PilotAware
British Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: GrahamB on April 18, 2017, 11:40:52 pm
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Not sure if I just missed a press release or two or if the info below is actually news.
Flying back to Conington from Nottingham this afternoon we noticed several aircraft plots on our Sky Demon screens (via Pilot Aware) that were using the call sign UP-OGN and giving relative heights, locations and direction of flight. Although at the time we were a bit mystified by the call signs a few mins on Google would suggest that these were gliders using some sort of system possibly originating from the Open Glider Network.
Has anyone else seen these and/or have any more info about the contacts showing as UP-OGN. If indeed they were gliders then that is great news as we were not convinced about installing a FLARM mouse so would not have been aware of their presence. On the down side, despite the clues from the SD plots as to where to look we only saw one glider of the six or seven indicated. Before anyone says anything about not favouring looking at screens inside rather than the world out side, there were two of us so we could do both!
Any other info gratefully received.
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I noticed one on Monday.
I suspect if you wait for a couple of weeks, all will become clear. ;D
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From that reply someone knows more than he is telling..... come on spill.
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If, as appears to be the case, this involves taking Flarm-derived data from the OGN network and using groundstations to upload it to Pilotaware. is this not going to cause toys to be throw out of the pram in a big way? My understanding is that an uneasy peace exists between Flarm and OGN on the basis that using Flarm data for display on the ground is sort-of OK on the basis that it doesn't affect Flarm's business, but using it in the air for collision avoidance seems another matter altogether.
Otherwise, a neat idea if it doesn't overload the RF side of things (as recently mooted in a Flarm context) and, as always, provided no bright spark starts spoofing.
Alan
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I've just trawled through my track logs and found UP-OGN too. 8)
Was on 2-April-17 and logged routing south from Sherbern in Elmet.
Ooooh, so what's it all about :o
ATB
Deker
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lots and lots of UP-OGN on the way back from Sywell today...
look forward to hearing about this :)
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Curious symbols that SD use. This is EasyVFR screenshot. Managed to get a visual on the lead glider as he was turning head-on. Others obscured in the mist.
PAW was faultless on the the way to Sywell. Unfortunately on the return leg to Shobdon, the WiFi dropped out on a number of occasions and had to do power off/on resets to get it back. Did a re-boot when back on the ground. Not sure what was going on, faulty WiFi dongle or overheating behind panel.
Edited: to say WiFi running at 100mW, so perhaps I need to try reducing it?
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From that reply someone knows more than he is telling..... come on spill.
I wonder when the tin of UP-OGN beans will be spilt ?
Deker
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Now. It was announced at the Popham show this weekend. I'm sure the guys will post more as and when they've got home and logged on!
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Tell us more.....just a brief idea what it's about!
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(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/spill-beans-spilled-can-baked-white-52708704.jpg)
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Dunno why no one has come back about this, I guess they're going to write something in the announcement bit of the site or something.
Anyway, it's like this. At certain sites there will be a combined OGN/PilotAware station. Any Flarm targets received on the OGN will be rebroadcast on the PilotAware, and be visible to anyone within range of the ground station.
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Hi All,
I also don't want to tread on others toes, but as most of you have already worked out what is going on and all was revealed on the stand at Popham at the weekend, I just want to make a couple of quick but very important points to help 'clarify' the situation before the rumours start to get out of hand.
Glider and other FLARM/OGN aircraft movements and positions are already in the public domain through OGN and other public apps and websites. The clever part of this collaboration, is that glider (or other FLARM/OGN aircraft) positions are only broadcast when a PilotAware equipped aircraft is detected in range of a gliding site and is thus a potential threat to their aircraft. This of course helps us to comply with our responsibility under the ANO to see and give way to gliders, so effectively increasing the Flarm Users' safety (as well as ours), without either of us having to fit the other's equipment. A mutually beneficial arrangement. Remember, though that the gliders won't 'see' us electronically and its still up to us to avoid them.
The important point is that we are simply (re)broadcasting data which is already in the public domain, but doing so in a way which is in the best interests of Flarm's own Users.
The system is currently only active around the South Midlands, but I saw loads of UP-OGN showing during my transit through the area down to Popham from Scotland on Friday and not only gliders - (think RAF training fleet).
If (as I do) you want to 'see' FLARM equipped aircraft away from known and active sites, you will still need to equip your aircraft with FLARM, so if anything this should increase FLARM's sales not affect them negatively.
Regards
Peter
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Well I think it's an absolutely brilliant collaboration! Well done Lee et al.
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Hi All,
Well the cat kind of crept out of the bag, so we thought we should begin the disclosure at Popham over the weekend.
Keith and Peter worked avidly on Saturday to get a 'pop-up' OGN/PAW Groundstation running, which worked perfectly tracking aircraft in and around Lasham. We even saw OGN tracked MotorGliders and Tugs arriving and departing Popham.
Many thanks to Jan Houlberg at Aviation Insurers - Visicover for providing access to the internet via his mobile 4G router
So lets get the discussion ball rolling :)
Initial Announcement
Open Glider Network and PilotAware (http://forum.pilotaware.com/index.php/topic,885.0.html)
Many thanks
PilotAware Team
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A fantastic and stunning achievement. 8)
Congratulations to the PAW team.
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So whats needed to be one of these broadcasting stations?
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So whats needed to be one of these broadcasting stations?
Keith Vinning with the help of Guy Glover is working on instructions to install a new OGN/PAW combined ground station, and also how to upgrade an existing OGN station to a combined OGN/PAW
The Instructions are pretty much the same as a standard OGN installation, except it has the following additions
- Hardware
- PilotAware Bridge
- PilotAware Antenna
- Software
- PilotAware Decoder
The installation has to be as simple as possible, which basically means
- Install the hardware
- Load the SD card with Software
- Boot and Configure for geographic location
Installation requirements
- A good view of the sky, so - highest antenna mounting possible
- An internet connection
Thx
Lee
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So whats needed to be one of these broadcasting stations?
Keith Vinning with the help of Guy Glover is working on instructions to install a new OGN/PAW combined ground station, and also how to upgrade an existing OGN station to a combined OGN/PAW
The Instructions are pretty much the same as a standard OGN installation, except it has the following additions
- Hardware
- PilotAware Bridge
- PilotAware Antenna
- Software
- PilotAware Decoder
The installation has to be as simple as possible, which basically means
- Install the hardware
- Load the SD card with Software
- Boot and Configure for geographic location
Installation requirements
- A good view of the sky, so - highest antenna mounting possible
- An internet connection
Thx
Lee
Hi Russ
As Lee says we are working on the detailed instructions on how to
(i) Upgrade an existing OGN site which is usually located at a glider site or in a glider enthusiasts premises. (this will be done with the co-operation of the existing OGN champions and is expected to cost about £150 or less for he bits)
(ii) Install 100+ additional new OGN receivers and PilotAware uplinks to fill in the gaps and provide redundancy in existing areas. This is the great synergy that the project gives as it expands the OGN reach by putting units at our flying sites and enthusiasts premises as well as the glider sites. (To install a new OGN Receiver and PilotAware uplink will cost about £250 or less)
The idea is that we encourage additional OGN Champions from the powered community who will consider installing individual Receivers or a group of Receivers and Uplinks to "protect their area".
We envisage that a Club will have a raffle or a curry night to fund the installation. A small cost to enable your area of 30KMs and to link up with the next.
We will be setting up an email address where folks who want to get involved in creating history, and get the tee shirt as it were, can register their interest.
What do you guys think?
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Great concept chaps, well done.
When you mention having overlapping ground stations, will that not result in duplicates hitting a PAW airborne receiver?
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When you mention having overlapping ground stations, will that not result in duplicates hitting a PAW airborne receiver?
This was one of the objectives of the trial.
Yes it can receive duplicates, but this is resolved in software, in fact this is resolved today in the receiver nothing special was written to handle that scenario.
This was the main reason for choosing Bidford, Wellesbourne and Shenington, if you notice they are in a perfect triangle, and so one of the trial objectives was to be able to fly through the various parts of the triangle and assert the data was correct, from multiple sources
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Team,
What happens when an aircraft is carrying FLARM and PAW actively transmitting both ?
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... and get the tee shirt ...
What do you guys think?
I'd buy one. The T-shirt that is. No, really!
Got my RV-6 one on today, as it happens.
Slightly more seriously.
How is the UP-OGN roll out being co-ordinated?
Are the existing OGN sites being contacted to persuade them to participate or are we hoping they will show an interest?
There is a gliding club near my home that is apparently an OGN station. Just wondering if/when they might go UP-OGN.
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Team,
What happens when an aircraft is carrying FLARM and PAW actively transmitting both ?
Richard,
Lee would have to give you the technical answer, but as you know, I run both PAW and FlarmMouse and didn't see myself appearing as UP-OGN en route through the 'Test Zone' to and from Popham, if that's what you mean. I did see loads of other UP-OGN contacts, so I guess it's dealt with in the filters.
Regards
Peter
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Team,
What happens when an aircraft is carrying FLARM and PAW actively transmitting both ?
So long as the same ID code is used in
- FLARM
- PilotAware
- ModeS/ES
It is all resolved in software
thx
Lee
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Thank you
Yes that is the answers I suspected from the testing. Grate keep up the brilliant work you are doing.
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How is the UP-OGN roll out being co-ordinated?
Are the existing OGN sites being contacted to persuade them to participate or are we hoping they will show an interest?
There is a gliding club near my home that is apparently an OGN station. Just wondering if/when they might go UP-OGN.
Not sure if you have seen the LAA Article yet ?
please contact ogn@pilotaware.com
The roll out will probably be quite ad-hoc - we are not the CAA or NATS :o
A number of volunteers have already come forward to say they will do the work, additionally we need to help people raise the funds - but this needs to be done at the grass roots level - strut & club donations, and also possibly a helping hand from our flying associations LAA, BMAA, BGA, FASVIG.
Thx
Lee
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I notice, in PAW-derived screenshots on the Flyer forum, that the Flarm targets all have the ID "UP-OGN" rather than any unique Flarm-related ID. Is this just temporary or the way it will work in the long term? I had been wondering how this new development would work with the OGN privacy model but I guess this partly sidesteps the issue.
On a related topic, since my previous query was ignored, I'd still like to know if PAW intends to implement any privacy measures such as Flarm/OGN do, or is it now inevitable that using PAW means all flight data will be uploaded and archived at FR24 etc?
Alan
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On a related topic, since my previous query was ignored, I'd still like to know if PAW intends to implement any privacy measures such as Flarm/OGN do, or is it now inevitable that using PAW means all flight data will be uploaded and archived at FR24 etc?
Alan
For the main FR24 feed it uses data from an aircraft transponder, that must show the correct ID. So if PAW is feeding the transponder to enable the ADSB Out then the correct ID will always be shown.
The same as a glider fitted with Mode S and FLARM, FR24 can identify the aircraft by Mode S but FLARM may well be set to privacy but it won't help hide the aircraft ID from the FR24 or ADSBExchange networks.
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AFAIK you do not have to enter your Reg or CAA issued Hex ID into the PAW configuration data. PAW will happily enter a random Hex ident for you. So I'm guessing this is an in-built privacy measure if you choose not to enter identifying data.
Chris
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I was wondering if "crowd funding" might help?
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I was wondering if "crowd funding" might help?
Yes, yes and yes
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Regarding privacy (via the OGN), it follows the same rules
You must register, and set your permissions
Default is not to be identified
Thx,
Lee
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Lee
I haver just had a look at the OGN list of ground stations, currently 140 not all working.
I assume you are in touch with the OGN people, any idea much would it cost to finance the existing
network?
regards
Mike
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AFAIK you do not have to enter your Reg or CAA issued Hex ID into the PAW configuration data. PAW will happily enter a random Hex ident for you. So I'm guessing this is an in-built privacy measure if you choose not to enter identifying data.
Chris
Chris, as you're probably aware, that's fine if you aren't running a transponder/ADSB, but if you are, PAW needs to run your correct ICAO Hex to be able to filter out your own signal. Accepting that the point of the post is about privacy, we would nevertheless always 'suggest' running your proper ID.
Regards
Peter
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Lee
I haver just had a look at the OGN list of ground stations, currently 140 not all working.
I assume you are in touch with the OGN people, any idea much would it cost to finance the existing
network?
regards
Mike
Hi Mike
We are working on the documentation to install a new site which will be available soon.
Every site will be somewhat bespoke in the physical implementation but the electronics and hardware parts , should be about £280.00 for a new installation and about £120-160 to upgrade an existing OGN site depending whether a new Pi, power and case are required.
This of course doesn't include the labour for procuring, building and putting up which I hope will be a labour of love and putting something back to the community.
I don't know what you mean by how much would it cost to upgrade the existing community? but I hope that this will help you and others dimension the costs.
We are hoping that regional champions will emerge to put up a few new antennas in their area to augment the existing OGN network. If you can't do this then perhaps you can be a fundraiser in your club. Each new station installed will provide 30KM of protection as it were for the benefit of the flying community nationally both gliders and powered aircraft.
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What are the R-Pi requirements for a PAW/OGN station?
I have/know of a couple of redundant original Pis left over from the shield days that I could donate to a PAW/OGN station being considered at my airfield.
Would they have enough grunt or is it all Pi 2 now?
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Rob,
Original OGN will run on a Pi1, but the OGN rebroadcast via PAW Bridge uses much more processing power, so Pi2 is the recommended board.
Regards
Peter
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Thanks.
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Is there a guide somewhere to opt-in to the OGN with a PilotAware unit?
I understand that when we choose "Register a Device" we then select OGN, but after this what is the Devide ID? I'm guessing Registration is simply the aircraft reg? Also is the Competition field relevant?
My biggest concern is only registering the PilotAware unit, so if the other shareholders fly without my PilotAware unit I haven't opted the aircraft as a whole into the OGN.
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My biggest concern is only registering the PilotAware unit, so if the other shareholders fly without my PilotAware unit I haven't opted the aircraft as a whole into the OGN.
There is no obligation to register in order for you to see OGN traffic. Registration just brings some additional 'benefits' which may or not be of interest.
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Ahh ok, I thought this allowed glider traffic using the service to see my aircraft too? Which if is the case surely it's better to have them able to see you too.
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Chris,
The main point of registering with OGN is to allow your aircraft to be identified via the OGN servers as a powered aircraft on for example 'spot the gliders'. (As a consequence of data sharing, you will also show up on sites such as FR24.)
This allows gliding sites to see you on their big screen displays but will NOT allow individual gliders to see you directly. Gliders will only see PilotAware if they are PilotAware equipped, which for normal gliders is unlikely due to PAW's higher power demands. This was the whole point of the OGN/PAW integration project.
Remember that under the rules of the air, we (powered aircraft) are obliged to give way to gliders, which we can't do if we can't see them.
Regards
Peter
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I would add to this, that in addition to being visible on FR24 / Glidernet, I think the most important feature is the Search and Rescue capabilty.
OGN runs a database which records registered devices for a period of up to 24 hours, so in the unlikely event you go missing for whatever reason, your ID can be looked up in the SAR database and your last known movements can be obtained.
I must admit, I have thought about the idea of having a PANIC button, which sends a new message over P3I indicating you are in trouble, this seems very useful in conjunction with the SAR facility in alerting any listening stations, or the central server.
Thx
Lee
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Sounds like the DSC button on my boat radio :)
Or you could just use 121.5 (and listen to the yanks tell you you're on Guard)
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Hi Freinds
I have a qwestion ...
I perform a registration on OGN server using my PAW Id F2AFEF
My device is not shown on list http://ktrax.kisstech.ch/cgi-bin/flarm-txrange.cgi?command=who
Did i made something wrong ?
Best Regards Andrzej
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Hi Freinds
I have a qwestion ...
I perform a registration on OGN server using my PAW Id F2AFEF
My device is not shown on list http://ktrax.kisstech.ch/cgi-bin/flarm-txrange.cgi?command=who
Did i made something wrong ?
Best Regards Andrzej
Hi Andrzej,
Please bear in mind that we have only performed a trial so far of the OGN-R over P3I
Have you read this here ?
http://forum.pilotaware.com/index.php/topic,885.0.html
Also there is an article in the LAA Magazine which describes what we have done.
I presume you have a glider site near to you ?
What we really need, is help from our community, to roll this out as
- enhancements to existing OGN receivers
- new OGN receivers with OGN-R over P3I added
Thx
Lee
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Hi Lee
Yes , we have glider site covering by 2 OGN recivers close to EPSD . ( Szczecin Poland )
So if i understand vell we need to upgrade those receivers to compatibility with PAW ? .
I will be monitoring Yours progres with that and waiting for solution to upgrade .
About my question .. until this time Registration PAW to OGN netowrk is not working ?
BR
Andrzej
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About my question .. until this time Registration PAW to OGN netowrk is not working ?
Hi Andrzej
This is not a registration issue.
This database is telling you that your system has not been received by any groundstation.
This wil be the case until we have more proliferation.
If you would like to get involved in supporting this, please email ogn@pilotaware.com
Thx
Lee
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Hi,
Will there be a map showing the approximate coverage of the installed OGN-PAW stations so we know where to expect uplink and where not?
I guess it would be possible for a web page to show the live status of each base stations too 8)
Cheers
Deker.
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Hi Deker
If a base station is OGN-R so is uplinking data it is prefixed PW such as PWBidford
We will also be letting you know if you are picking up any and how many ground stations so you won't have to guess.This will be in a future release.
The game now is to get as many new stations out there as soon as possible.
Any offers?
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Hi Keith,
As Ive said before, I will have a unit based at my home.
Just awaiting instructions!
Regards Brian
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Hi,
Will there be a map showing the approximate coverage of the installed OGN-PAW stations so we know where to expect uplink and where not?
I guess it would be possible for a web page to show the live status of each base stations too 8)
Cheers
Deker.
Decker,
To see coverage, check www.flarmrange.onglide.com . Pretty impressive coverage from some of the better positioned sites - e.g. Stoke.
Regards
Peter
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Decker,
To see coverage, check www.flarmrange.onglide.com . Pretty impressive coverage from some of the better positioned sites - e.g. Stoke.
Regards
Peter
Hi XFP,
I was thinking more along the lines of a map showing the location of the operational GGNPAW base stations and were the gaps need to be filled.
ATB
Deker.
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Hi Keith,
As Ive said before, I will have a unit based at my home.
Just awaiting instructions!
Regards Brian
Hi Brian
Yes you are on the list. I have ordered 25 OGN Co linear antennas from China which will take a few weeks to get here.
We are in the process of automating the software so that its easier to set up a ground station from scratch. We have about 40 sites to work on at the moment.
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Decker,
To see coverage, check www.flarmrange.onglide.com . Pretty impressive coverage from some of the better positioned sites - e.g. Stoke.
Regards
Peter
Hi XFP,
I was thinking more along the lines of a map showing the location of the operational GGNPAW base stations and were the gaps need to be filled.
ATB
Deker.
Hi Decker
This is easy at the moment there is only
Bidford
Wellebourne
Husbands Bosworth
Shennington
Corby
so the map is at the moment sparse.
We will be updating the OGN map as they come on stream
A site will be pre-fixed PW if it is an uplink.
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Brilliant to see several gliders near Shennington on PAW today - great work guys! ...
(http://i.imgur.com/0rtZnOnl.jpg)
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Hi chaps
I am on holiday at the moment but when I get back on 20th June I will be exhorting you all to increase the reach an replicate what we have at Shennington
Watch this space and be the first one on your block to make history.
Keith
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Does that mean the Chinese antennas have arrived?
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Hi Ian
Yes they have arrived in U.K. But are being help at ups until I return next week
Keith
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Understood... I think 😀
Is there any value in putting a OGN package together for the web shop. Pi, SD Card, case, PSU, Bridge, and the two antenna? Leaving the mount to the users?
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Hi Keith,
Any news or availability of tech instructions for UP OGN yet?
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Hi
Yes nearly there. I have received 25 colinear antennas from china and will be collecting 20 or so bridges on Monday
The sw is now available and easily configured.
The instructions should be available next week
Regards
Keith