PilotAware
British Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Admin on July 17, 2016, 03:13:51 pm
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I am looking for users with access to Flarm, preferably Flarm Mouse.
I am in the process of performing an integration of Flarm into PilotAware, and I think I pretty much have this working.
The way this works is by having an RS232 into PilotAware from a Flarm unit, which will provide the Navigation tool with data from
- P3I (PilotAware)
- ADS-B
- Mode-S
- Flarm
all help gratefully received
Thx
Lee
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Hi Lee
I'm just in the last stages of putting a PowerFlarm Core in (already ADS-B out).
Not sure if PFC will work with what you describe as it sounds like the feed into PAW is what would normally go to the display? But happy to help if I can.
Just a thought:- This would also be an expensive way to get FLARM targets? I think a PF mouse is £450? OGN are allowed to decode the Flarm signal and display it on the internet cant we just decode and display without transmitting anything in the same way OGN do? I honestly cant see why Flarm would object as PAW will not have the capability required by a Glider?
regards
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PS
It might be good if FLARM could also process PAW targets? If there is a big enough installed base it might be a good option for the FLarm customer base in the UK?
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Hi Julian
Many thanks for the offer.
Not sure if PFC will work with what you describe as it sounds like the feed into PAW is what would normally go to the display? But happy to help if I can.
That is correct, the intention here is really to give an upgrade of a Flarm Mouse, to something equivalent to
Flarm
ADS-B
Mode-S
P3I
Butterfly Connect
Multiple Tablet Connection
Voice Audio Warning
so a £200 upgrade for something that is probably Approx £2000 for a PFC ?
So you are quite right, you would lose your Flarm display - but of course you would benefit from having an integrated display in SkyDemon/RunwayHD/EasyVFR/AirNavPro.
It might be good if FLARM could also process PAW targets? If there is a big enough installed base it might be a good option for the FLarm customer base in the UK?
I hope that is the logical conclusion
Thx
Lee
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Hi Lee
Just to follow on with this and bearing in mind the recent email exchange with Rob Weijers yourself and me regarding the flarm pin code in EVFR, will the fact that different pin codes being used in the various nav systems have any effect on their ability to see flarm targets in this way. I think this was Rob's concern that if the pin is set to 6002 for the correct messages from PAW then a flarm unit will not "talk" to EVFR. as it requires pin 6001.
Sorry if i'm muddying the water but this had occurred to me prior to this post.
Regards
Alan
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I would be surprised if FLARM messages were just passed through the PAW. I would have thought the PAW will take what it wants from the FLARM connection and append it to the existing strings of messages. That way it would not matter what Pin FLARM required as it would not be 'talking' to the navigation software?
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Hi Alan
Just to follow on with this and bearing in mind the recent email exchange with Rob Weijers yourself and me regarding the flarm pin code in EVFR, will the fact that different pin codes being used in the various nav systems have any effect on their ability to see flarm targets in this way. I think this was Rob's concern that if the pin is set to 6002 for the correct messages from PAW then a flarm unit will not "talk" to EVFR. as it requires pin 6001.
Sorry if i'm muddying the water but this had occurred to me prior to this post.
Lets be clear on the reason for the 'personality' pin code.
Firstly this only affects bearingles targets
EasyVFR uses some *enhanced* syntax for bearingless targets in order to produce the banner containing the relative vertical separation and threat level (Red/Amber/Green)
This same syntax is not handled in SkyDemon in the same manner.
So in order to support these two alternative message formats in SkyDemon and EasyVFR (and possibly more in the future), the value of the pin code is used to format the message specifically for the NAV tool.
This will not affect the Flarm-IN interface, I will post separately on this
Thx
Lee
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I would be surprised if FLARM messages were just passed through the PAW. I would have thought the PAW will take what it wants from the FLARM connection and append it to the existing strings of messages.
This is correct, the Flarm messages are parsed and entered into a common database, in the same way that I use a common database for Mode-S/ADS-B/P3I.
This common databases is then used to send messages to the NAV tools.
In addition I am using the GPS NMEA messages, which means you can unplug the GPS dongle, with a Flarm-IN connection
That way it would not matter what Pin FLARM required as it would not be 'talking' to the navigation software?
A bit of confusion here I think, Flarm knows nothing about a pin code.
The pin code is used to connect to a WiFi Butterfly Connect, which converts WiFi<->RS232
Thx
Lee
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By adding a FLA*M mouse to PAW we will see FLA*M targets. Will the FLARM mouse provide mode a/c bearingless targets alerts? Or have they not marstered tend that yet.
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Hi Richard,
I don't know why nobody has answered your query yet, so will try to do so! Unfortunately, the simple answer is NO - AFAIK the only Flarm devices which claim to decode and provide transponder alerts are the PowerFlarm Core (Flarm + ADSB + Mode C/S - c.£1350 plus display & delivery) and the Air Avionics TRX 1500 (Flarm + ADSB + Mode S - c.£1500 plus display & delivery). Both of these also need specific interfaces to connect them to a nav display. Neither claim to provide Mode 'A' cover (which from the difficulty we are experiencing trying to get reliable results for Mode 'C', I can fully appreciate).
What Lee is trying to do WRT Flarm is collect already decoded data from the output of the user's existing Flarm receiver (which is perfectly legal within Flarm's terms and conditions as you own the Flarm unit) and use PilotAware to filter and combine this data with PilotAware's own data before presenting the combined results to your Nav device.
For 'existing' Flarm owners, this will add Mode S (and C if/when we get it running), ADSB and P3i, plus a way of WiFi-ing the data onto a Nav System and as Lee said above access to multiple tablets and voice alerts. Hopefully this will also increase the uptake of PilotAware by existing Flarm users - allowing us to see them via P3i.
For PilotAware Users who don't yet have Flarm, they will effectively be able to add full Flarm Transmit and Receive to an existing PilotAware / Nav System installation for the cost of the most basic Flarm Unit (currently the basic Flarm mouse - available from about £450).
Hope this makes things clearer.
Regards
Peter
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Thank you Peter yes all makes sense now. I have considered F*ARM befor PAW came along but now I'm sticking to PAW but have considered add in the F*ARM mouse as Lee said in another post that it can also provides the GPS for PAW too
Thank you
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Hi again Richard,
Yes that's correct, PilotAware would also be able to take its GPS data from an attached FLARM device in the same way that our NAV devices currently take this information from PAW, but hold fire just now until Lee gets a chance to get everything working at the PilotAware end.
Regards
Peter
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but hold fire just now until Lee gets a chance to get everything working at the PilotAware end.
Willco
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Hi All
I'm just wondering if this is now starting to get over priced.
So lets say I want PAW and Flarm. £200 PAW, £450 FLARM, SD say over 5 years £495, Cheap tablet £120, PAW software over 5 years £76 = £1,341.
May as well just buy a FLARM unit and get Modes S + C + ADS-B + FLARM all with free upgrades each year.
Might just be loosing the plot here! Only makes sense if someone already has some of the parts.
Regards
Julain
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Hi Julian
I think that you have answered this yourself. Folks already have the tablet and navigational software so should not be bought into the price mix. If you buy F*LARM you will not get PAW which will become a de facto standard as we move forward.
However the choice is obviously yours. The PAW price in the equation is £159.99 plus VAT to pull it all together. Sill great value we think?
Regards
Keith
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Julian,
I can understand your concern, you have just spent £1300+ buying and fitting a PowerFlarm Core to your aircraft which won't be able to see all those who have instead gone down the cheaper PilotAware route. Been there got the tee-shirt and sent it back due to problems I don't want to go into here. That won't however stop me going down the FlarmMouse route if I choose to do so.
Unfortunately, trying to justify your expenditure by making PAW seem much more expensive than it actually is won't help you see PAW equipped aircraft. Your financial argument quickly falls apart because most of us these days already choose to run some form of tablet based navigation system, irrespective of whether or not we choose to install an aircraft avoidance or awareness system, so you really can't justify taking the cost of the navigation system or tablet into account. Many PFC users in fact spend a fair bit more specifically to present data from their systems visually onto SD or their favoured tablet based Nav system.
What Lee is trying to do at the request of PAW and Flarm users is come up with a workable solution without illegally decoding Flarm's Collision Avoidance Protocols, which will allow Flarm users to see us for a minimal cost if they already run a tablet based Nav system and allow us to legally see them at minimum extra cost if we choose to do so.
I don't mean to be offensive or negative in any way, but as Keith says we all have a choice - yours is no more right or wrong than anyone else's - just different.
I for one will continue to await developments
Regards
Peter
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I chose the PowerFlarm route in the end and it works very well for me as I operate in an area with lots of glider activity.
Out of the box, fitted new batteries and works first time. Self contained with no trailing antennae cables.
I have a built in GPS in the aircraft which does not have WiFi but happily feeds the Transponder so I have ADS-B out as well. A tablet with the associated software would be additional expense for me and a device i don't need.
Bottom line is people have a choice and you pays your money.
Each to their own.
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Hi Alan,
Well said. My point was that Lee is trying to give those who have already made their choice an opportunity to combine systems at a minimum cost. I did try PFC but due to a weird fault it just didn't work the way it should, so I felt I had to bale out before the 'warranty' expired and I might have been left holding a very expensive baby. It won't stop me going down the FlarmMouse route to let me see local gliders once Lee gets things fully sorted.
Regards
Peter
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A tablet with the associated software would be additional expense for me and a device i don't need
I thought that you said in an earlier post that you use an IPAD and RunwayHD, so adding these to the cost is surely not at all fair in your cost roll up comparison
I fly an Europa with a AVMAP EK V as my main GPS display and I also had the PilotAware running with a GPS Dongle and therefore providing the GPS position information and traffic alert to RunwayHD on an iPAD.
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Morning All, Where are we now with FLARM and PAW integration? I have all the bits for both ready for an upgrade when I have time - and I have am now looking at a medically induced period where I can get on with upgrading things. I do not have the comprehensive computer skills but the hardware. How many aerials will be needed now? So far I am looking at 4 GPS (Skymap 3, Kanard, PAW, FLARM - SkyDemon on the Nexus 7 is internal) Dipoles for FLARM and PAW etc and it's getting to be a bit crowded and will need some complicated knitting to fit the all in to a reasonable planed area. Can the PAW and FLARM collection be combined? Will the helpful little FLARM indicator still be able to be used? Time on my hands but would like to plan and layout components soon.
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This is still in beta, but basically you need a USB-RS232 dongle such as a PL2303, this needs the RX/TX connected to the TX/RX respectively of the FLARM mouse RS232 Serial connector
The PAW usb port needs setting to 'Flarm-in', and the specific baud rate.
Using the flarm in means you do not require a GPS dongle as flarm will suppy GPS data with its traffic data.
At some point soon we will try to produce an appplication note
Thx
Lee
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This is still in beta, but basically you need a USB-RS232 dongle such as a PL2303, this needs the RX/TX connected to the TX/RX respectively of the FLARM mouse RS232 Serial connector
Lee
Hi Lee,
Would this lead work? It was previously recommended in the forum for connecting PAW to a transponder to provide ADSB out?
http://shop.clickandbuild.com/cnb/shop/ftdichip?productID=97&op=catalogue-product_info-null&prodCategoryID=293
I like the fact that it comes with the chip built into the USB end and a decent length cable with bare wires at the other end to fit an appropriate data plug for the FlarmMouse. This version has an 'additional voltage output' of '0v', but also comes in alternative versions with 3.3V or 5V alternative voltages. A bit pricier than others though.
Regards
Peter
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I think someone else has used one of these to connect to their transponder
May have been Andy Fell - wobblewing
Thx
Lee
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This is still in beta, but basically you need a USB-RS232 dongle such as a PL2303, this needs the RX/TX connected to the TX/RX respectively of the FLARM mouse RS232 Serial connector
The PAW usb port needs setting to 'Flarm-in', and the specific baud rate.
Using the flarm in means you do not require a GPS dongle as flarm will suppy GPS data with its traffic data.
Lee
Hi Lee,
Does the latest release 20160820 have the Flarm beta test function?
I fly with buddy who has powerflarm portable. I believe that RS232 is output via the rear RJ45 connector and would like to give it a try.
Thanks,
Deker.
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Hi Lee,
Does the latest release 20160820 have the Flarm beta test function?
I fly with buddy who has powerflarm portable. I believe that RS232 is output via the rear RJ45 connector and would like to give it a try.
Thanks,
Deker.
Yes it does
Thx
Lee
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Just a thought:- This would also be an expensive way to get FLARM targets? I think a PF mouse is £450? OGN are allowed to decode the Flarm signal and display it on the internet cant we just decode and display without transmitting anything in the same way OGN do? I honestly cant see why Flarm would object as PAW will not have the capability required by a Glider?
Not sure I can see an answer to this. i.e. whether FLARM can be decoded (only decode, not encode) like OGN do ?
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Just a thought:- This would also be an expensive way to get FLARM targets? I think a PF mouse is £450? OGN are allowed to decode the Flarm signal and display it on the internet cant we just decode and display without transmitting anything in the same way OGN do? I honestly cant see why Flarm would object as PAW will not have the capability required by a Glider?
Not sure I can see an answer to this. i.e. whether FLARM can be decoded (only decode, not encode) like OGN do ?
I think it is an agreement between OGN and Flarm that decoding is "tolerated" as the OGN is only used on the ground.
As soon as you put a decoder in an aircaft, then Flarm demand "their pound of flesh".
Deker
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I think it is an agreement between OGN and Flarm that decoding is "tolerated" as the OGN is only used on the ground.
As soon as you put a decoder in an aircaft, then Flarm demand "their pound of flesh".
Deker
If this is truly the case, who do they go after if I were to put one in my plane ?
OGN or me ?
This sounds so vague and without foundation.
Thx
Lee
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I think it is an agreement between OGN and Flarm that decoding is "tolerated" as the OGN is only used on the ground.
As soon as you put a decoder in an aircaft, then Flarm demand "their pound of flesh".
Deker
If this is truly the case, who do they go after if I were to put one in my plane ?
OGN or me ?
This sounds so vague and without foundation.
Thx
Lee
Hi Lee,
I might of read it on Flyer Forum, so could be just a rumor / opinion.
I was thinking more of the consequences of a commercial operator putting a decode only device on the market for airborne use.
Cheers
Deker.
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The point about using the flarmMouse is that you own the device which you have legally bought from FLARM or one of its licensed developers as a fully licensed FLARM unit and are therefore legally decoding received FLARM signals and merely using PilotAware as a 'conduit' to present them to your nav device - in the same way FLARM themselves advocate by using a 'Butterfly' (now marketted as 'Air Connect') RS232 to WiFi converter.
As you have bought the decoding licence from FLARM (albeit through a 3rd party developer), they would be hard pushed to prosecute you for using it in the way it is intended. Just my opinion of course.
WRT using an OGN feed in the plane, I would view this in the same way I do FR24 - connection difficulties, time delays and positional innacuracies make this a definite 'No No' for me! I want my traffic notifications to be 100% reliable!
Regards
Peter
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The point about using the flarmMouse is that you own the device which you have legally bought from FLARM or one of its licensed developers as a fully licensed FLARM unit and are therefore legally decoding received FLARM signals and merely using PilotAware as a 'conduit' to present them to your nav device - in the same way FLARM the,selves advocate by using a 'Butterfly' (now marketted as 'Air Connect') RS232 to WiFi converter.
As you have bought the decoding licence from FLARM (albeit through a 3rd party developer), they would be hard pushed to prosecute you for using it in the way it is intended. Just my opinion of course.
WRT using an OGN feed in the plane, I would view this in the same way I do FR24 - connection difficulties, time delays and positional innacuracies make this a definite 'No No' for me! I want my traffic notifications to be 100% reliable!
Regards
Peter
Hello Peter,
I was responding to a comment by jullian and replied to by Ianfallon up the thread. He was questioning the need to buy a licenced Flarm mouse at £450 when apparently OGN can use their own (cheap as chips) hardware / software to decode only. i.e why cant PAW decode only (not transmit), hence my original answer / supposition.
I don't think there is any doubt that Flarm would be very happy if we all go out and buy a mouse, but would unleash the dogs if this function was enabled on PAW with our own 'unofficial' combination of firm/hardware. .
Back on thread :) , I'm hoping to connect my paw to a friends FowerPlarm, if successful I'll report back.
Keep up the good work, PAW is a brilliant system BTW.
Deker
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What would it do to the cost of PAW if a licensed flarm decode was integrated (perhaps as an optional plugin?) without the need for a FLARM hardware?
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No idea RG, but FLARM do sell an OEM module to be incorporated in other kit. I suspect they would push you into this method rather than letting you develop your own FLARM Rx/Tx.
Some posters seem to forget that OGN is not in competition with FLARM, PilotAware, though not functionally a direct competitor, will take business away from FLARM products. Why on earth would they give PilotAware a free and easy ride?
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even just an Rx would be good...
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Hi All,
Working the stand at the LAA rally this weekend with Lee. Lots of interest in this aspect from users/ potential users who fly from/near gliding sites - all very interested in 'legal' solution(s). We will keep you informed.
Regards
Peter
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even just an Rx would be good...
And unfortunately threatened with legal action by Flarm for doing so :(
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When connecting Flarm mouse to PAW, can the normal Flarm display also be connected and functioning ?
thanks, Alan
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I don't have a display to test it, but the splitter cable would appear to allow a screen to be connected.
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Alan/Ian
No reason why not. You just need an extra 'splitter' to parallel off the feed to PAW via the USB / RS232 cable. I would have had mine up and running (with LXNav Flarm Display) by now but wired the cable incorrectly :( and have been waiting for an adapter which arrived this morning, so hope to try it out again tomorrow. I will post and let you know how I get on.
Regards
Peter
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Hi All,
Been on an extended flight down to Hexham today (including several stopoffs) so took the opportunity to pop into Millfield gliding field to test / have a chat about my FLARM/PAW integration. It was a beautiful day and they had lots of visitors on a 'flying week' so loads of gliders and two tow planes to track. I also used the flarmMouse to provide GPS input to PAW. Had to pull the plug on the audio as I couldn't hear the radio for the number of alerts on final, but system is obviously working, with both PAW and the LX Nav FLARM LED display connected via a splitter.
Made a really good contact for FLARM/OGN, who I will keep in touch with and I will continue testing.
Regards
Peter
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Hi Peter,
I tried this weekend the PAW with following add. connections:
FlarmMouse connected to the PAW (USB<->RS232) -> FLARM-IN
FlarmLED display connected to the PAW (USB<->RS232) -> dynon traffic
I have not get any indication on my LED for ModeCS and ADSB but SkyDemon was showing bearingless targets with red ring, GPS and TX/RX indicator where working on the Flarm LED. Looks for me that the PFLAA/PFLAU is not passed correctly with dynon traffic.
How do you exactly connect the splitter?
Regards,
Serge
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Hi, next week I plan to try and integrate an LX RedBox FLARM unit with a PAW box for use on a new aircraft.
To be clear, I plan to take serial data from the display port of RedBox and connect via RS232/USB adaptor to one of the USB ports on the PAW. (replacing existing GPS dongle). Do I need to do anything in software to get FLARM aircraft showing on my iPAD SkyDemon nav display, or does it "just work" ?
thanks for help,
Alan
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Hi,
Hope to be testing my PAW with a Powerflarm tomorrow.
I've been looking for the setup, but as far as I can tell it will be:-
Plug USB-RS232 unit into USB port 3 (top right) in place of the Ublox GPS. (Other end to the flarm data out and 0V)
In the config page, set port 3 to 19200 baud and flarm in.
Anything else?
Use in the normal way.
Cheers,
Deker.
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Yes this sounds right
With a flarm input you can omit the gps dongle, as flarm will provide the gps,
Although, have to say, the flarm gps does not seem as effective as the ublox
Thx
Lee
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I plugged mine into my unused Port 1, and set this up for FLARM in. This means I can quickly change back to paw GPS if I need to. But if you are using FLARM and keeping a separate PAW GPS dongle or mouse, you need to configure your FLARM device to output FLARM data only to PAW, not FLARM data and navigation data, or your PAW will be getting GPS data from 2 different sources at the same time, which might cause potential conflict.
Regards
Peter
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Hi, next week I plan to try and integrate an LX RedBox FLARM unit with a PAW box for use on a new aircraft.
To be clear, I plan to take serial data from the display port of RedBox and connect via RS232/USB adaptor to one of the USB ports on the PAW. (replacing existing GPS dongle). Do I need to do anything in software to get FLARM aircraft showing on my iPAD SkyDemon nav display, or does it "just work" ?
thanks for help,
Alan
Alan I am very interested in your use of the FLARM red box. Please keep us updated on your progress of integrating PAW.
The display output is from an rj45 plug and a lead is suplyed. Can you plus it straight into the pilotaware (Rasburry Ethernet rj45? This is a question for lee. Or can it be made to do so as it would save a USB port and be more plug and play
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Richard, you will need to use a USB TO RS232 lead. FLARM uses the RJ45 as a serial port, not LAN, like the RPi.
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Harrr, yes it does, thanx Ian.
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Looking at rj11 to usb for connecting the FLARM redbox to PAW, would the cable be a straight in connection or is there a chipset required for the conection? There seems to be a few different chipsets available, which one would it be?
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I used one of these
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/351825013804
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Ian thank you.
The chipset in the USB plugs, what do they do? As there are different ones. Looking at the wiring for the rj11 plug to a sub D on the FLARM LX redbox, they are wired directly in (no chipset) this is for connecting to computer for updates. Can anyone give advice on this? Is it different for USB?
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I don't know anything about the FLARM LX Redbox.
The chipset converts RS232 signal into one that the PAW or PC can use via a USB port by creating a software coms port. FLARM devices use a 9 pin D connector, RJ12 or RJ45 depending hardware to output the FLARM signal from it's inbuilt RS232 chipset.
You can connect a FLARM device directly to a PC that has a Hardware Coms port (9pin D), or Via a lead like I linked to above. Hardware Coms ports are getting rare these days, and very unlikely to be found on a newish laptop, hence the need for a USB version.
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Ian,
Thank you for your reply. I will let the Forum know how I get on with it.
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Update on my Redbox to PAW integration.
I used the USB/RS232 cable from Farnell (USB-RS232-WE-1800-BT-0.0 CABLE, USB A - RS232, SERIAL CONVERTOR). Cheaper ones can be found on e-bay but I used this because previous reports that it worked ok with Flarm mouse.
Pin 1 from Flarm RJ45 is ground (white) and was connected to black on RS232 cable. Pin 3 from Flarm is Tx data (red) and was connected to yellow on RS232 cable. Pin 2 from Flarm is Rx data (black) and was connected to orange on RS232 cable.
In PAW configuration screen on iPad Port 2 was set to Flarm In and 19200 rate, (Redbox must use 19200 to talk to Flarm display indicator).
The gps signal seems to be working and PAW starts ok and talks to SkyDemon displaying ADSB aircraft and Mode C/S rings ok.
I don't seem to be seeing any Flarm traffic on the Skydemon display which is a puzzle but Flarm traffic is short range and in my home test set up it could be none are in range.
Continuing investigation.
Can anyone else confirm that the latest PAW software is seeing and displaying Flarm traffic from a Flarm receiver ??
regards
Alan
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15.10 22/10/16
Well just had some Flarm traffic pass close to me as seen on OGN but did not show on my Skydemon display or in PAW traffic screen. So it seems that although I'm getting 19200 GPS data from Flarm box into PAW, the aircraft data is not being seen/recognised by PAW. I have checked using "Flarm tool" that the Flarm box is set to send "Navigation and Flarm" data at 19200, so that seems to be correct, and PAW is set to "Flarm in" at 19200.
Now I'm stuck, don't know how to find why Flarm traffic not being shown via PAW on Skydemon.
Any ideas welcome ???
Alan
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Hi Alan,
You can see the RAW data sent from Flarm to PilotAware by doing the following
1. Go to Paw webpage 'Configure'
2. Check the tickbox NMEA
3. click Save
4. go to page Logging
This should stream the RAW messages coming from FLARM
*edit*:
Where are you based Alan, maybe you could meet up with another 'local' Flarm user ?
Thx
Lee
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Hi Lee
Thanks for help, attached is screen photo from iPad showing data logging screen. I don't know what to expect, I can see the gps sentences but are any of them flarm data ?
I'm located in Aylesbury and fly from Halton
I probably can borrow a portable flarm box from the club to get a consistent local flarm signal next week.
If you can give me any clue as to what the problem is, I would be grateful.
regards
Alan
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Hi Alan
These are all messages from FLARM, I am assuming you have the gps dongle unplugged for this experiment?
Ian Melville is in Thame, and I am in Thame Tue-Thu, we both have Flarm
Thx
Lee
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Correct, no gps dongle is connected directly to PAW, the data is coming from Flarm Redbox.
I didn't realise you were so close, happy to visit Thame if you are willing to help me.
thanks
Alan
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I've done a little more experimenting. Using a terminal program I have looked at data coming from Flarm box with different settings.
Pic 1 is Redbox box set for gps only output
pic 2 is Redbox set for FLARM only output
pic 3 is Redbox set for gps & FLARM
As you can see different strings are being sent and then as a composite in pic 3 so the box appears to be doing something like it should. Of course this late at night there is no Flarm signals active for me to receive so I don't know if string data changes upon receiving one or more Flarm signals.
What strings(s) is PAW looking for to display on SkyDemon output ? Are these pictures a clue as to the system behaviour, correct or not ?
regards
Alan
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Hi Alan,
Happy to be a FLARM target.
I have not had a chance to air test mine yet. On the ground I a yet to see a FLARM equipped aircraft, but I put that down to testing out of flying hours, and the fact that FLARM signal has nothing like the range you would expect, and any RF obstruction will reduce the chances of seeing FLARM traffic dramatically. I understand OGN stations us high gain antenna to get better range.
So a test would be useful for us both.
Screen shots look good, but I see no $PFLAA... messages which will be targets the FLARM unit has seen. Note PAW also generates $PFLAA... messages for P3i and transponder targets it has seen, but with only the FLARM RedBox connected to the terminal emulator, that should not be an issue.
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thanks Ian,
do you see the $pflaa string coming from your flarm box with no targets ? Which Flarm box are you using ?
I'm wondering if the Redbox variant actually outputs general target info, i.e the $pflaa string.
Being a 3rd party device (LX) they may do something different to actual Flarm and only output collision aircraft info. (just a thought). There is no detailed technical info on their web site so if I can't see if they specify this string from their device.
I guess I will have to try and get answer direct from LX about what actually comes out of their device.
Your offer to be a source is a good one and I'm happy to visit with my kit of bits !! When would be convenient for you ??
regards
Alan
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I'm using a FLARM mouse, and would not expect to see any $PLAA messages if there were no targets in range.
Documentation is hit and miss, I'm scratching my head regarding the mouse config. I found that by default it is set not to report any traffic more that 3km away, even though it may have received a radio signal. These glider boys like to get up close and personals!
I send a PM later with dates etc.
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OK Ian, it looks like it could be productive for both of us to get together with 2 active Flarms and find out if they really see one another.
I wait your PM, I'm pretty much free anytime.
I have sent e-mail to LX asking them to confirm O/P of LAA string from their box, let's see if they respond
regards
Alan
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Update on my Redbox to PAW integration.
I used the USB/RS232 cable from Farnell (USB-RS232-WE-1800-BT-0.0 CABLE, USB A - RS232, SERIAL CONVERTOR). Cheaper ones can be found on e-bay but I used this because previous reports that it worked ok with Flarm mouse.
Pin 1 from Flarm RJ45 is ground (white) and was connected to black on RS232 cable. Pin 3 from Flarm is Tx data (red) and was connected to yellow on RS232 cable. Pin 2 from Flarm is Rx data (black) and was connected to orange on RS232 cable.
In PAW configuration screen on iPad Port 2 was set to Flarm In and 19200 rate, (Redbox must use 19200 to talk to Flarm display indicator).
The gps signal seems to be working and PAW starts ok and talks to SkyDemon displaying ADSB aircraft and Mode C/S rings ok.
I don't seem to be seeing any Flarm traffic on the Skydemon display which is a puzzle but Flarm traffic is short range and in my home test set up it could be none are in range.
Continuing investigation.
Can anyone else confirm that the latest PAW software is seeing and displaying Flarm traffic from a Flarm receiver ??
regards
Alan
Alan
As I'm awaiting delivery of my USB RS232 from Farnel, I have been looking at the 9pin DubD plug on the end of the Power suply I purchased with the Redbox (http://lxavionics.co.uk/lxcart/index.php?route=product/product&path=102_111&product_id=362) This is what I'm using for the FLARM Redbox updated via my PC. I don't have a Serial Port on my PC so I'm using an old Serial to USB converter. OK this works for the FLARM Updates no problem.
Also supplied is a straight rj11 to 9pin Sub D this should be wired as described in the user manual BUT it is not and does not match the Diagram in the manual ??? This cable will not work for the updates of the Redbox It looks like the builder of the cable is color blind or the configuration in the manual is incorrect ?
Checking the wiring in first powered cable I described above, This is also different. The TX and RX are on different pins on the rj11 to the 9pin SubD. Both of the subD plugs use the same pins for G5 TX2 & RX3 it is the rj11 which are different.
This is very difficult to explain in this text But my main Question is can you check the Plugs you have been supplied and a comparison to wiring diagram in the manual.
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Richard, unfortunately I am not using any "supplied" cables, I just have the box and made my own Farnell USB to RJ11 connector cable.
I'm not sure what manual you are looking at but the one I got off the net seems correct;
pin 1 RJ11 (is white in mine) and goes to pin 5 RS232
pin 2 RJ11 is black and goes to pin 3 RS232 (from RJ11 RX) to RS232 Tx
pin 3 RJ11 is red and goes to pin 2 RS232 (from RJ11 Tx) to RS232 Rx
I have 2 different Flarm display leads (from a previous installation) with RJ11 each end and the colour code wires are completely different colours on each cable so you cannot go by colour you have to visually look and better still ohm meter up to find what pins 1 2 and 3 are connected to on the open end.
I'm not sure what you are actually seeing on the RJ11 to Dsub, but to work it certainly should be wired as a Xover i.e. pin 2 to 3 and pin 3 to 2
hope this helps,
regards
Alan
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Beware of miss identifying pins on the Flarm rs232. I have just 'blown' my Flarm unit and have had to send it back to the factory for repairs. Got a pin number wrong!!! OOPS
I have a Power Flarm all wired into the PAW but, right now getting nowhere.
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I have a Power Flarm all wired into the PAW but, right now getting nowhere.
Do you mean that Flarm is not providing its messages, or PilotAware is not able to receive/decode the messages ?
Thx
Lee
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Hi Lee, I do not know right now as I have not had the time to investigate properly. I suspect that either the 'repair' at the factory has left a fault on the PowerFlarm or I have not got the data rates set up correctly. I am suspicious as the PowerFlarm display now indicates a wiring fault and I have not altered any wiring in that part of the setup. I have to do the work in 'spurts' as the valley I live in is so narrow I have to go up onto the ridge to get signals.
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Hi Lee, I do not know right now as I have not had the time to investigate properly. I suspect that either the 'repair' at the factory has left a fault on the PowerFlarm or I have not got the data rates set up correctly. I am suspicious as the PowerFlarm display now indicates a wiring fault and I have not altered any wiring in that part of the setup. I have to do the work in 'spurts' as the valley I live in is so narrow I have to go up onto the ridge to get signals.
Not sure about the data rat on the powerflarm, but for the flarm mouse it is 19200
Thx
Lee
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Richard, unfortunately I am not using any "supplied" cables, I just have the box and made my own Farnell USB to RJ11 connector cable.
I'm not sure what manual you are looking at but the one I got off the net seems correct;
pin 1 RJ11 (is white in mine) and goes to pin 5 RS232
pin 2 RJ11 is black and goes to pin 3 RS232 (from RJ11 RX) to RS232 Tx
pin 3 RJ11 is red and goes to pin 2 RS232 (from RJ11 Tx) to RS232 Rx
I have 2 different Flarm display leads (from a previous installation) with RJ11 each end and the colour code wires are completely different colours on each cable so you cannot go by colour you have to visually look and better still ohm meter up to find what pins 1 2 and 3 are connected to on the open end.
I'm not sure what you are actually seeing on the RJ11 to Dsub, but to work it certainly should be wired as a Xover i.e. pin 2 to 3 and pin 3 to 2
hope this helps,
regards
Alan
Alan,
Thank you for your help. I'v sorted it now and all working OK. I'm at the same stage as you and need to find another FLARM device to test. Let us know how you go with your test.
The problem I had was confusion :o LX supply me with a rj11 to 9SubD This is wired the wrong way which made testing impossible. Now the USB to RS232 cable arrive simply checking the wiring and following your connection All is good.
Thanks again.
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Richard, Glad it is sorted.
I'm most uneasy about my set up. Today I monitored the data strings coming out of the Redbox looking for the $pflaa string that gives position of other Flarm aircraft. At the same time I monitored flarm aircraft on Open Glider Network to see when anyone come close. Well I'm on the edge of the circuit at Halton and today flarm aircraft were doing circuits so I had several movements varying between 5 Kms and 1 Km from me. ( I could see them visually). To my disappointment I did not see even one $pflaa string coming from the flarm box. Very strange, it is part of flarm protocol surely LX haven't missed it out !
I've sent email to LX asking the question but I'm really puzzled why it doesn't seem to work. Well Wednesday I guess we will have definitive test, so fingers crossed .
Alan
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Alan,
At home I'm nowhere near any FLARM traffic so testing at home for positive targets is a nonstarter., but looking at the strings in hypeterminal I see the $pflaa strings along side the GPS position strings but no actual traffic to report. Do you get the empty $pflaa strings?
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Hi All,
I'm just back from a week out in the Western Isles with the family (by boat unfortunately not plane), so just getting back to grips with the forum. Apologies therefore if I am repeating details already covered.
Before going away, I did several fairly substantive tests with my FlarmMouse equipped PAW against local flarm-equipped gliders/tow planes and also my CFI's PowerFlarm equipped flexwing. The tests provided positive 'on screen' (SD) moving flarm contacts though only from fairly close range (< 2Km) despite setting my FlarmMouse to display from maximum range. By deliberately flying extremely close to each other, the contacts with the CFI's aircraft also provided collision alarms on both our Flarm LED displays, so I can confirm that the PAW/FlarmMouse setup definitely works. I have no personal experience of the LX Flarm 'Red Box', but to be sold as 'Flarm' or 'Flarm Compatible' it has to use the standard Flarm pinout setup and data protocols, so has to supply exactly the same data as my (LX) FlarmMouse.
I must admit to falling into the trap at my first attempt to attach an RJ12 plug to the end of my Farnell USB/RS232 lead, of inadvertently connecting Flarm Tx to PAW Tx. The cables must be connected Flarm Tx to PAW Rx as you describe above Alan. You can also connect the Paw Tx wire (orange in the Farnell cable) to the Flarm Rx 'pin 2' in the RJ12 if you want to as this might be used later, but this is not required at this stage.
Remember to setup the correct PAW USB port to 'Flarm In and 19,200 Baud'. (If in doubt as to which port is which, they are as follows:
Port 1 Top left USB port (with the Ethernet port to the left).
Port 2 Bottom left USB port (with the Ethernet port to the left).
Port 3 Top right USB port (with the Ethernet port to the left).
Port 4 Bottom right USB port (with the Ethernet port to the left).
You must also configure your Flarm unit to provide either 'Flarm Only' Messages (if still using your PAW GPS) or to provide 'Navigation and Flarm' Messages if you want (or need) your Flarm unit to provide the GPS data to PAW.
Before testing, you should note that although the system worked pretty much as expected, I did find an anomaly relating to Flarm targets displaying the incorrect altitude and I also had an audio alert problem. I passed these on to Lee for investigation but haven't heard whether he has managed to sort these out yet.
Regards
Peter
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Richard, I'm most intrigued, no I don't see any empty $pflaa strings from my Redbox and I'm surprised I wouldn't have expected any with no contacts.
I do see $pflau strings which are part of the Flarm alarm protocol if I understand correctly.
The plot thickens !
regards
Alan
Alan,
At home I'm nowhere near any FLARM traffic so testing at home for positive targets is a nonstarter., but looking at the strings in hypeterminal I see the $pflaa strings along side the GPS position strings but no actual traffic to report. Do you get the empty $pflaa strings?
[/quote]
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Pete,
Would it be possible to post the content of you FLARMCFG.TXT file?
I am trying to set mine up and found that there is no complete set of documentation out there, and the tools focus on gliding.
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Alan
Sorry I mis-read the strings.... yes I only get $pflau string. It was late and I needed my bed...
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Pete,
Would it be possible to post the content of you FLARMCFG.TXT file?
I am trying to set mine up and found that there is no complete set of documentation out there, and the tools focus on gliding.
Morning Ian,
I used flarmTool downloaded from the Flarm Website at 'flarm.com'. It took a bit of time to get my head round as it is as you say designed for gliders. Rather than 'publish' my config, I will PM you a link and put it in my dropbox.
Regards
Peter
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I'm getting rapidly turned off by the thought of attaching a FLARM device to my PAW if this is representative of what I will have to go through.
I'm a simple soul. I just want to buy a box, plug it in, follow some simple set up instructions and fly a bit more safely!
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I'm getting rapidly turned off by the thought of attaching a FLARM device to my PAW if this is representative of what I will have to go through.
I'm a simple soul. I just want to buy a box, plug it in, follow some simple set up instructions and fly a bit more safely!
Hi Graham,
Please remember, as the thread says 'Beta Testers', this is not a productized form.
Do not be turned off by intermediate work, by the time this is announced as released, it will be polished.
Thx
Lee
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Hi All,
Couple of comments here.
Before testing, you should note that although the system worked pretty much as expected, I did find an anomaly relating to Flarm targets displaying the incorrect altitude and I also had an audio alert problem. I passed these on to Lee for investigation but haven't heard whether he has managed to sort these out yet.
Peter, certain I have now fixed the altitude reporting issue. Just needed to adjust the reported altitude by the present height.
I think I also fixed the audio issue, but may need to revisit that code, unless you are doing testing anytime soon, I can give you a new engineering release
Ian, Peter, default config settings:
Would it be possible to post the content of you FLARMCFG.TXT file?
Should I add an initialization to the Flarm settings. At the moment I simply use what the defaults have been set/stored.
Lets try to agree what settings need to be configured manually, and which automatically by PilotAware
Thx
Lee
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My Pilot Aware doesn't set anything in the FLARM Mouse. The transmit from PAW to Mouse is not connected. Should it be? I wasn't aware of any config being sent out to the Mouse. Not seen that method documented anywhere, but In theory it should be possible to write to the FLARMCFG.txt file from a PAW, then reboot the mouse for the settings to take effect. That would give PAW users less to configure ( better user experience). However the downside would be that glider pilots who adopt PAW, will still need to set their additional parameters.
I have been disappointed as to how bad the FLARM documentation is in regard to this config file.
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My Pilot Aware doesn't set anything in the FLARM Mouse. The transmit from PAW to Mouse is not connected. Should it be? I wasn't aware of any config being sent out to the Mouse. Not seen that method documented anywhere, but In theory it should be possible to write to the FLARMCFG.txt file from a PAW, then reboot the mouse for the settings to take effect. That would give PAW users less to configure ( better user experience). However the downside would be that glider pilots who adopt PAW, will still need to set their additional parameters.
I have been disappointed as to how bad the FLARM documentation is in regard to this config file.
Hi Ian,
at the moment PilotAware only receives from the Flarm device, but having seen some of the comments here such as limiting the reported aircraft based upon reported range etc, I am thinking there should be a minimum config sent from PilotAware to Flarm, to possibly include :-
- ICAO code, needed to stop double reporting at the receiver end.
- disable range restriction, however that is done.
any others ?
Thx
Lee
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I have been disappointed as to how bad the FLARM documentation is in regard to this config file.
Hi Ian,
Having looked at a few examples, it looks like it is taken directly from the dataport syntax.
So just google flarm dataport, and you should find a spec, looks like those commands match the config
Thx
Lee
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I have a copy of FTD-12 and the PFLAC section is almost empty. There is another section which refers to the Power FLARM example, where I can see some parameters that may match the PFLAC ones. Others can be found elsewhere in the document, but not definitive list. I was hoping to find which command are supported by each device, available options and ranges if applicable. Perhaps an explanation of what the less obvious ones do. I have just looked at FTD-14 which I think is what I was looking for
Looks like those making up cables would do well to wire-up both the TXD and RXD, even if one never gets used.
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I'm getting rapidly turned off by the thought of attaching a FLARM device to my PAW if this is representative of what I will have to go through.
I'm a simple soul. I just want to buy a box, plug it in, follow some simple set up instructions and fly a bit more safely!
Hi Graham,
As per Lee's post, you shouldn't have to worry about any of this - that is why we are testing it all in Beta to iron out any bugs or glitches and determine an effective setup procedure before 'Fl*rm Integration' officially goes live. Remember also that the addition of Fl*rm Integration is an optional extra for existing PAW users. It is a much cheaper option for existing Flarm users, with the spin-off that if they fit PAW, we will all be able to 'see' them at greater range via P3i, without any additional cost or equipment on our part.
From the significant testing I have done so far, I can certainly confirm as stated in my earlier post that the system produces moving 'on screen' flarm targets from gliders, tow planes and other flarm equipped powered aircraft, albeit at shorter range than we have come to expect from PilotAware P3i - with its much higher output power. Just needs a bit of 'polishing' before we go fully public.
Lee's intention in publishing this thread in the open public forums was to let everyone know we are progressing flarm integration and ask for assistance with Beta testing from existing flarm users as very few of the Development Team are currently Flarm equipped. If the 'public' discussion is causing concern or confusion, we should perhaps move the discussion and feedback back over to the 'Engineering' forum until we get things better resolved.
Regards
Peter
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Lee/Peter,
Thanks for the responses. I'm certainly not trying to criticise in any way the hard work that is going on in the background here, but as a certified aircraft owner I'm probably representative of a large proportion of the target market who, being used to having highly packaged installed solutions in their aircraft, naturally shy away from stuff littered all over the coaming strung together with cables - we don't have the luxury of being able to embed things out of sight and wire things in quite so easily or cheaply as the uncertified fleet.
You need to keep things simple for us luddites or you won't get the uptake.
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Hi Graham,
Point taken! Stick with us - we'll get there.
Peter
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Please don't hide this discussion! I am on the verge of buying a mouse to assist in the testing programme - my biggest challenge is finding a safe way to power the mouse from my 28V aircraft.
I'm also keen to find a way to make a box that holds all of the elements (GPS/mouse, WiFi dongle, ADS-B dongle, bridge, two aerials) and replaces the shoddy micro-USB power connector so that a neat one box solution exists with just one power cable visible that can easily be Velcro'd into almost any aircraft, permit or CofA.
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Please don't hide this discussion! I am on the verge of buying a mouse to assist in the testing programme - my biggest challenge is finding a safe way to power the mouse from my 28V aircraft.
I'm also keen to find a way to make a box that holds all of the elements (GPS/mouse, WiFi dongle, ADS-B dongle, bridge, two aerials) and replaces the shoddy micro-USB power connector so that a neat one box solution exists with just one power cable visible that can easily be Velcro'd into almost any aircraft, permit or CofA.
You and me are thinking alike. I currently have a prototype of such a case you mention it can be power from 12 to 28 v including fan cooling. You may be better with the LX FLARM redbox. If you can hang on a little longer for the testing of the redbox it may be a better soulution. I will post the info on the case info. thread latter when I get all the info together. It may help you.
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16.30 26/10/16
Well, first the good news, Redbox Flarm does O/P $pflaa string when it sees a target.
The problem (which I guess we already knew) is that flarm is very low powered at UHF frequencies and the aircraft flarm antenna polar diagrams (both vertical and horizontal) are horrible on most installations.
Today I borrowed a LX mobile flarm box and took it home. Immediately my redbox started to give $pflaa strings. I then walked a line of sight approx 200 meters to verify it still gave the string with some separation. So far all ok but still no sign of real aircraft.
I then moved my dipole flarm antenna outside the double glazed window and waited. To my delight I finally saw A/C in the circuit at Halton (4Kms). The contacts were very dependent on the source A/C orientation, with A/C facing the contact would be poor unless close, or tail on virtually nothing and contact would disappear. Side on was by far the best. Bearing in mind A/C were typically 1000 ft above me, when facing me the A/C flarm antenna was probably trying to look down through the engine.
To sumarise; it works, best range I saw was 5Kms but indication is very dependent on relative positions vert. and horiz., and orientations. It is likely that the flarm contact in practise will be pretty close before you see him although of course the flarm LED display will still give warning of imminent collision but it will be close !
It will be interesting to compare PAW results which should give better range contact indications because of the higher power. As always antenna positioning is everything for best results.
regards
Alan
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Hi Alan,
Great progress.
The release you have, will have the 2 issues Peter described earlier in the thread
1. The Altitude is show incorrectly
2. The Audio constantly repeats for FLARM traffic
I believe both of these are fixed internally
Cant help on the Flarm Range issue I'm afraid - unless you ask the gliders to install a PAW ;)
Thx
Lee
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Alan,
That's Really Good news... Thanks for taking the time in your tests. Ones I set everything in the aircraft I will also publish my findings too.
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Re the constant repeating for Flarm traffic. In my lash up of PAW and a PowerFlarm Core I get constant traffic audio for any traffic detected when tried at Enstone this afternoon. No Flarm traffic about at all that I know off. All traffic in range were from Oxford with the 'school' callsign.
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Hi Guys,
Alan - Glad to hear you are getting positive results with your flarm red box. I agree totally about the poor polar pattern from the standard flarmMouse setup. Due to the very short antenna and very low transmission power, the transmission pattern is very easily blocked unless the whole unit can be mounted up high in the clear away from any obstructions. After analysing performance on my initial tests (using the flarm range analyser at http://www.kisstech.ch/flarm-liverange/ ), I changed my flarmMouse antenna for a PilotAware P3i end-fed dipole (the same as the one supplied with PAW Classic). While still not perfect due to adjacent metalwork, this produced a significant improvement on the polar diagram during subsequent flights. Other alternatives such as a PilotAware P3i centre fed dipole and a P3i 1/4 wave on a ground plane beneath my pod will be tested when I get the time.
gvpsj - John, as reported above, we know about the constantly repeating audio messages from flarm targets. Lee and I have been working on a solution to this and also previous reports of excessive audio alerts from bearingless targets. I now have an engineering update from Lee, designed to sort this and the incorrect relative altitude display, ready to test but unfortunately weather was against me today. Bear with me, I will get the tests done as soon as practicable.
Please keep feeding back updates. They are all very helpful.
Regards
Peter
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Thanks, I will keep fiddling about with things ;-))
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Hi All,
Just to keep you updated, Alan G and I finally managed to get airborne this afternoon (both in the same plane as his is still being fixed) to test Lee's latest PAW/FLARM Integration 'Engineering Build' software. This proved useful as I could monitor the Traffic Screen while Alan watched his Nav System Chart (in his case easyVFR) from the back seat - and we had 2 sets of eyes to keep watch outside as well !!!
We initially headed over towards Loch Leven (nominally routing to Balado) hoping to pass close to gliders taking part in a competition from Portmoak, having seen several active in the area on OGN earlier in the day. Initially, we saw nothing on screen except airliners going in to Edinburgh - nice to see them as proper 'Jet' symbols on both SkyDemon and EasyVFR though! (as well as the Engineering version of PAW, I am also running the latest iOS beta test version of SD). Aircraft 'type specific' symbols will appear with the next release of PilotAware.
As we got closer to Loch Leven, I finally picked up a couple of flarm contacts on my traffic screen as we passed to the north of the Lomond Hills at about 3,000 ft. Alan immediately reported them visible on his Nav Screen well out over Loch Leven, then suddenly lots more appeared from behind the lee of the slope, where - being unable to achieve significant lift to clear the hill, they had been hidden from our approach by the terrain. Even this late in the day we counted at least 15 active gliders on screen at the same time with loads more on the ground at Portmoak. Once out in the clear, they were easily visible as moving 'Glider' symbols at up to 7Km and I was able to grab some screenshots (see below).
As anticipated, relative altitude reporting on the 'Nav' screen is now OK, however we still have a problem with constantly repeating audio alerts. I had a brief chat with Lee on the phone about this on my way home and have provided him with our track log and screenshots to aid investigation.
Regards
Peter & Alan G
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That's good news on the range Pete, though obviously the alerts still need sorting.
I notice that There are two with mode S and FLARM in the fur-ball. Lee would it be possible to incorporate the OGN database into PAW, updated with any other updates? That way the FLARM traffic will be decoded.
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Ian, my PAW - PowerFlarm set up in hardware is all together and portable (on the back of the Europa cockpit 'D' panel') - just needs 12VDC, an audio 'thing' and Flarm V3 display plugging in. You can 'borrow' it for testing if you want whilst my aeroplane and me are repaired.
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Morning Guys,
Apologies for the 'fur ball' Ian. I could have zoomed in to a better scale to show clear separation I suppose, but didn't think of it 'til later on. With so many aircraft active I was keen to keep my eyes outside the cockpit for potential 'non-transmitting' traffic, and was also busy speaking to a gyro (who didn't appear on screen) who reported inbound to Portmoak from the west to land and came on asking for traffic info but was either not heard by portmoak or more likely they were too busy launching to answer him. I chipped in with info from my nav screen and after obtaining visual confirmation of the level of traffic he thought better of it and reported that he would try again another day. Still no idea where he went !!
PAW also proved its worth on our trip back over the Forth at 5 - 6,000 ft, just outside the eastern boundary of the Edinburgh CTA. Listening on their frequency with listening squawk in operation, they called to advise us of an inbound CAT from the East which would pass overhead East Fortune at around our altitude. I was able to advise them we were just about to commence descent and traffic system equipped. Shortly after this, the jet appeared on screen and we watched it (visually) pass safely above us.
Here are another couple of glider screenshots to whet your appetite.
Regards
Peter
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Hi again all,
Forgot to mention. As stated a few posts higher up, I swapped my standard flarmMouse antenna for a standard PilotAware P3i end-fed dipole, which significantly improved the radiation (and presumably reception) pattern as per first attachment below. I was still concerned with the gaps to the right and rear, however, so tried simply reversing the flarmMouse on my pod coaming to move the antenna further away from the front strut and nearby wiring (thanks Alan G). The second attachment is the result. Speaks for itself really. I will test other alternatives in due course, but definitely worth a bit of thought about antenna type and placement when working at such low power levels. :)
Regards
Peter
p.s. Dave - hope you have plenty in stock for when the 'flarm' guys read this. ;)
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Quick update to all.
Identified the audio issue on flarm contacts, should now be fixed
Await further testing ....
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I notice that There are two with mode S and FLARM in the fur-ball. Lee would it be possible to incorporate the OGN database into PAW, updated with any other updates? That way the FLARM traffic will be decoded.
Ian, do you know how to obtain that database ?
Thx
Lee
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Massive change to my post. The database that I downloaded was FLARMs which we cannot use. I think you will need to contact OGN to see if the database is available.
Sorry raised hopes there :-[
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Quick update to all.
Identified the audio issue on flarm contacts, should now be fixed
Await further testing ....
Audio fix update downloaded - weather looking good, so hopefully will get it tested tomorrow and will report outcome.
Regards
Peter
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Hi All,
Alan G and I did another FL*RM/PAW Integration test flight today (well several actually). Unfortunately I had a technical problem with trying to run a PAW GPS in 'parallel' with FlarmMouse, which delayed things a fair bit and then a second 'fault' appeared, which looks like a cable fault with my flarmMouse, which severely limited the effectiveness of the later test flights.
The good news, however, is that we did manage to get gliders on screen again and the 'constant audio alerts' problem appears to be sorted by Lee's latest 'beta', though I would like the opportunity to try it further before releasing.
One step forwards and two steps back - that's often the way with development. I will now have to investigate the flarmMouse issue, which as I say is presenting very like a broken wire in the data cable!!! Fortunately, due to a mixup, I now have a spare unit I can use to test against. Watch this space.
Regards meantime
Peter
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Peter
I also took PAW and FLARM for a test flight yesterday, also having a fault. The GPS dropped connction. Once settled in to flight it appears it lost power dew to small vibration on takeoff and the 12v plug moving slightly in the aircraft 12v output. We had low cloud 1700 ft at best so returned to the club and had coffee. Further test are planned. >:(
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Hi All,
I managed down to the airfield yesterday to look for the fault in my FlarmMouse setup. I struggled initially until I ran the engine to top up the battery and the Flarm side suddenly died completely. On checking, I found that the main power connection had come loose at the circuit breaker, so that was probably what was affecting the results in our previous flights on Sunday.
After tightening the connection, I set off very late in the day to find gliders again - this time with FlarmMouse connected to a P3i centre-fed dipole inside the left knee hole of my pod as an experiment. By the time I arrived over Loch Leven, there were only a couple of gliders active, though I eventually managed to find 4. They only appeared on screen however when I approached fairly close, with them on my port side (next to the antenna) and much closer in than previously. Antenna type and placement is as expected extremely critical at such low signal strengths. I guess I need to go back and retry my previous antenna solution.
On the positive side, I did get some good screenshots (and flarm warnings) see below and have confirmed that the Flarm audio alerts will now work fine in the next release.
Regards
Peter
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Hi All,
Just thought you should know - Bearing in mind our successful 'glider tests' last weekend and again on Tuesday, I went down to the airfield on Friday morning with Alan to have another go at trying to improve my Flarm reception, but was devastated to find that we were totally unable to achieve a reliable GPS fix using the flarmMouse GPS. After several attempts both on the ground and in the air, we eventually gave up and resorted to restoring the PAW GPS, which I have discovered will NOT run if the USB/RS232 to the Flarm Mouse is also connected, even if the FlarmMouse is reconfigured to provide 'Flarm Data Only'.
We were therefore only able to undertake a test flight to confirm that PilotAware is still working reliably using its own GPS, but obviously had to abort any thoughts of testing flarm transmission or reception.
I discussed the problem with Lee on my way home from the airfield, and subsequently passed him my track logs, which reveal a definite problem with the GPS data from FlarmMouse. We are currently investigating further and considering the best course of action, - for example to allow PAW to operate using its own GPS, whilst continuing to obtain 'Traffic Data only' from the Flarm device.
We will keep you informed.
Regards
Peter
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Pete,
Can you give me more details on what the GPS issues is? I have been having issues with mine, taking up to 15 minutes to find any satellites, never mind a good fix. I assumed it was lack of clear visibility of the sky at home, but the GPS mouse on my PAW fixes in a few seconds. Not analysed the actual data it sends back to the PAW.
If the issue is with the GPS within the FLARM Mouse, rather than the data that is streams to the PAW then the FLARM Mouse is next to useless. It will not be able to transmit it's own position to other FLARM receivers, even if it can receive other traffic. If that is the case that there is a wider issue, I will be asking LX Nav to explain. I hope I have not brought a £500 ornament :(
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I have a PowerFlarm Core with its small GPS receiver and even in my narrow valley I get sat info to my SkyDemon very shortly after the PAW completes its initial check (voice check).
I do not have a GPS dongle or any other GPS receiver linked in so the info must come through PowerFlarm?
Sometimes the PAW check out takes a few minutes to complete but this is unusual so I ignore it.
Hope this info helps
John
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Hi Guys,
As reported previously, my system worked as expected on Tuesday, with gliders and other aircraft reported as before and all audio alerts as per design protocols, so all fine to that point.
I was however concerned solely that the flarm range had become very restricted and directional after I changed to a centre fed dipole inside the port side knee hole of my pod for the Tuesday flight. I suspected this had downgraded my flarm reception, so went back on Friday with Alan solely to retest with a PAW P3i endfed dipole fitted directly to the flarmMouse on top of the pod - as I had the previous weekend. The only other change I made was to re-site the flarmMouse slightly higher up on the sloping side of my pod and as close as possible to the front (nearest me) edge.
When I powered up and we tried to connect our tablets, they both (iOS 10/SD and Android/EVFR) kept losing signal and couldn't get a fix. I initially suspected a WiFi issue, but having reset it to known good values continued to get dropouts after takeoff, with SD displaying 'Seeking Satellites' banners before reconnecting for a few seconds then dropping out again and EVFR disappearing off to somewhere near the Azores - (presumably 0 degrees North and East) - where it goes when it can't get a GPS fix.
We therefore landed again, switched off the flarmMouse and disconnected the RS232/USB from PAW Port 1. Reconnected the PAW GPS Mouse in its own USB Port 3 (rather than Port 1 which is configured for Flarm-in) and PAW immediately got a solid gps fix, which held for the whole of an 80 minute circuit over Fife and back through Edinburgh Zone.
On analysing the track log for the short 20 minute flight, there is a definite pattern of GPS signal every second for 5 seconds, then no GPS signal for the next 15 seconds - repeating constantly throughout the flight on a 20 second repeat cycle - (thanks to Alan G for the initial analysis). Lee has also found the same pattern with another flarmMouse he put on long-term test at home and has e-mailed LXNav direct to elicit their help to identify the cause.
It's really strange, because I have now looked back through all my previous track logs since last Friday (some 5 hours of flight) and they consistently show regular $GPGGA data at 1 second intervals throughout all the flights, albeit with the very occasional 1 second gap, except for the one log from that first flight this Friday morning!!
In the meantime, as soon as I get a chance, I will swap over and try my 'spare' flarmMouse, but the airfield is presently 'closed due high wind' and will probably remain so for the next couple of days.
Please remember, that's why we test beta - We are already looking at options to improve reliability and we will get to the bottom of things, so don't lose faith.
Regards
Peter
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On analysing the track log for the short 20 minute flight, there is a definite pattern of GPS signal every second for 5 seconds, then no GPS signal for the next 20 - repeating constantly throughout the flight - (thanks to Alan G for the initial analysis). Lee has also found the same pattern with another flarmMouse he put on long-term test at home and has e-mailed LXNav direct to elicit their help to identify the cause.
I've had that as well, then suddenly it started working OK again after a reboot or two. In fact I posted about it here http://forum.pilotaware.com/index.php/topic,688.0.html
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Hi Ian,
Yes, I recall reading that but had forgotten about it. Did you manage to get/look at track logs (or do you still have access to them)? Might help with our investigations.
Regards
Peter
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Hope these work ?
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/57195501/2016-10-23_17-05.trk (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/57195501/2016-10-23_17-05.trk)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/57195501/2016-10-23_15-39.trk (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/57195501/2016-10-23_15-39.trk)
If you note from my post on the 23rd. I was using a Y lead so could see what was coming out of the FLARM Mouse and what was being logged on logging page of PAW with NMEA selected. The FLARM ???mouse output was fine, it was PAW that was playing up.
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Thanks Ian,
I have had a quick look at the first one which clearly shows regular $GPGGA gps sentences at 1 second intervals. I will have a further look later to see if there are any obvious gaps.
Regards
Peter
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The second one shows $GPGGA with no position data try from 15:52 onwards
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Hi again Ian,
Hmmmm, I see what you mean. That's worse than my logs. The first gap alone in your second log is more than 5 minutes long!!! Later gaps seem to be pretty much following the 'standard' pattern of 5 seconds data followed by 15 seconds gap, repeating, though with several significantly longer gaps. If our experience is representative, LXNav must surely be aware of problems in this area. I think we need to wait and see what Lee's e-mail gets back from them.
Keep in touch
Regards
Peter
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Hi Ian, Peter,
Please remember that the track files contain PilotAware interpretation of the GPS data.
To be accurate it is important to see the GPS data with which it is supplied, from Flarm
Ian, you said the following :-
I was using a Y lead so could see what was coming out of the FLARM Mouse and what was being logged on logging page of PAW with NMEA selected. The FLARM ???mouse output was fine, it was PAW that was playing up.
Can I confirm the following
1. Were you using a GPS dongle and Flarm, or just Flarm ?
2. When you say 'mouse output was fine', do you mean it reported a valid GPS message, or that data was being sent ?
I have been observing GPS messages sent from Flarm, reporting the GPS data is invalid, ie such as this where I have the Flarm Mouse conected directly to a PS/COM port connected to PuTTY :-
$GPRMC,080952.00,V,,,,,,,,,,N*7B
$GPGGA,080952.00,,,,,0,00,99.99,,,,,,*60
$PGRMZ,162,F,2*3F
$PFLAU,0,0,0,1,0,,0,,*63
V indicates invalid, A would indicate valid
Thx
Lee
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1. Only FLARM Mouse
2. GPS Data stream from mouse was valid GPS messages on Hype! Terminal, while I was concurrently seeing errors on the PAW (time stamp, no position data)
Do you know how to capture the data from the mouse so that I can save the text, Hype! Terminal is not very good at long sessions?
I will then set up the test again and see if I can capture both streams for comparison
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Hi Ian,
Do you know how to capture the data from the mouse so that I can save the text, Hype! Terminal is not very good at long sessions?
I will then set up the test again and see if I can capture both streams for comparison
recommend you use 'Realterm', it can capture to a file
Actually Ian, would this be more useful ....
[quote](14:03:41) GPS-NMEA : FLM-USB: $PFLAU,0,1,1,1,0,,0,,*63
(14:03:41) GPS-NMEA : FLM-USB: $GPRMC,140342.00,A,5223.53299,N,00127.46231,W,0.214,,071116,,,A*61
(14:03:41) GPS-NMEA : FLM-USB: $GPGGA,140342.00,5223.53299,N,00127.46231,W,1,08,0.90,73.5,M,47.4,M,,*7D
(14:03:41) NAV-TCP : NAV_SKYDEMON
$GPGGA,140341,5223.533,N,00127.462,W,1,08,0.9,73.5,M,47.4,M,,*63
$GPGSA,A,3,22,09,19,17,31,03,06,01,02,00,00,00,1.92,0.86,1.72*01
$GPRMC,140341,A,5223.533,N,00127.462,W,0.000,0,071116,,,A*78
$PFLAA,0,-10720,-6698,6438,1,406B21!BAW6B,145,,189,-7.6,9*02
$PFLAA,0,-20681,3646,11231,1,4CA855!RYR86UM,133,,239,0.0,9*2E
$PFLAA,0,26283,-14569,7650,1,4D0103!CLX837,148,,275,-9.1,9*5B
$PFLAA,0,-34398,9217,5508,1,3C66A5!DLH9FM,161,,211,10.7,9*18
$PFLAA,0,43929,-20484,8313,1,406D8D!EZY2296,152,,256,-10.7,9*35
$PFLAU,0,1,1,1,0,,0,,*63[/quote]
I can let you have an Eng-beta release which will capture the RAW FLARM Data (FLM-USB) from the flarm mouse
and the data output over TCP to the Navi device as above ?
Thx
Lee
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Do you know how to capture the data from the mouse so that I can save the text, Hype! Terminal is not very good at long sessions?
PuTTY will also capture serial port stuff to a file.
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Quite happy to run an engineering version. I can move it to a location with a good view of the sky.
IIRC I had an issue with RealTerm 2.0, cannot remember what it was :-[ PuTTY is worth a try.
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Hi All,
Just back from testing Lee's latest 'Engineering Beta' software. This now allows PAW to use its own GPS source (PilotAware Mouse in my case), with the FLARMMouse configured to supply 'FLARM Data Only', or if you prefer, to use FLARM to supply both GPS and FLARM Traffic Data.
This worked extremely well over 2 flights with gliders detected and displayed accurately on both flights and clear and effective audio alerts. As far as we are concerned, PAW/FLARM Integration is now 'good to go'!
A couple of today's screenshots attached.
Regards
Peter and AlanG
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Finally got to do some ground test of FLARM redbox today. Also by luck there was an aircraft with FLARM installed and in the air.
Just to report, with my (GIRPW) aircraft on the ground with PAW turned on and ADSB transponder turned off. The picture below was taken from my testing PAW from the club house. The picture shows my FLARM working at the top indicating 64ft which is correct for Sherburn, GSOBI was in the air and indicating 1225 ft from his FLARM and 1397ft from his mode CS. Which one is correct?
My test PAW is using the latest version, the one in the aircraft is using the FLARM engineering version for testing.
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Finally got to do some ground test of FLARM redbox today. Also by luck there was an aircraft with FLARM installed and in the air.
Just to report, with my (GIRPW) aircraft on the ground with PAW turned on and ADSB transponder turned off. The picture below was taken from my testing PAW from the club house. The picture shows my FLARM working at the top indicating 64ft which is correct for Sherburn, GSOBI was in the air and indicating 1225 ft from his FLARM and 1397ft from his mode CS. Which one is correct?
My test PAW is using the latest version, the one in the aircraft is using the FLARM engineering version for testing.
Hi Richard,
(sorry for late reply)
There was a height issue we observed when Peter was doing his testing - I believe we fixed this, just looking back through my software commits and saw this comment
Fixed Relative height issue with Flarm-In, 11/Nov/16
but difficult to know whether you have this same version because you say
My test PAW is using the latest version, the one in the aircraft is using the FLARM engineering version for testing.
the engineering version is always moving (by definition), so depends when you took the download
the fact that the FLARM is reading 1225ft, sounds like it is the barometric rounded to 25ft increments, but not adjusted for your own pressure altitude, this sounds like the issue Peter reported which was fixed.
Thx
Lee
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Hi Guys,
I thought I must have missed this post first time round, but reading it now, I remember meaning to go back to it as I had initially read it on my phone and was somewhat confused as I couldn't make out the screengrab clearly. Much clearer now reading it on a big screen.
Firstly, the top two entries show PilotAware (PAW) signals not FLARM signals - the entry in the 'Mode' column is a 'P'. not an 'F' and the Squawk column for both clearly shows the default 'PAWGRP'.
Looking at the 2 entries for G-SOBI, they both have different Hex Addresses - the one for his Mode S transponder is correct for the aircraft, the PAW one looks like a system derived default - i.e. the hex address has not been set in the PAW configure screen - hence why you have two reports from the same aircraft.
So we have 2 entries for the same aircraft with differing altitudes - the PAW one (1225 feet) is GPS derived, whereas the Mode S one (1397 feet) is derived from the Barometric Sensor in the aircraft transponder and then compared with the barometric sensor on your PAW bridge. The difference (172 feet) would normally be due to known inaccuracies with GPS derived altitude compared to barometrically derived altitudes, though 172 feet appears to be a bigger difference than I would normally expect. It's possible that the barometric sensor in your colleague's plane is 'out' compared to the one in your test PAW, which would also account for this. The PAW (i.e.GPS) derived altitude of G-IRPW by the way is actually showing as -64, i.e. 64 feet below your test PAW in the club house. Would that be about right - seems a bit out to me. You can check your PAW barometric setting on the ground against the airfield reference pressure, provided both units are at the same actual altitude and you remember to check QNH against QNH, though looking at the entry for G-CGWD, which is reporting as 3 feet below your position in the clubhouse, I would suggest that your unit is probably about right on this occasion.
Regards
Peter
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Sorry Peter - you are right, I was reading an 'F' where it is in fact a 'P'
So there is NO Flarm detection here.
Only PilotAware and Mode-CS, (unless this is not the most upto date eng release)
in any case
G-IRPW/ PAW at relative -64ft
G-SOBI / PAW at relative +1225ft (GPS Comparison)
G-SOBI / ModeC at relative +1397ft (Barometric Comparison)
It would hae been good to know what PilotAware was reporting on the front page for its Barometric reading, and how that compared to the QNH on the day.
Thx
Lee
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Lee/Peter,
Sorry for the contusion over the "P" & "F" I have just booked an appointment at the local opticians Results to follow......
All your comments have been noted. GSOBI fly's very regular I will try to repeat the situation and record more Info.
Lee, What is the best way to capture the data from my FLARM redbox when flying for looking at when landed to see if the info is being received correctly to PAW? Currently two flights to known glide areas have not displayed any FLARM gliders so far but both days where not good gliding weather.
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Richard,
Unlike PAW's 500 milliWatts, FLARM only transmits 10 milliWatts or so. This means that you need to be pretty close to receive them. Assuming perfect antenna positioning, I would expect to be within 2Km of a glider or less before it appears, though we have seen them further out but only in ideal conditions. I found the best thing was to fly parallel to a known glider soaring ridge, with the PAW traffic screen displayed and close the distance slowly. It's then reasonably easy to see when FLARM contacts appear as (like PAW ones) they usually appear at the top of the Traffic screen.
Hope this helps
Peter
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Peter
Thank you. I don't want to fly too close to a know glider site but passing at safe distance. I will enquirer at our club to see if anyone has a FLARM device as a starting point. As for perfect antenna location, the supply FLARM antenna with the redbox is not Upto the job so I have now gone to an external under side mounted on a ground plane along side the PAW antenna see pic. All ready for some flight testing. The ground plane plate has replace the composite inspection cover so was easy to do without making any unnecessary holes for the antennas.
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Hi Richard,
Looks like a really good antenna setup to me. Are you coming to Telford? I will be on the PAW stand, so can talk you through how to check your FLARM transmission pattern via OGN and Kisstech. You can access a plot of your radiation (and hence reception) pattern following cumulative test flights, though from what I see, I suspect your setup will show very positively just from looking at it.
FWIW, I made contact in advance with my local gliding clubs to let them know what I was doing, then as long as you make yourself obvious (strobes etc on), don't sneak up on them and don't get in the way of their flight pattern -.which is usually pretty obvious if you observe for a bit before moving in close, the gliders will generally accept your presence. We even had several deliberately coming out off the ridge to fly round us. Remember you are transmitting FLARM so they should be able to see and follow you on their FLARM displays.
Regards
Peter
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Peter
Sadly work stops a trip to the show this year. Thank you for your offer. I will look into contacting the local glider club and see there response to to a test in there area. Lee talked about a bug with FLARM mouse in the GPS data passing to PAW. I have not notesed any problems with FLARM redbox supplying GPS data to PAW. How did you test for this?
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Richard,
The problem was intermittent GPS data coming through when the FlarmMouse was configured to supply GPS to PilotAware. It originally manifested itself as inability to obtain a GPS lock on PAW and on that first occasion we had to abort the FLARM test and plug the PAW GPS back in instead. AlanG did the initial work afterwards, going through the PAW track log where he found that the FLARM $GPGGA GPS sentences were received every second for 5 seconds, then completely missing for the next 15 seconds before coming back again for 5 and so on repeating on a 20 second cycle. Lee sent my logs off to LX Nav in Slovenia to see if they could provide any explanation, but I don't know if he has got anything back from them yet.
Lee subsequently revised the engineering test software to allow either a standard PAW GPS to be used, with FLARM configured to provide FLARM data only, or FLARM configured to provide both GPS and FLARM data. I have had no problems on several flights since.
Regards
Peter
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Anyone got any idea where to buy a FLARM mouse at a reasonable price ?
I can only find one place online selling them for £643 not £450.
Good job the GPS dongle can be removed as we've run out of USB ports (if you have ADS-OUT) :)
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Hi Ian
Anyone got any idea where to buy a FLARM mouse at a reasonable price ?
I can only find one place online selling them for £643 not £450.
The price strangely increased by £200 pounds, immediately when we announced the Flarm-IN support >:(
Good job the GPS dongle can be removed as we've run out of USB ports (if you have ADS-OUT) :)
Who would have beleived when we started, that 4 USB slots would not have been enough !
Thx
Lee
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Anyone got any idea where to buy a FLARM mouse at a reasonable price ?
I can only find one place online selling them for £643 not £450.
Good job the GPS dongle can be removed as we've run out of USB ports (if you have ADS-OUT) :)
Hi Ian,
Cheapest I know is... http://www.navboys.com/products/flarm/lx-flarm-mouse/ at £624.
Regards
Peter
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Thanks - uncheap though. Long live PAW !
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Thanks - uncheap though. Long live PAW !
We are working on something else as well ....
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Thanks - uncheap though. Long live PAW !
We are working on something else as well ....
I should have guessed ;D ;D 8)
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I'll be holding off buying a Flarm-and-a-leg priced Mouse for a while ;-)
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Flarm-and-a-leg priced Mouse
Like it
Deker You should be in Advertising
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Hi Guys,
Ian F - just a word of caution - see earlier posts #132 /133 in this thread, which refer to a problem I had during testing with intermittent gps data from the FlarmMouse.
During correspondence, LXNav admitted that - with its much smaller internal gps antenna - the LX Mouse gps 'could' be less reliable than PAW's UBlox dongle or UBlox mouse, which both have a larger internal gps antenna. The problem seems to have resolved itself in later testing but to avoid any risk, I have reverted meantime to using the UBlox mouse for PAW gps as my first choice, with the FlarmMouse providing Flarm Data only via PAW Port 1, - which you obviously can't do if you are using Port 1 to drive ADSB out.
In my case, ADSB out was already set up via a separate GPS supply and when the flarm GPS failed I was able to switch PAW off and revert to my iPad's 'backup' BadElf gps to maintain my Nav. Lee has since revised the software and the original problem hasn't so far recurred, so things might be fine, but perhaps worth waiting until I can do a bit more testing before putting all your eggs in one (expensive) basket.
Regards
Peter
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Hi team,
Has anyone had experience with improving FLARM reception? As FLARM only transmits at around 10mw longer range reception can be limited without a good antenna setup. If antenna setup is the best that can be achieved on an aircraft, would adding a filter and preamp improve reception? I came across such a device, see link,
https://store.uputronics.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=51
Would this be a worthy test to try?
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Hi team,
Has anyone had experience with improving FLARM reception? As FLARM only transmits at around 10mw longer range reception can be limited without a good antenna setup. If antenna setup is the best that can be achieved on an aircraft, would adding a filter and preamp improve reception? I came across such a device, see link,
https://store.uputronics.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=51
Would this be a worthy test to try?
Note that you should not add this to anything with a transmitter, so attaching it to a FLARM unit will be an issue unless it is a guaranteed receive only unit. I suspect FLARM also contains an RF front end so adding this onto one of those could damage it. If you're going into an SDR dongle then that will be fine.
I suspect you will need a very smooth supply to give it chance of working properly too.
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We are working on something else as well ....
I would be very interested to know what is planned, as right now I am poised to order a Flarm Mouse. But it is, as has already been stated, a bit of a flarm-and-a-leg price. I would rather not spend more than I have to.
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Note that you should not add this to anything with a transmitter, so attaching it to a FLARM unit will be an issue unless it is a guaranteed receive only unit. I suspect FLARM also contains an RF front end so adding this onto one of those could damage it. If you're going into an SDR dongle then that will be fine.
I suspect you will need a very smooth supply to give it chance of working properly too.
Hi Jeramy
Thank you for your advice, it's best avoided on a transmitter. I just wounded if it was any good for our applications. I may call them and have a chat, just to see what they say about there filters.
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Hi team,
Has anyone had experience with improving FLARM reception? As FLARM only transmits at around 10mw longer range reception can be limited without a good antenna setup. If antenna setup is the best that can be achieved on an aircraft, would adding a filter and preamp improve reception? I came across such a device, see link,
https://store.uputronics.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=51
Would this be a worthy test to try?
Richard,
Best option is to Maximise antenna positioning, plus possibly go for a slightly higher gain tuned antenna. I got my best results using a P3i end-fed dipole (same as the one that comes with the Classic Kit), though an externally mounted 1/4 wave on a good ground plane would probably be as good if not better. I hope to try this option as soon as I get a chance.
Regards
Peter
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Peter,
I feel as though I have the best I can achieve on the Europa. The antennas are mounted externally on the a ground-plane using the 1/4 wave eternal antenna supplied by the PAW team, There is a picture earlier in the thread
http://forum.pilotaware.com/index.php/topic,553.120.html
I was just looking for improvements that may be possible for the poor output from the FLARM devices. Calling it poor output is probably incorrect as FLARM devices tend to fly close to each other. If the signal was stronger they would get false alerts on the glider displays from an other glider much grater distance away.
If we could get to just receive them from a grater distaste would be a big advantage.
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Richard,
Point noted, however 2-3 Km is certainly a respectable distance to receive a warning, providing the glider isn't heading straight towards you of course.
Regards
Peter
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On my quest to improve FLARM reception I came across an antenna suplyed by navboys called P01. See attachment. Has anyone any Expereance with this antenna? and is it as good as they say, as longer it is mounted in a good location.
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OMG £46, isnt this similar but not as good as
http://pilotawarehardware.com/product/dipolecouplet-antenna/
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Hi Lee,
Yes it is..... and a better price too.
I was just wanting to know if anyone had experience with it and would like to comment. It looks like a simple made dipole with heat shrink on each side of a plastic "T" probably cost more to post it than to make it.
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Hi Richard,
I had a 'look' at this one (on paper) a while back. It looks like it should work fine, but is pretty dear for what it is, though probably par for the course for anything with 'Flarm' associations. NavBoys certainly seem a good outfit to deal with in my experience, so I certainly don't think they are trying to rip anyone off.
As I have said before, I started out with the standard short antenna that came with the FlarmMouse - which is extremely position critical, so changed it for a PAW end-fed dipole as supplied with the Classic Kit and got my best range (7Km) in testing with this setup. I also tried a PAW 'centre fed' dipole, located inside the left knee hole of my pod. Whilst the signal was sound to my port side, reception to starboard was significantly attenuated by my legs, the aircraft battery, assorted wiring, metalwork, etc. I think the PAW dipole would however work fine if it can be mounted up high - for example on the right hand side of the aircraft front screen or front edge of one of the side windows (which I don't of course have). If a choice has to be made, it is of course best to keep any antennas facing towards the front of the aircraft to ensure the best reception is directed towards 'head-on' contacts.
I am hoping to reshuffle my tablet and other equipment this weekend to re-site the FlarmMouse to the extreme right side of my coaming, so I can position the Flarm (P3i) end fed dipole out to the extreme right of the screen well clear of obstructions. I will advise on any improvement.
Regards
Peter
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Peter,
Thank you for the help. I will try the end fed dipole To see if I can improve reception. I can mount it in various locations. Keep us informed on your findings too.
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Hi All,
Finally managed to fit a PAW to our CFI's Flexwing on Friday to test integration of the output from his PowerFLARM Core - which comprises Mode C/S, ADSB and FLARM data, with the PAWs own Mode C/S, ADSB and P3i data. Just back home from a second day of testing and its all looking good. PAW successfully integrates the data from the PFC which shows up on the PAW Traffic Screen as for example in the case of CAT ADSB - 'Mode CSA-F' to indicate that the data is derived from a FLARM source but is otherwise treated as any other data. PAW integrates both data streams and displays a single aircraft for each contact on the Nav system as normal. The pure FLARM signal in the screenshot is my spare FlarmMouse, running as a test source as there were no other FLARM equipped aircraft nearby.
Well Chuffed
Regards
Peter
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Sorry if this is a daft idea, but ...
Given that good location is important for the PAW antenna, and, it seems, excellent location is essential for the FL*RM antenna, but that practical constraints may severely limit installation options, and given that the standard PAW end-fed dipole is said to be a good antenna for the FL*RM Mouse, might it be possible for PAW and FL*RM to share a common (PAW end-fed dipole) antenna? The two systems are obviously using different frequencies so should not interfere? Or would filters be needed? Apart from allowing both systems to exploit whatever is the best possible location that the aircraft configuration permits, sharing also simplifies the installation?
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It cannot be done without a clever box of electronics in the middle switching from one TX to the other. Even then, they will get little chance to listen for incoming packets. If you don't have the magic box, the transmission from one, even at low power will trash the sensitive receiver of the other.
Much easier to set up two antenna about a wavelength apart.
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Thanks for the quick reply Ian. If I want to put ~35 cm between the two antennae I face a choice of having one in an excellent location and the other in a poor location - or having both mounted in poor locations as both will have to be on the cockpit. (Not sure whether the standard PAW dipole is even suitable for external mounting?) So that's a great pity. What frequency does FL*RM use BTW?
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(Not sure whether the standard PAW dipole is even suitable for external mounting)
Stu B
I'm currently experimenting with mounting the standard supplied dipole mounted externally. If you put the antenna in its vertical position and use hot glue pushed into the joint, then get some glued lined (waterproof) heat shrink over the mount too, it is nearly impossible for it to bend. Now mounted to the suitable extention.... it works a treat .... not sure how long it will last with 135knot airspeed over time.
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Thanks Richard. Power to your elbow! That would only leave the issue of getting it cleared to be fitted through a hole drilled in my bubble canopy 😉
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Stu,
Just a suggestion but could you mount on the underside of your aircraft? (Upside down) works just as well.
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What frequency does FL*RM use BTW?
Approximately the same as the PAW. Off to top of my head something like 868.2 and 868.4MHz...something like that.
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Thanks, both, for your replies. That is a pretty close frequency, presumably both systems need to use the same limited "public use" part of the spectrum but I presume that greatly increases the likelihood of interaction if the antennae are too close. I had tried some experiments with the PAW and ADSB antennae and from that concluded that there was no significant effect on ADSB reception provided PAW was about 3 inches away from it - but of course ADSB is listening for powerful signals and the two systems are over 10% apart in frequency. Due to absence of PAW targets I could not test if the ADSB antenna was having any effect on PAW reception.
As regards mounting an antenna on the underside of the aircraft, that probably is worth considering, I probably slipped into assuming an "on top of canopy" installation as a natural evolution from my present set up where they hang below the top of the canopy arch. However, I think there is one important consideration that very much favours a "top-side" installation rather than a belly-mount. Even inside the canopy, the antenna is very high above the top of the engine so it should have a view ahead down to perhaps 15 or more degrees below the horizontal, and of course unlimited view above the horizontal. A belly mount would have unrestricted view in the downward arc but would only be only a few inches below the engine 6 feet ahead of it so would barely be able to see above the horizontal at all. I think that is too high a price to pay. The other option I may be forced to consider is a fin-tip installation. That would give good separation though the cable runs would; be lengthy.
BTW - is there any received wisdom re the pros and cons of the red-box FL@RM unit vs the FL@RM Mouse? I have read a thread here somewhere taht said the GPS antenna in teh mouse is small and is a bit of a poor perfomer - not good if teh mouse becomes your primary GPS source for all the conspicuity and nav app systems, so the red box plus a GPS dongle sounds to me a better idea (but of course more wiring!)
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BTW - is there any received wisdom re the pros and cons of the red-box FL@RM unit vs the FL@RM Mouse? I have read a thread here somewhere taht said the GPS antenna in teh mouse is small and is a bit of a poor perfomer - not good if teh mouse becomes your primary GPS source for all the conspicuity and nav app systems, so the red box plus a GPS dongle sounds to me a better idea (but of course more wiring!)
Hi stu,
Your observersions of the antennas is good thinking. For the FLARM redbox, it just needs to be mounted at a position you can conect the RS232 cable to PAW and to get the antenna lead to a position you have described. For the small GPS antenna, mounted in clear vue of the sky. For the question of reliability, after about 20 hours of flight I have never had a dropout or never noticed an inaccurate reading at all, it all works perfectly passing GPS info to my PAW. The GPS antenna is small enough to hide it away. I think the problem was with the FLARM mouse in built antenna., someone may give you the info on that.
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Hi Stu,
Thanks, both, for your replies. That is a pretty close frequency, presumably both systems need to use the same limited "public use" part of the spectrum
Correct
but I presume that greatly increases the likelihood of interaction if the antennae are too close. I had tried some experiments with the PAW and ADSB antennae and from that concluded that there was no significant effect on ADSB reception provided PAW was about 3 inches away from it - but of course ADSB is listening for powerful signals and the two systems are over 10% apart in frequency. Due to absence of PAW targets I could not test if the ADSB antenna was having any effect on PAW reception.
Close proximity of the 1090MHz (ADSB) antenna is unlikely to affect P3I due to the frequency difference and the fact that the ADSB is receive only.
As regards mounting an antenna on the underside of the aircraft, that probably is worth considering, I probably slipped into assuming an "on top of canopy" installation as a natural evolution from my present set up where they hang below the top of the canopy arch. However, I think there is one important consideration that very much favours a "top-side" installation rather than a belly-mount. Even inside the canopy, the antenna is very high above the top of the engine so it should have a view ahead down to perhaps 15 or more degrees below the horizontal, and of course unlimited view above the horizontal. A belly mount would have unrestricted view in the downward arc but would only be only a few inches below the engine 6 feet ahead of it so would barely be able to see above the horizontal at all. I think that is too high a price to pay. The other option I may be forced to consider is a fin-tip installation. That would give good separation though the cable runs would; be lengthy.
All good thinking on antenna placement. It's generally best to keep cable leads as short as possible, though Keith has had good results using the standard 3m extension leads to feed 1/4 wave whips on the underside of his Sportcruiser. If you decide to test a fin-tip option, it might be advisable to use lower loss co-ax (which will be a bit thicker) with appropriate connectors or adapters.
BTW - is there any received wisdom re the pros and cons of the red-box FL@RM unit vs the FL@RM Mouse? I have read a thread here somewhere taht said the GPS antenna in teh mouse is small and is a bit of a poor perfomer - not good if teh mouse becomes your primary GPS source for all the conspicuity and nav app systems, so the red box plus a GPS dongle sounds to me a better idea (but of course more wiring!)
Richard is correct re the GPS issue. It was me that had some GPS problems during testing with my FlarmMouse, though it did work fine for most of the tests and seems to be working again since. Lee sent my track logs for the flights in question off to LXNav in Slovenia, who commented that due to the small size of the inbuilt gps antenna in their (matchbox size) device, gps performance could be poorer than when using a 'full size' gps antenna, but I don't think we have had anything further back from them yet. Lee subsequently reconfigured the PAW software so that if you have FLARM gps available, PAW will use this, but if you also plug in a PAW gps (in my case the mouse) then PAW will use that instead. I have had no problems since reconfiguring my setup along these lines and am getting sound glider fixes, so the inbuilt FlarmMouse gps seems fine when doing what it is designed to do. My previous comments were related to concerns where a couple of users were going to rely on the FlarmMouse gps as the sole source to feed Flarm, PilotAware, ADSB Out and IIRC a glass panel system, which I felt I could not recommend. Just too many eggs in the one (very) small basket for my liking.
I have no personal experience of the LXNavigation FLARM Red Box, so would bow to Richard's experience in this respect.
Regards
Peter
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Close proximity of the 1090MHz (ADSB) antenna is unlikely to affect P3I due to the frequency difference and the fact that the ADSB is receive only.
However, close proximity of the P3i antenna to anything metal, including and probably especially the ADS-B antenna, will affect the propagation of the P3i antenna, both on transmit and receive.
CaptChaos and myself experimented with this using the original ARF modules, which being lower power, showed up the propagation differences more clearly than at present.
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Thanks, both - again all useful stuff! I have the PAW antenna ahead of the ADS-B in the hope that any loss in PAW performance caused by the ADS-B antenna might affect the rear hemisphere rather than the front one, but I suppose it may be that any effect from a nearby metal rod is global rather than directional? I'll have to do some testing. I do have two pilot mates locally who also have PAW so I'll have to arrange a trial.
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From this forum I understand I can connect my powerflarm core to my PAW. Am I right in understanding that I need an RS232 to usb converter and I remove the butterfly unit to SD and take the rs232 feed that went to it, to the PAW in place of the GPS PAW. The FLARM core transmits FLARM to gliders. The PAW then collactes received FLARM/ ADS-B, mode C/S and adds it to information it collects from P3i, all sources are passed to my Nexus 7 via wifi and displayed on SD.
What changes in software or configuartion are required to make this happen?
is there any documentation describing this?
So then I would be transmitting Mode S and ADS-B (transponder), FLARM (core), P3I (PAW) and receiving the same.
I thought it worth spending 1000 on PFLARM a while back and its worth spending the extra 200 to back the other horse.
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Hi Birdyboy,
Yes, pretty much as you describe. I personally run a FlarmMouse integrated to PAW as PAW already gives me the ADSB and P3i reception, but have integrated PFC in my CFI's flexwing for him as he already had it installed and it works great. Simply a case of making up a lead from the PFC data OUT to PAW Data IN via an RS232 to USB adapter cable (I prefer the FTDI USB-RS232-WE-1800-BT-0.0 CABLE, obtainable from CPC Farnell or next day post free from RS Components - watch out there are lots of fakes around mainly from Chinese sources so be careful).
The only setting change is to set the relevant PAW USB port to FLARM IN. The PAW software is already set up for automatic FLARM data integration.
If you already have PFC, this is well worth doing.
Regards
Peter
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Need help.
Can someone write a tutorial PDF. with picture
PilotAware and Flarm
LX RedBox
Config 19200
Relais New
PilotAware Confg USB1 Flarm-In 19200
Relais 20180520
Cabel is USB-RS232-WE-1800-BT-0.0 Pin1=GND BLACK / Pin5=Rx Yellow
Red Box RJ Pin1=GND / Pin3=Tx
Flarm to USB Pilotaware
IS OK
Flarm DATA ?????
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Hi Positiv,
Peter Robertson (ExFirePro) wrote this document about connecting Flarm to PilotAware.
https://pilotaware.com/Documents/FLARM-IN%20via%20LX%20Nav%20FlarmMouse.pdf?_t=1536411663
Does this help?
Thanks,
Ash
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Hi Ash,
Christian (Positiv) has been in touch via e-mail regarding this (forwarded to me by KV). Christian already has the FlarmMouse document but is querying the pin allocations with respect to LX FLARM RedBox connection. I had intended to check this for him and get back to him yesterday but domestic duties got in the way. I will check it out and get back to him today.
I will also post my findings here.
Regards
Peter
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Hi All,
OK, I have checked out Positiv‘s ‘Red Box’ problem (and updated him directly by e-mail on Friday), but as promised post my findings here for the benefit of anyone else wanting to go down this route.
It turns out that the initial confusion was caused by the fact that in their manual for the ‘Red Box’, LXNavigation have reversed the pin numbering convention used in the original FLARM and PowerFLARM units and by LX Nav (different company) in their FlarmMouse (and other) Manual(s). This caused confusion when trying to use the pin out picture in my ‘Direct FLARM via FlarmMouse’ guide from the PilotAware website (taken from the LXNav FlarmMouse Manual) as a guide to integrating the LXNavigation FLARM Red Box. A further complication is that cable colours in ‘standard’ data cables can vary significantly in relation to pin allocations, not least depending on which end of a standard 6 or 8 way cable you decide to cut off to use for your RJ to USB converter (see the ‘FlarmMouse Integration Guide). Thankfully, LXNavigation have reverted to standard pin numbering convention in the manual for their newer PowerFLARM Eagle.
I ‘could’ write a specific guide for the ‘Red Box’, but am a bit sceptical as to how much use would be made of it (please let me know).
In the meantime, the ‘Direct FLARM via FlarmMouse Guide’ provides the required ‘generic’ information and the correct Ground and Tx wires can be determined from this diagram taken from the ‘Red Box’ Manual. N.B. This is looking down on the plug with the brass contact pins underneath. To be safe,Don’t rely on wire colours. ALWAYS use a multi-meter or circuit tester to check that you have the correct wires before making the connection to the converter cable. Getting this wrong has been known to destroy at least one expensive FLARM device - you have been warned!
Any concerns I am happy to offer advice, though in complex cases, I may have to do some research first.
Regards
Peter
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(http://ul-flieger-uehrde.de/images/RJ12-Flarm.jpg)