PilotAware
British Forum => Technical Support => Topic started by: russp on June 02, 2022, 06:48:03 pm
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Just picked up the email about the new software and iGRID and one thing isn't clear .. do we actually need two devices now, one with our EFB on it and another separate one to provide the hotspot for the iGRID? It kinda implies that the same device cant be used for both but doesn't seem to be actually stated.
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I believe you need a cellular phone to provide a hotspot to link to your iPad. The phone can be left anywhere in the aircraft as long you have a signal. Correct me me if I’m wrong. I’m no expert.
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You can do it with one device, but it's involved. With the most recent iPhones and some Android phones, the phone can be a mobile hotspot (so provide Internet) and join the wireless network that the PAW is on.
It's a little tricky and the sequence in which things are done is important.
As I have an old Huawei MiFi, I have used that to provide the PAW with Internet connectivity and simply connected all the other devices to the PAW WiFi, the PAW will act as a router and allow all the devices on its WiFi network to see the Internet.
So, PAW connected to Huawei MiFi running cheapie GiffGaff PAYG SIM, tablets running SD connected to PAW but seeing Internet. Job done. £8/month for cheapie SIM.
HTH
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...the PAW will act as a router and allow all the devices on its WiFi network to see the Internet.
In my mind this has been an extremely useful 'by product' of the development. I use my iPhone's hotspot to connect to the PAW. My iPad is connected to the PAW WIFI (as usual) and, hey presto, my SkyDemon now has Internet for winds, updated NOTAMs etc without having to have a sim card installed in it. Particularly useful if you have a WIFI only iPad :)
Initially I was quite sceptical because I found the hotspot connection quite flaky and that was between an iPhone and iPad, so without the normal complications of Android being in the mix. The hotspot didn't used to automatically reconnect and very often I had no idea what WIFI was connected to what. But Lee and The Team have done some sterling work and yesterday was a particularly good example of how much better it was. My hotspot remained connected throughout, even when my phone screen went to sleep (early versions meant you had to keep the screen awake) and there was no snags with dropping in or out once the phone had its 4G signal. Of course, when there is no 4G signal, the GSM button turns orange and you'll not be receiving the Internet traffic but as soon as 4G came back, I was getting a green GSM box and all was good again, with the traffic counter increasing (Home Page).
I think they've done a great job of getting the hardware to work well together and create a good, additional system to the classic PAW and ATOM station. The only weak point is the phone's 4G and that is going to be affected by many things such as the network you're subscribed to, phone antenna performance/phone location, altitude etc etc. Little the PAW Team can do about that but it is certainly a big plus ;D
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OK - so real world testing on the ground with an ipad mini (running skydemon) and an iphone 7 resulted in my finding out that it doesn't seem to make any difference which I use for the hotspot (I had no issues with connection or with order but maybe got lucky - who knows) Both were less than solid but the issue was the pilotaware radar screen showing intermittently the orange (never red) gsm button indicating that there was no mobile signal being recieved by the hotspot although at all times both hotspot devices showed med to strong signals on different providers. At these times sometimes the weather overlay disappeared and sometimes it didn't. Love the aircraft identification ability on the radar screen.
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So are you saying you can use only one cellular ipad both as usual as an EFB and sim from
It as a hotspot without even needing the second dongle? Or you just saying that you used two dongles, two devices and it sort of worked as expected?
I was also curious to find out if one can connect the hotspot device via a cable rather than over wifi? Anybody knows?
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So are you saying you can use only one cellular ipad both as usual as an EFB and sim from
It as a hotspot without even needing the second dongle? Or you just saying that you used two dongles, two devices and it sort of worked as expected?
The Rosetta has inbuilt Wifi so you only need one plug in dongle. I have got it to work with one device and one dongle, but this is not my mode of operation. I use a second device to service the Internet requirements.
I was also curious to find out if one can connect the hotspot device via a cable rather than over wifi? Anybody knows?
As I understand it the network connection is only for firmware resets. I may be wrong, but a friend who tried to use it for general network access did not succeed.
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So one device meaning same
Device was feeding internet into PAW and was being used for EFB ? Great if so
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Yes - ipad serving as the EFB and the hotspot at the same time. I did have the additional wifi dongle plugged in to the pilot aware and it did seem to need it.
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What dongle were you using. Was it the RALINK 5370?
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Yes - apparently - the one supplied with the original pilotaware classic as confirmed on the other thread
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Both were less than solid but the issue was the pilotaware radar screen showing intermittently the orange (never red) gsm button indicating that there was no mobile signal …
Strictly speaking, this means not receiving data from the GRID server
I think we are going to add a more frequent heartbeat
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So are you saying you can use only one cellular ipad both as usual as an EFB and sim from
It as a hotspot without even needing the second dongle? Or you just saying that you used two dongles, two devices and it sort of worked as expected?
I was also curious to find out if one can connect the hotspot device via a cable rather than over wifi? Anybody knows?
If you mean rj45, then yes
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Sorry, not sure what rj45 is… could you please clarify in simple terms (i tend to think I’m not a newbie user, but not familiar with quite a few very tech terms either):
1) I can plug in my iphone via a cable to paw classic and have it as a hotspot without the additional wifi dongle or any wifi use for enabling igrid?
2) if “hotspot over the cable” is not an option and my ipad has a sim, can I use just that ipad to get traffic and to be a hotspot at the same time?
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Sorry, not sure what rj45 is… could you please clarify in simple terms (i tend to think I’m not a newbie user, but not familiar with quite a few very tech terms either):
RJ45 is the network cable on the PilotAware device
1) I can plug in my iphone via a cable to paw classic and have it as a hotspot without the additional wifi dongle or any wifi use for enabling igrid?
No, as the iPhone will attempt to draw power, not a good idea
2) if “hotspot over the cable” is not an option and my ipad has a sim, can I use just that ipad to get traffic and to be a hotspot at the same time?
If it can act as a hotspot and client, then yes
Not all devices support this
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2) if “hotspot over the cable” is not an option and my ipad has a sim, can I use just that ipad to get traffic and to be a hotspot at the same time?
If it can act as a hotspot and client, then yes
Not all devices support this
I think that this cannot be over emphasised, not all devices will support this and if there's a problem, a very cheap dedicated device, either an older phone no longer used or a very small mobile broadband router like the Huawei which is not much bigger than a custard cream can be used. This simplifies things in that it only needs to be turned on and off before and after flight, with the PAW linked only to that hotspot.
3GB of data on a service like GiffGaff will set you back £8.
(https://consumer-img.huawei.com/content/dam/huawei-cbg-site/common/mkt/pdp/routers/4g-mobile-wifi-3/white.png)
ScoureBay for something second hand, but don't forget to buy unlocked...
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"...the PAW will act as a router and allow all the devices on its WiFi network to see the Internet."
Just installed the latest software and configured WiFi dongle etc and all works from the PAW point of view (Radar screen shows rain, POI etc.) except that my tablet does not appear to see the internet.
My setup is Android 4G phone hotspot, PAW, Android tablet.
Am I missing a setup item somewhere?
DFN
Ignore this - just found the "Router" option in "Network" page which was disabled by default. All now OK
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Dear Lee,
The GSM iPad can share its internet connection via wifi, bluetooth or USB.
Would the PAW accept a such data connection via bluetooth or usb?
Does the PAW require separate data in & data out connections?
Thanks,
Roger
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Hi Roger
The GSM iPad can share its internet connection via wifi, bluetooth or USB.
Would the PAW accept a such data connection via bluetooth or usb?
Bluetooth, its a possibility but, we would have to do significant work to support this - maybe for the future
USB, the problem here is that it draws additional power via the USB socket, which can cause issues
Does the PAW require separate data in & data out connections?
Not sure I understand this question could you elaborate ?
thx
Lee
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could you elaborate ?
Yes, if the iPad has an internal cellular internet connection and is also connected to the primaryPAW wifi. Will data flow in both directions (ie Skygrid from PAW to iPad, iGrid from iPad to PAW)?
I'm just trying to get to the nub of this thread's title.
For simplicity can full functionality be achieved with just a GSM iPad & PAW?
Thank you for such a great system.
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could you elaborate ?
Yes, if the iPad has an internal cellular internet connection and is also connected to the primaryPAW wifi. Will data flow in both directions (ie Skygrid from PAW to iPad, iGrid from iPad to PAW)?
I'm just trying to get to the nub of this thread's title.
For simplicity can full functionality be achieved with just a GSM iPad & PAW?
Thank you for such a great system.
You're asking the same question I asked at the beginning of the thread - the answer is for my ipad mini4 the ipad can send data in both directions via the single wifi connection if you set it up as a mobile hotspot. I'd suspect it will work fine with any modern(ish) iOS device with a SIM card in. It's clear from what's been said here that it doesnt work reliably on android. If you're on Apple you almost certainly only need one device to take advantage of this. HTH.
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Thanks Rus,
Normally a computer network connection works in both directions.
That appears not to be the case from your test & I wondered if Lee could shed any light on that.
It seems unnecessary to have two wifi networks in order for two devices to share data.
Regards
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It seems unnecessary to have two wifi networks in order for two devices to share data.
It may be unnecessary but we're just doing what works, as Lee has designed it.
You could always trial it with just the one network and report back?
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Thanks Rus,
Normally a computer network connection works in both directions.
That appears not to be the case from your test & I wondered if Lee could shed any light on that.
It seems unnecessary to have two wifi networks in order for two devices to share data.
Regards
No I think my test shows that it does work in both directions - there is only one wifi connection as far as I can tell.
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Thanks Rus,
Normally a computer network connection works in both directions.
That appears not to be the case from your test & I wondered if Lee could shed any light on that.
It seems unnecessary to have two wifi networks in order for two devices to share data.
Regards
Aaahh, you would think so wouldn't you
There are two modes of operation for the wifi setup
AP (Access Point) - this is the client that attaches to a router
STA (Station) - this is a router that allows incoming connections from clients
It is possible with some WiFi devices to have a simultaneous AP+STA operation
I experimented with this setup, and its performance was simply not good enough, it appeared to time division multiplex the operations, to the point where it was not sufficiently adequate, hence why we are using 2 WiFi devices.
thx
Lee
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Thanks Lee & Russ,
I'm also getting 4 greens with 1 device.
Some good weather returns yesterday!
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Thanks Lee & Russ,
I'm also getting 4 greens with 1 device.
Some good weather returns yesterday!
Its good innit :D
Who would dare post this info on the Flyer Forum ::)
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Thanks Lee & Russ,
I'm also getting 4 greens with 1 device.
Some good weather returns yesterday!
Its good innit :D
Who would dare post this info on the Flyer Forum ::)
Welcome to the (Flyer Forum) Augean Stables. Anyone fancy being Hercules for a bit?
You'll need a fast, free flowing river to wash out all the bovine excrement, or in simple language, bull xxxx.
The cows are sacred, BTW, which is why they produce so much xxxx.
It's too big a labour for the ordinary mortal... :D
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What PAW says versus looking out of the square window :)
For the sharp-eyed, the GSM had only just turned amber, so the weather info was up-to-date.
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Fyi, if the weather is out of date it is removed, independent of whether gsm is active or not
Thx
Lee
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First flight using IGrid today, Andrewsfield out to the East, Clacton-Felixstowe and return. A regular route I do just for a bit of currency
First Impressions, A LOT more targets are visible, that's for sure ;D
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Fyi, if the weather is out of date it is removed, independent of whether gsm is active or not
Thx
Lee
Hi Lee,
How old does the data have to be before it is removed from the display?
I'd like to see a icon showing weather age in minutes please.
There was an NTSB recommendation that weather displays show the age of the data following a fatal accident which resulted from a pilot making a decision based on old data.
Deker.
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the weather updates every 10 mins
I think it is removed 5 mins after missing an update
I like your idea of a time stamp, or age marker
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Could someone from PAW please confirm that it is possible for a single device (iPhone) to be connected both to the Rosetta through the usual WiFi link as well as the Rosetta being connected to the same iPhone's HotSpot. Someone earlier in the thread said that the sequencing is difficult, and so it seems. Each time I try it seems to kick the iPhone off the WiFi to connect the Hotspot, or vice versa.
Many thanks
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I've got the same issue on both iOS and Android. Any way to get hotspot tethering via Bluetooth or USB?
Another issue: how to get browser full screen on paw.local/192.168.1.1. would be helpful on both iOS and Android when using split screen.
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If I have a tablet connected to PAW running Sky Demon in the normal way and use a separate phone to provide the GSM data with PAW connected it its hot-spot, can that phone be used to display the PAW traffic radar / weather page?
ATB
Deker.
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The ability of the phone to act as a wifi client AND hotspot simultaneously, is a feature of the phone, not PilotAware
The newer iPhone supports this but it’s impossible for us to compile a list of all devices, due to the vast range
Thx
Lee
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First flight using IGrid today, Andrewsfield out to the East, Clacton-Felixstowe and return. A regular route I do just for a bit of currency
First Impressions, A LOT more targets are visible, that's for sure ;D
A lot more -relevant- targets, i.e. likely to represent a threat, or just a lot more distant clutter?
It’s a genuine question, as I really want to know whether it’s worth the the extra faff every time I go flying.
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The ability of the phone to act as a wifi client AND hotspot simultaneously, is a feature of the phone, not PilotAware
The newer iPhone supports this but it’s impossible for us to compile a list of all devices, due to the vast range
Thx
Lee
Hi Lee,
thanks.
I've done a quick check and my phone informs me I have the option of Wifi OR hotspot - both on is not possible on my (Android) phone.
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Hi Derek,
My Samsung Galaxy S9+ is perfectly happy to run the Hotspot and connect to WiFi at the same time. With Android it seems to vary not just from manufacturer to manufacturer, but even from model to model, which can be very frustrating.
That said, it appears there are issues between Apple devices too, with the newer models defaulting to 5GHz WiFi, requiring adjustment to their compatibility setting to work with PAW’s 2.4GHz WiFi.
Certainly keeps us on our toes :)
Best Regards
Peter
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First flight using IGrid today, Andrewsfield out to the East, Clacton-Felixstowe and return. A regular route I do just for a bit of currency
First Impressions, A LOT more targets are visible, that's for sure ;D
A lot more -relevant- targets, i.e. likely to represent a threat, or just a lot more distant clutter?
It’s a genuine question, as I really want to know whether it’s worth the the extra faff every time I go flying.
You should get more targets in the local area as iGRID will assist in removing obscuration from poorly fitted devices particularly those that cant have remote antennas
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The ability of the phone to act as a wifi client AND hotspot simultaneously, is a feature of the phone, not PilotAware
The newer iPhone supports this but it’s impossible for us to compile a list of all devices, due to the vast range
Thx
Lee
Hi Lee,
thanks.
I've done a quick check and my phone informs me I have the option of Wifi OR hotspot - both on is not possible on my (Android) phone.
I get that exact same warning on my iphone - connect to the wifi and it switches the hotspot off BUT if the hotspot is switched back on the ipad (mini 4) connects without affecting the wifi.
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Well, I took the plunge on the 4G dongle option but have yet to fly and see how it works.
I did turn things off and on a few times and the PAW connected to the WIFI 'hotspot' very quickly each time. Traffic was shown nicely. Even though the iPad was connected successfully to the PAW WIFI and doing things correctly (GPS position, traffic etc) it did take a while for the Internet to start coming down the tubes and into the iPad. This could be seen by the whirling circle on the left of the PAW WIFI on the WIFI settings, the lack of a nice WIFI cheese at the top, right of the iPad and, of course, a lack of SkyDemon winds and, also, access to websites. Once the whirling circle was replaced with a blue tick, WIFI cheese etc, everything worked nicely. There just seems (to me) to be a delay while the PAW router sorts things out and starts sending Internets to the iPad over the PAW WIFI.
The dongle is velcroed to the fabric floor of the aircraft underneath the seats, so should get a pretty good view of all that is below it. I did experiment with the supplied external antennas but, once again with a 4G dongle/router, found it actually had fewer bars. SO no external antennas attached.
I'm looking forward to going flying and seeing that it all works but, already, I do like the convenience of just turning on the power and letting things connect automatically, without having to turn on phone hotspots etc.
Stand by for a happy or sad face ???
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Happy radar with GSM and happy SkyDemon, once the Internet was piped to it.
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Hi Paul,
Can you post a link to the 4G Dongle you are using please. I'll be interested to hear how it compares to the previous performance with your phone.
I have been out of circulation for the past couple of weeks - initially on holiday, then caught the dreaded bug right at the end of the holiday and have been somewhat under the weather since. Hoping to get back in the air later this week and now have a full suite of devices (4G dongle, MiFi and 2 different phones) to run round my standard 'test track' with and also two different networks to compare device and network variation. I will report back.
Best Regards
Peter
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Hi Peter,
This is the dongle I bought:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0B2Q5QQN7/ref=pe_27063361_485629781_TE_item (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0B2Q5QQN7/ref=pe_27063361_485629781_TE_item)
I had hoped to run it off a USB port in my PAW but Lee recommended that I didn't, so I didn't. It's running off a Charge 4 slot.
So it's really just sitting there, blaring away as a 4G WIFI hotspot and showing up very well on every device I have.......on the ground.
It shows well on the PAW Network page and connects immediately to the Hotspot section. Unlike me iPhone I don't need to enable Hotspot etc.
As I said above, the 4G stuff seems okay and connects nicely to PAW. The only thing that is slow to sort itself out is the Internet being piped to my iPad via the PAW router. Once it connects it works well, it just takes its merry time doing so.
I'm going for some punishment in the sim over the next couple of days but hope to see how it all works out after that.
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So are you saying you can use only one cellular ipad both as usual as an EFB and sim from
It as a hotspot without even needing the second dongle? Or you just saying that you used two dongles, two devices and it sort of worked as expected?
The Rosetta has inbuilt Wifi so you only need one plug in dongle. I have got it to work with one device and one dongle, but this is not my mode of operation. I use a second device to service the Internet requirements.
My Rosetta does not have built in Wi-Fi but has a dongle, and I don’t have a spare USB slot as I’m powering an Aircrew from the only spare slot - perhaps I have an early Rosetta. Any chance of an upgrade from PAW?
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Sounds like you have a classic not a rosetta.
It's not a good idea to run aircrew from the PilotAware as it may on certain occasions take a lot of power. Best to run it from a separate source.
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The dongle is velcroed to the fabric floor of the aircraft underneath the seats, so should get a pretty good view of all that is below it. I did experiment with the supplied external antennas but, once again with a 4G dongle/router, found it actually had fewer bars. SO no external antennas attached.
Just to clarify for future readers, the dongle's external antennas are for the WiFi signal, not the 4G signal.
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Are they really :-[ Well that's a bit embarrassing, as I thought they were receiving the 4G. No wonder they didn't make any difference :(
Every day's a school day :)
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As covered elsewhere in the thread; whether you need two devices or not is very device specific…
My iPhone 8 - ok - can act as hotspot while simultaneously connecting to pilotaware WiFi - 1 device ok
My friends iPhone 11 - ok - can act as a hotspot and connect to WiFi simultaneously
My iPhone 13 - not ok - cannot act as a hotspot and simultaneously connect to WiFi - 2 devices needed minimum
My iPad mini 2 - not ok - cannot act as a hotspot and simultaneously connect to WiFi
It then also depends on how many screens you want to drive…
In order to have SkyDemon on my ipad and pilotaware radar on my phone, I am going to have to carry 3 devices when flying, use the old iPhone as paw radar, ipad as SkyDemon, connect those to paw by WiFi, and have my current phone on 4g acting as hotspot… If only iPad mini 2 could split screen… …
Detail added in case useful to the paw team!