new user of rosseta

[tonys]

hello everyone
have purchased rosseta and have been getting to know it
over the last few weeks.
it has to said not very impressed so far,this is how i see things
please correct me if i'm wrong.
1/pilot aware will not identify gliders equipped with flarm
2/pilot aware will not identify ga aircraft with non adsb transponders
3/pilot aware will identify  aircraft with p3i (subject to where you put the antenna)
4/pilot aware will identify  aircraft with adsb transponders

so my conclusions are is it really worth having pilot aware on board
when their are so many aircraft not being shown.

sorry to be so negative i know its a worthy cause
but its how i see it at the moment

am i wrong ?

tony

[Mig29fuk]

Tony
Lets take it point by point.

1/pilot aware will not identify gliders equipped with flarm. Not the fault of PAW. Unfortunately FLARM is fairly proprietary. If information was forthcoming from FLARM Company it would probably be a 'target' within the remit of PAW.
The OGN Network is so far a good attempt to share Glider positions without this direct FLARM interaction.

2/pilot aware will not identify ga aircraft with non adsb transponders. Incorrect.PAW will give an indication of a Mode C or S presence as an awareness target.

3/pilot aware will identify aircraft with p3i (subject to where you put the antenna). Not sure why the inference of antennae position so relevant. An aircraft with PAW will see and communicate with another so equipped.

4/pilot aware will identify aircraft with adsb transponders. Correct and very useful.

I can sometimes be very direct so I'll issue an apology now.
This is an Aid! NOT a TCAS or ADS Tx device or meant to reduce standard VFR tasks such as look out and visual scanning. The most useful part of PAW is the Audio output.
That allows you to retain the vital lookout tasks that as a VFR Pilot are the way we are meant to fly.
Please reconsider you negativity when next you fly.
Regards
Gerry

[tonys]

hello Gerry
thanks for your frank reply
as regards point 1/ whatever the reasons the fact remains  pilot aware will NOT alert you to gliders.
point 2/ yes i stand corrected.  pilot aware will inform you that something is out their.   
point 3/  position of antenna   who knows   the pdf   pilotaware antennas states positioning is very important.

really posting my conclusions on this forum is like  putting head in the  lions mouth.
but sometimes you have to call it how you see it. even to the point of using the dreaded negative word.

regards

Tony 

[Paul_Sengupta]

You will see gliders if you're in range of one of the OGN-PAW ground stations. Most of the central part of the UK is now covered. That's assuming the glider has Flarm.

It's a bit of a catch 22 thing - back in the day when PilotAware first started to be used, people complained that it wasn't worth using it because it didn't show *everything*. Well, the more people who use it, the more people will be detected. There are something like 2000 PilotAware units out there now, so 2000 aircraft you can detect who you wouldn't otherwise be able to (though there will be some with ADS-B as well, so maybe not quite 2000).

The more that are used, the more effective it will be.

[tonys]

hello paul
thanks for the reply, as you say more the better.
interestingly  last week passing north abeam seighford
gliders did appear on pilot aware albeit fleetingly.
but perhaps people can see my frustration when at the airfield
today aircraft everywhere and not one appearing on pilot aware.
and yes i have got settings correct.
regards
tony

[Paul_Sengupta]

Did you suggest to them to buy one for themselves? 

[tonys]

no need paul
they do have a base station
and i think its in the ogn network
and it appeared on pilotaware
but dont  count as an aircraft.

[Paul_Sengupta]

I mean all the aircraft you couldn't see. Now you have one, you can convince others to get one on the back of the fact that now they'll be able to see you. 

[Admin]

Hi Tony

Sorry to hear you are disappointed, I think there have been a few follow up posts to your original

I would like to ask something related to your post, I wanted to understand your expectations
Regarding the 4 points you raised, 2 of the points indicated what could be seen, and 2 of the points indicated what could not be seen
of the 2 issues regarding what could not be seen

1/pilot aware will not identify gliders equipped with flarm
2/pilot aware will not identify ga aircraft with non adsb transponders

I think we established that PilotAware will see Mode C/S if enabled - it will however only report as a bearingless target
as an aside - I found this very interesting article on CHIRP today
Page 4 Situational Awareness
https:
//www.chirp.co.uk/upload/docs/General%20Aviation/GAFB%20Edition%2076%20-%20May%202018%20(E%20Version).pdf

OK, so coming back to your post, I think the remaining issue you have is that PilotAware will not receive FLARM (directly)
I am more concerned with what led you to believe PilotAware would receive FLARM ?

Have you read somewhere in our docs or has somebody told you that PilotAware will receive FLARM, I would really like to know, because that needs correcting - I do not want to perpetuate something which is patently incorrect.

Thx
Lee

[Deker]

but perhaps people can see my frustration when at the airfield
today aircraft everywhere and not one appearing on pilot aware.
and yes i have got settings correct.
regards
tony

Hi Tony,

As you are aware, PAW will display ADS-B, PAW and Flarm (when in range of and OGN) which you were at the field.
Also, PAW will indicate mode C and Mode S as a bearing-less warning. I find these useful as you get a relative height and the green / yellow / red rings to indicate the (very) approximate proximity of the other aircraft.
So, your PAW would 'see' everything that was transmitting that day while at the field. The only reason that I can think of why PAW didn't give any warnings is none of the other aircraft were transmitting  anything? Not really a fault of PAW.

But it WILL demonstrate it's value one day, when it alerts you to to a conflicting aircraft that you did not see in your visual scan, THEN you realise the price is an absolute bargain, even for just that one warning :-)

Good on you for installing PAW, the sky just got a bit safer for us all.

Deker.

[tonys]

hello lee and deker

first let me reply to lee
first as regards flarm simply pointing out that pilot aware will not see it
agreed that no where does pa say that it will.
i think that everyone flying will agree that gliders are arguably the most difficult aircraft to see.
the ogn network may improve that situation.
bearingless targets.  hmm something out their, perhaps a distraction, debatable if that is useful.

now then deker
we are in total agreement,pa has only to point out  the one you dont see once.
i will continue to use pa.
but the whole point of my original post the bottom line
is this.
with 2,000 units sold and 20,000 ga aircraft of varying types in the uk
the very best is 10% other aircraft having pa
sorry but thats the facts.
like it or not.

regards
tony

[Paul_Sengupta]

Some of the other 18,000 will have ADS-B.

The majority of the others will have Mode C or Mode S transponders, so you'll be able to get an indication of those.

As an increasing number of aircraft take on some form of electronic conspicuity, you'll see an increasing number show up on your display. We're only at the very beginning really. The point stands, if you're at an airfield and aircraft you didn't see land as well, have a chat with them, demonstrate PilotAware to them, see if they'd be interested in getting one.

[John Parker]

And all who have serviceable transponders must have them on now from 12th October last year so that helps the cause too. Although I know of some old school pilots who are resisting the switch.

[Keithvinning]

but the whole point of my original post the bottom line
is this.
with 2,000 units sold and 20,000 ga aircraft of varying types in the uk
the very best is 10% other aircraft having pa
sorry but thats the facts.
like it or not.

Hi Tony

Thanks for your input to the forum. At PilotAware continuous improvement and value for money are our key drivers and we are truly passionate about giving everyone the best chance of detecting other aircraft in the sky. At the lowest cost. This would not be possible without the hard work that has been done by all over the last 3 years.

If as you say there are 20,000 GA aircraft in the UK then knowing what I know(will anyone please correct me if you have published data) there are approximately

2500 gliders using FLARM or Power FLARM
2000 aircraft using PilotAware
12000 aircraft using Mode C/S
500-1000 using ADSB either by ADSB transponders, Mode S with ES and a none approved GPS or Sky Echo
The rest 2000-3000 with nothing.
The figures aren't that accurate as some will have more than 1. I suspect the 2000 - 3000 with nothing is understated


PilotAware WILL see gliders that have FLARM or OGN trackers when a PilotAware user is in the reception area of an upgraded OGN-R transceiver. Our supporters have achieved an "engineering conquest of Everest" by installing 75+ OGN-R antennas in just over a year to achieve great coverage in the UK. Even the EASA Committee on Electronic Conspicuity have feted this as a great achievement. Users will tell you that when its bad weather the gliders are all on the ground but when its good they all seem to be in the sky and you will see lots. It can be daunting but they are there and you will see them and be glad you can.

Pilotaware will of course see PilotAware that's another possible 2000. Not all in the same place of course.

PilotAware will also give you a warning of mode C/S traffic in the vicinity with a relative height separation and a relative distance so thats the next 1200 sorted as far as physics is concerned. To get a bearing from bearing-less targets without the use of primary RADAR would take a genius to achieve particularly at £250. Of course if you have mode S you will not see anyone electronically so including Mode S as a conspicuity devise that will allow you to see anyone is a misnomer.

So that leaves the remaining 2-3000 who do not transmit anything. The answer here is

(i) Replace your existing kit with an ADSB transponder available but very expensive. You will then need something to view ADSB on and that will only be the very few folks who have ADSB as shown above.
(ii) Buy a FLARM unit. Power FLARM is the best it will show you FLARM traffic ADSB and C/S and FLARM equipped equipment will see you Cost will be £1500 plus
(iii) Buy an ADSB transceiver and turn off your Mode S ( a bit counter productive as you will still only be able to see ADSB and Mode C/S) £600
(iiii) Use PilotAware, See 2000 PilotAware users, 2500 gliders, 12000 Mode C/S as bearing less targets and get voice alerts

I think you will find that this is more than 10% of the total receivable fleet.

We will continue to do our best to provide the greatest conspicuity for the lowest cost and really appreciate all views on how we can do this better. perhaps we are missing a trick?

Keith
 

[tonys]

hello keith
thank you for your detailed reply.
just to clarify a few points, the number of ga aircraft in the uk as published by caa jan 2018 approx 20,000
all types. please find attached pdf of the breakdown. as regards percentages i'm sure you have a better understanding than i.
also i think that everyone appreciates your efforts to increase safety.
i know i do.
perhaps i was expecting more from pilot aware. i don't know.
but these things have to be said in the interest of moving forward.
on sat a pilot i know said he has pa at home in a draw, does not use it. don't  work for him
maybe the tech to much for him. who knows
i wonder how many people have bought pa and put it in the draw and not bothered to pursue getting it to work.
anyway by the by back to real issue what is the way forward.
the caa preferred route is adsb   (and they usually get their way in the end)
but as you say very expensive.   
also size and weight, ok for aircraft but not gliders with their limited power supply etc.
it's certainly a conundrum.
i dont know the answer.

 i  await  further comments.

regards

tony