Author Topic: Antennas too large for the coaming  (Read 10258 times)

DavidC

Antennas too large for the coaming
« on: September 28, 2015, 06:08:07 pm »
I flew with a unit recently and placed it on the coaming next a F***M box. I have two antennas at the moment, one for the ADS-B and another for 868MHz. By comparison the unit and antennas were both large, cumbersome and awkward. There wasn't really enough space to have the 868MHz antenna vertical as it should be.

1) Do I need both antennas? The ADS-B dongle on the hardware manual doesn't have one attached, so I wondered if I could dispense with that one.

2) There was another thread about using a smaller stubby one. Does anyone have any experience/results from those and how much do they affect range/performance.

3) How important is it to have the antenna vertically oriented?

Thanks in advance

Andy Fell

Re: Antennas too large for the coaming
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2015, 08:42:54 pm »
I flew with a unit recently and placed it on the coaming next a F***M box. I have two antennas at the moment, one for the ADS-B and another for 868MHz. By comparison the unit and antennas were both large, cumbersome and awkward. There wasn't really enough space to have the 868MHz antenna vertical as it should be.

1) Do I need both antennas? The ADS-B dongle on the hardware manual doesn't have one attached, so I wondered if I could dispense with that one.

2) There was another thread about using a smaller stubby one. Does anyone have any experience/results from those and how much do they affect range/performance.

3) How important is it to have the antenna vertically oriented?

Thanks in advance

hi,

1) Yes you need to be able to receive with both systems.  If you don't have an antenna for ADS-B, then you won't be able to pick up these transmissions.

2) The stubby antennas have slightly reduced performance over the longer ones (on paper!).  In practise however, you may find that a stubby works fine, especially as the ADS-B antenna.. ModeS transponders have a much higher transmit power output that the 868MHz ARF module, so you can pick ADS-B up from literally 10's or 100's of miles away - which is a bit unnecessary for what we are trying to do here.

unfortunately, since a lot of these come from the Far East where the testing is a bit shoddy; one stubby antenna is not as good as another stubby antenna, so it can be a bit hit and miss.  Frankly, some of them are not even tuned to the right band.  I've had some claiming to be 868MHz antennas, only to measure them on a network anaylser and find actually they'd work better for WiFi at 2.45GHz!

What you could try is a stubby antenna for both.  I had an idea of making up a wire dipole with suction pads that suck onto the windscreen and plug into the pilotaware (for the 868MHz).  It would be a half wave dipole (a little bit like the FM antennas you can get with some HiFi units that people 'blu tack' to the wall - but use suction cups instead), it's flexible so you could form it to the shape of your screen.  There's no reason why this shouldn't work.

3)  Re vertical polarisation:  Antennas emit most efficiently perpendicular to the antenna element.  So you can imagine that with a vertical antenna you will be most efficient around you in the horizontal sense (i.e. you'll be looking out to the horizon).  Think of it as a 'doughnut shape' around the antenna (although this is rather theoretical).

For a diagram, see http://www.cisco.com/c/dam/en/us/products/collateral/wireless/aironet-antennas-accessories/prod_white_paper0900aecd806a1a3e.doc/_jcr_content/renditions/0900aecd806a1a3e_null_null_null_08_07_07-04.jpg

Imagine, then, mounting your antenna horizontally.  Your maximum efficiency will be pointing down to the ground or straight up into the air, so you will not be looking out to the horizon, which is what you really need to be doing.  in fact, you will have what is refereed to as a 'null' in the horizontal direction  (i.e. out to the horizon) pointing exactly out of the 'end' of the antenna - this is where the antenna really does not work well (think of it like a bar magnet and how the fields flow from N to S pole)

Of course, there are practical constraints and compromises as you've noted..in addition to this there is the screening effect of any metal near the antenna, especially a metal fuselage if you have one. The idea really is to mount as vertically as possible.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 09:24:08 pm by Wobblewing »

Andy Fell

Re: Antennas too large for the coaming
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2015, 09:28:21 pm »
...on a permit aircraft the best would be to have a properly fitted antenna (similar to a transponder antenna installation with a decent sized ground plane).  This would yield the best performance for the pilotaware and give you more advanced warning of other traffic (and other traffic more advanced warning of your presence!).

on rental or spamcan CofA aircraft this is (probably) not desirable, so a portable solution is definitely called for.  Here's another example of the paperwork getting in the way of a decent safety upgrade :-)  (let's not get started, eh!)

Enjoy!
Andy
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 09:35:30 pm by Wobblewing »

homeuser

Use of existing external antennas?
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2016, 06:58:39 am »
Hi everybody,

taking into account that the two NAV units onboard use the same external antenna with a T-connection I was thinking whether (apart from legal aspects regarding fixed installation) it was possible to also use such T-connectors to wire PAW into existing and used external antennas such as the transponder-Antenna. That would ft regarding the frequency since it´s basically transponder signals we want to pick up... Regarding the sending antenna (860 MHz or so) I´m pretty sure there is no suitable antenna on the outside of a normal plane since no onboard system uses that frequency band...

Am I right with these assumptions and would the fact that the ransponder is a transmitting device while the PAW is a receiving devide "hurt" in this respect?

Thanks

homeuser

JCurtis

Re: Use of existing external antennas?
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2016, 08:31:41 am »
Hi everybody,

taking into account that the two NAV units onboard use the same external antenna with a T-connection I was thinking whether (apart from legal aspects regarding fixed installation) it was possible to also use such T-connectors to wire PAW into existing and used external antennas such as the transponder-Antenna. That would ft regarding the frequency since it´s basically transponder signals we want to pick up... Regarding the sending antenna (860 MHz or so) I´m pretty sure there is no suitable antenna on the outside of a normal plane since no onboard system uses that frequency band...

Am I right with these assumptions and would the fact that the ransponder is a transmitting device while the PAW is a receiving devide "hurt" in this respect?

Thanks

homeuser

Whilst you could potentially 'T' off a receiving aerial, for a transmitter that is not a good idea and could damage the transmitter (it will 'see' a different load that it expects).  Also the RF power going into the ADS-B dongle would be orders of magnitude larger that it was designed to handle and could permanently damage it.
Designer and maker of charge4.harkwood.co.uk, smart universal USB chargers designed for aviation.  USB Type-A and USB-C power without the RF interference. Approved for EASA installs under CS-STAN too.

exfirepro

Re: Antennas too large for the coaming
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2016, 10:47:52 am »
Hi again homeuser,

As Jeremy says, definitely not a good idea to try 'Tee'ing' off the transponder antenna. This will effectively put up to 250watts of RF straight into your PAW 1090MHz receiver and bye-bye receiver. It might also blow the output stage of your transponder due to the mismatch this would create - very expensive.

Splitting antennas between receivers (and more especially transmitters) is a highly technical science, not to be meddled in without the requisite knowledge. Proper antenna splitters are available for some applications but are expensive - especially for transmitters. Cheap ones are probably a con!

Much better to look to alternative antenna solutions - the thin ADSB antenna can be shortened, but be careful not to go too far or you will reduce received signal to the point where you effectively stop the alerts. See here for examples:

http://forum.pilotaware.com/index.php/topic,438.msg6096.html#msg6096

If you can't fit the fixed P3i antenna vertical, I suggest looking to the centre fed dipoles on the hardware site, which can be remotely fitted to keep them vertical and are impedance matched to the transceiver without the need for a ground plane.

Regards

Peter
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 11:07:24 am by exfirepro »

homeuser

Re: Antennas too large for the coaming
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2016, 06:16:43 pm »
Got you thanks for this!

In fact the argument that it may not be a good idea to feed 240 Watts directly into the PAW is most
convincing...

I'll also not risk to kill the transponder...

I still do not like the idea to have two antennas inside the cabin and at least one transmitting. Since there is no way that we'll drill additional holes into the plane, I'm still wondering which other options I might have...

There has to be an ADF antenna somewhere which is not used any more. Maybe this existent hole and even wiring may provide options?

Ideally I'd still want both antennas to be outside...

Keithvinning

Re: Antennas too large for the coaming
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2016, 09:44:52 pm »
External antenna are the best. However Aviation technolgy and hardware sell an inexpensive centre fed dipole on a 2 metre lead that could be used internally. This is what we used on a sky ranger for some of the range testing and it proved ok

baltzop

Re: Antennas too large for the coaming
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2016, 03:16:13 pm »
Installed PAW on my Piper Tomahawk and antennas fit fine (just about):

https://www.facebook.com/gbgrm/posts/865310946906087

Everything works fine and can see traffic in Skydemon although most of it commercial- Hope there are  more PAW users in future.

The only problem with mine is my power supply as the USB charger tends to come out of the charger plug on the instrument panel if there is excessive vibration e.g. during take-off. I haven't found a charger that fits properly yet! Not a PAW problem as such and if charger pushed back in then PAW powers up without problems anyway. My solution is to have Skydemon on a phone connected via the PAW and Skydemon on ipad running with its own or my other external GPS so that if I loose power to the PAW, I have GPS feed to the other Skydemon device.

A fantastic traffic awareness system.
Many thanks
Regards and safe flying
Bill

T67M

Re: Antennas too large for the coaming
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2016, 10:23:17 pm »
One thing to bear in mind is that you should never need to see or touch the PAw during flight, and while the antennas do need a good view out of the aircraft, in aircraft like the majority of Cessnas, the rear window is at least as good as the coaming, and in a PA28 the rear side windows work quite well. Those of us with a bubble canopy and a baggage compartment have almost too many options!

If the PAw is running from a battery with no audio, it is trivial to locate the PAw out of the way. Power and/or audio cables do require a little (but not too much) more thought.

Keithvinning

Re: Antennas too large for the coaming
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2016, 06:55:32 pm »
Quote
The only problem with mine is my power supply as the USB charger tends to come out of the charger plug on the instrument panel if there is excessive vibration e.g. during take-off. I haven't found a charger that fits properly yet! Not a PAW problem as such and if charger pushed back in then PAW powers up without problems anyway. My solution is to have Skydemon on a phone connected via the PAW and Skydemon on ipad running with its own or my other external GPS so that if I loose power to the PAW, I have GPS feed to the other Skydemon device.

Hi Bill

By far the best cigarette lighter charger that I have found at a reasonable price is the Anker Power Drive 2 Model 2310. It fits my socket very well without being loose. Perhaps its your socket. These are available from eBay at about £8.00. If you buy one and fit the Powerdrive 2 into it and hide it behind your dashboard it makes an inexpensive 12V to 5.2V converter

 

baltzop

Re: Antennas too large for the coaming
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2016, 10:15:22 am »
Many thanks for advice Keith. I bought the Anker device and it fits snug in the GPS charging socket on the panel as you suggested so I had no problems with interruptions of the power supply to the PAW unit during take-off when I tested it yesterday.
Many thanks!

Photos of new installation:

https://www.facebook.com/gbgrm/posts/927328854037629
« Last Edit: September 18, 2016, 10:21:36 am by baltzop »

Dix-sept

Re: Antennas too large for the coaming
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2016, 12:42:00 pm »
Hi, new to the forum and PAW, but learning the ropes. I too had an issue with the PAW on the coaming and so I moved it to the rear window. The areials both have a clear view through the perspex and (hopefully) this also eliminates much of the issue wth possible interference from the engine (metal) or pilot (water) as there is rarely ever anyone in the rear seats.





Tested in flight and all works well (well, it picks up Mode S stuff, I'm the only PAW user in my area at the moment but one day I'm sure I'll have company!) I have the audio running into the rear mic socket so saves me running long extension cables to the front audio panel (another benefit of never carrying PAX!) - just need to get close enough to some traffic to see if that bit works!

Keithvinning

Re: Antennas too large for the coaming
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2016, 07:15:26 pm »
Hi
We can assure you it does and very well.
Where are you based

Keith

Dix-sept

Re: Antennas too large for the coaming
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2016, 01:53:58 pm »
Where are you based

Keith

LFCP - Sunny SW France  ;D