Author Topic: Transmit power and range  (Read 58505 times)

ianfallon

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2015, 05:26:16 pm »
On the latest software you can config each unit to be master and slave for testing via the config on 192.168.1.1

You get the power levels in the logging after setting them both up like that embedded in the log messages

Richard W

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2015, 05:36:29 pm »
On the latest software you can config each unit to be master and slave for testing via the config on 192.168.1.1

Thanks, I see that now, under Serial.

ianfallon

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2015, 08:15:18 pm »
I now have 2 PAWs with the SMA soldered mod so if possible will fly one with another on the ground tomorrow and look at range - will report back.

AlanB

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2015, 08:42:30 pm »
Flew my pilot aware with a ground based unit also switched on and monitoring.

Airborne pilotaware detected by ground until about 7nm while ground based unit was lost by airborne unit at about 2nm. Supect limited by power supply as using a iPhone type battery recharge pack on the ground unit. Airborne unit powered by a high power battery with a 2amp outlet and short,15cm, usb cable.

I'm also ads-b out transponder equipped and range of detection not an issue.

Overall pleased with the detection range of the Of the pilot aware signal provided it's only a power supply issue with the ground based unit.
Europa XS Mode-S ADS-B out enabled.

The Westmorland Flyer

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2015, 11:22:13 am »
One of the things that will make a vast difference to range, both for ADS-B and for PAW, but especially for the latter, is antenna location. For those of us flying all metal aircraft this has to be an important consideration. For example, the obvious place, on the instrument coaming will mean that signals will be profoundly attenuated below and behind the aircraft. This is not so much a problem for ADS-B, where we are only receiving but for PAW that means that a following aircraft won't see our transmissions and nor will we see his.

This got me thinking about where to put the antennas. From an engineering perspective it is quite easy to have the antennas wherever you want them, either on coaxial cable extension leads or by remoting the dongle with a USB extension cable. If we are flying a PtF aircraft then in principle we can put antennas wherever we like. More difficult for C of A aircraft unfortunately.

For ADS-B reception it is probably fair to say that most stuff will be above us, at least for the time being. As more GA aircraft get ADS-B capability this will change. ADS-B transmissions from the aircraft transponder are at considerably higher power, in the order of 200W peak power typically, so we can afford some losses. An antenna on the fuselage roof should be sufficient for good all round coverage and it might even be that one on the coaming will be adequate. As an aside, transponder antennas are always mounted on the aircraft underbelly because they are transmitting to and receiving from the ground-based radar. We, of course, are listening to the aircraft's interrogation replies rather than the ground radar.

For PAW transmission/reception things are more tricky. The transmit power is quite low so we cannot afford much attenuation. An antenna on the roof and another on the underbelly coupled to the ARF via a coaxial power splitter cable would do the trick but is awkward to engineer and probably somewhat OTT. It's definitely something we need to think about to gain maximum benefit from PAW.

Finally, I'd like to open up the Pandora's box of RF interoperability. We have an ADS-B receiver operating on 1090MHz and a PAW transmitting on 868MHz. It's a fair bet that the front end of the ADS-B dongle isn't the most selective of receivers and a nearby transmitter, albeit 200MHz away, might well swamp the ADS-B dongle's front end. The general rule of thumb here is to keep the antennas out of each other's near field, usually considered to be 2-3 wavelengths. At 1000MHz the wavelength is 30cm, so ideally the ADS-B and PAW antennas should be at least a metre apart to be on the safe side. It would be fairly easy to do some tests to see whether this is a real problem or not.

All this is a bit theoretical but it's based on decades of RF engineering work as well. As we gain real life experience we'll get a better handle on the performance issues and how to fix them. It would be interesting to hear other pilots' thoughts and experiences.
John
G-JONL, Sportcruiser, Carlisle

Richard

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2015, 11:50:27 am »
Westmorland Flyer
      I could not agree more. you are spot on with my thinking too. Dare I say it, but a nice little read is the setup of the antennas in the installation manual of the P**** F***M Remember they have been hear before .
Richard.
Europa XS

AlanB

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2015, 01:44:29 pm »
My twopennce worth.

I fly a Europa so composite, with the Pilot Aware on the front parcel shelf with the two antennae about 10-15cm apart..

Shielding would be me or the engine and I wasn't doing anything other than flying away and back and not exploring the polar diag.

Certainly I was also seeing other ADS-b traffic up to 30nm at EGLL as well as 2-3 nm away so I concluded that no immediate effect of swamping of the PAW ADS-B receiver by the PAW 868 and I also switched on my own transponder and that had no swamping impact on the PAW ADS-B reception with transponder antenna at 8-10 foot away.

By no means scientific but just my initial observations. More flights intended and also considering better antennae which I'll construct as Dipoles with the correct length and separation mounted in the fuselage.
Europa XS Mode-S ADS-B out enabled.

The Westmorland Flyer

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2015, 02:01:54 pm »
Very interesting Alan, thank you. It's particularly encouraging that the transponder doesn't mess with PAW ADS-B reception, as that is a seriously high power. It tends to suggest that the dongle front end is reasonably bulletproof, although, of course at 8-10ft away the inverse square law is doing its thing quite well too.

I've been thinking some more about this and I reckon that by far the best place for the antennas is in the wing tips, which are almost always composite, even on all metal aircraft like my Sportcruiser. ARF on one side and ADS-B on the other side, probably vertical dipoles, as you suggest, should give near enough 360 degree coverage and be well away from other noise sources.
John
G-JONL, Sportcruiser, Carlisle

Moffrestorer

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2015, 03:07:29 pm »
Hi John,

Sounds like a lot of very lossy coax, weight and difficulty to me!

Chris

The Westmorland Flyer

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2015, 04:10:54 pm »
Not really. Modern low loss coax such as LMR-240 would only lose around 1.5 to 2dB along the length of a wing and that would be more than made up by using a full size dipole out in the clear rather than the whip. Weight? Around half a kilo for both wing lengths. I do agree it's a lot of faffing around and I only said it was the best location, not the easiest. I wish I'd thought of it when I was building JONL!
John
G-JONL, Sportcruiser, Carlisle

bnmont

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2015, 09:03:21 pm »
I once made one of these for my flexwing, just had it tapped to the inside of the pod. It seemed to work fairly well.
http://www.xplorer.co.za/wonder-whip/index.html
Any reason not to make and use connected to the ARF?
By my calcs i think the antenna legs only need to be around 320mm.
Thoughts please!

Thanks Brian

The Westmorland Flyer

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2015, 11:10:07 am »
The wonder-whip is just a slightly oddly realised dipole but its performance would certainly be significantly better than any whip antenna, especially at air band frequencies. More conventional dipoles have two identical elements, fed at the centre with coaxial cable that emerges perpendicular to the elements. For the frequencies we are dealing with the dipole is small and can be easily fabricated using single sided printed circuit board.

For 868MHz the wavelength is 34.5cm, so each quarter wave element is 8.6cm. We need to allow for a velocity factor of around 0.9 (signals move more slowly in wires than in free space), giving an element length of 7.8cm.

At 1090 MHz, for the ADS-B antenna, the same calculation yields an element length of 6.2cm.

Dipoles made to these dimensions would hugely outperform the rubber ducks that come as standard. Maybe that's not needed for the ADS-B side but for the P3i component I think the effort is likely to be worthwhile.

Someone with PCB making facilities could make these antennas quite trivially. Or a bit of DIY work with some PCB material, a scalpel and a soldering iron would yield the same result.
John
G-JONL, Sportcruiser, Carlisle

ianfallon

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2015, 11:42:02 am »
Would be interesting to see results if someone if someone could make some up.
Am sure there would be takers to buy them too.

The Westmorland Flyer

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2015, 12:02:16 pm »
I'm planning to make a PCB 868MHz antenna with which to do some trials. Trouble is that around these parts there are no others playing with PAW yet, so I'm going to have to make a second unit to act as a test rig. I'm on the case!

Question for Lee: what do I need for a cut down system to just do P3i Tx/Rx? Can I get away with just an RPi and ARF module or do I also have to have WiFi, GPS, ADS-B? My thinking is to have the cut down unit on the ground somewhere and then fly around it with a complete PAW in the cockpit to see what happens.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 12:04:50 pm by The Westmorland Flyer »
John
G-JONL, Sportcruiser, Carlisle

ianfallon

Re: Transmit power and range
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2015, 01:44:29 pm »
If I were you I'd make a complete 2nd unit - easy to sell on after am sure.