at the top of the cell masts have some very clever tech inside, that I don't even begin to understand how they work.

[Paul_Sengupta]

The antennas have 'electronic' beam tilting systems such that the beam can be pointed downwards to the near horizon so that little RF is wasted into the sky.

They also usually have a set downward tilt, and most also have what's called "RETs" - Remote Electrical Tilt - a motor where you can manually adjust the tilt by setting it remotely. Depending on the coverage wanted and interference, there will be an additional downtilt.

Those simple looking planks at the top of the cell masts have some very clever tech inside, that I don't even begin to understand how they work.

Some more than others. The latest tech on 4G is very advanced indeed, and allows for beam forming to adjust between higher handwidths or longer distances, to allow MIMO, to adjust the beam in real time as to where the users are located. I only half understand it and I work with it! The transceiving equipment and antenna work in harmony to provide this.

[Steve6443]

Just adding my comments to this topic. I was in the same position as others here, I initially had a Zaon MRX running, experimented with PAW, built my first unit using the original bridge, continued experimenting more but eventually put it away, similar as others have done, basically because there were cables everywhere and it looked a mess. Then last year I bought a Flarm Eagle and connected it up to my PAW and since then it is incredible the number of gliders I have been able to spot. At that point I really looked at antenna positioning, found a nice box to contain it all, tidied it up, since then never looked back..

The picture below is a screenshot of a glider circling 200 feet above me. Without Flarm added to PAW, the chances are, I might not have known, especially as I tend to fly outside the reach of stations where OGN could be transmitted to me.

*

The cost of Flarm Eagle was around €700 and the range is more than adequate - I tested the reception range of my PowerFlarm and was being seen 40km away. Even if Gliders transmit at a lower power level and I only get to see them from 5km, they will still see me a looooong way off....

Also, with Flarm Eagle, I have been able to remove the GPS from the PAW, using just the GPS from the Flarm Eagle so fewer cables and it works better than (e.g.) the Flarm Mouse GPS seemed to perform  (however my plane is admittedly a plastic airplane so I don't know how it's suitability in your typical P28A / C172 Spam Can would be  )

Since adding the Flarm Eagle, I don't fly anywhere without PAW on, it works and I see so much traffic whereas in the past, I thought I was truly on my own, in this big open sky so if you're doubting it, I would certainly recommend you spend the time and money to get the system running. I also spent the time sorting my aerials, tidying the cables up - the installation now looks clean.

The competition I used to run during a flight - you know the one: - who spots traffic first, one of my passengers or I - has now become a competition: - who spots traffic before PAW / Flarm does? Flarm / PAW is winning by around 2000:0 - at least, I can't recall not seeing an aircraft without it being on my screen.....

The lower picture was a screenshot taken on a day with cloud ceilings at 1200 feet, I was scud running and had just departed from EDLB and was heading toward EDDG - the turn north after departure was to set me on direct track towards my destination. You can see the two dutch aircraft flying close to each other at my height. Once they became visible on my system, I diverted east and flew in behind them. Just imagine neither of us knew the other were there.....



At the end of the day, the lookout still needs to be as vigilant as ever but to be honest, seeing 90% of the traffic out there electronically is better than only seeing (e.g.) 50% and missing the rest....


*server where the picture is hosted is offline between 2am and 8am to save energy