PilotAware

British Forum => Technical Support => Topic started by: Kurt37 on June 29, 2020, 07:00:13 pm

Title: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: Kurt37 on June 29, 2020, 07:00:13 pm
Hi there,

I am from GER and completely new to the scene. I want to support PAW with multiple stations in the NW of Germany and as a pilot use PAW up in the air.

Since ground coverage is not (yet) the best, I would like to connect PAW with the powermouse (flarmmouse successor). I read the instructions on how to connect to the old flarmmouse.

Questions:
Has anyone connect PAW to powermouse?
What is different to the setup w/ flarmmouse?
Do I still need a splitter or is it a direct connection?
Does it work well in real life?

Thank you very much for your help.

Patrick
Does it work well + can
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: Kurt37 on June 29, 2020, 09:44:27 pm
Btw the powermouse is described in a very good way here:
https://gliding.lxnav.com/products/powermouse/

It has 2 rj45 and a USB socket, with a splitter included.

Is it enough to connect the rj45 with the accessible paw rj45?
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: exfirepro on June 29, 2020, 11:21:44 pm
Hi Kurt,

I actually wrote the paper on the PilotAware site about integrating FLARMMouse into PilotAware. I have done this with FLARMMouse, FLARM Red Box and PowerFLARM Core. The principle in each case is exactly the same, though the detail varies slightly depending on the device. The only real difference between the 6 pin RJ12 and 8 pin RJ45 connectors is that with the 8-pin type, either Pin 1 or Pin 2 of can be used for ‘Power +’ and either Pin 7 or Pin 8 for ‘Power -‘. With the 6-pin RJ12, only a single pin at each end is used for ‘Power +’ and ‘Power -‘ connection.

As you will have seen from the PowerMouse Manual, one of the RJ45 sockets is normally used for Power Supply (using Pins 1 and 8 or 2 and 7). The other socket is normally used to feed data to a dedicated FLARM display. If you want to retain a FLARM display and connect to PilotAware, you can either use a splitter to feed the Display and the PilotAware from the second socket, or make up your own lead to supply power to the PowerMouse (via pins 1 and 8,) and feed data to your PilotAware via pins 4 and 5 from the same socket, leaving the other socket free for your display. In either case, you need to connect Pin 5 of the socket to the Yellow wire in the FTDI USB cable and Pin 4 of the socket to the Black wire. Either of the above will work fine.

Any problems or further questions, please come back to me.

In any case, please let us know how you get on.

Best Regards

Peter
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: Kurt37 on June 30, 2020, 06:51:27 am
Hi Peter,

I was hoping you would reply, so thank you very much for your explanations. They help a lot.

For clarification: I am planning a setup without a display, I will be using Skydemon connected via WiFi to the PAW. From what I understand that might make it even easier.

So with PAW and Powermouse without a display the procedure would be:

Data Transfer:
Powermouse is plugged in via RJ45 plug, PAW via USB.
Powermouse RJ45 Port 1 is connected to the Pilotaware USB to feed data to the PAW. Cable in use FTDI USB. Pins 4 and 5 of the RJ45 plug are used. The USB cable is plugged into the PAW, and a Rj45 plug is attached to the other side, no splitter , no bounding of cables needed. RJ45 Pin 4 is connected to the black USB wire, RJ45 Pin 5 to the yellow USB wire.

Power supply for Powermouse:
The other port (2) is used with a flarm rj45 power cable using pin 1 and 8 OR 2 and 7.

Is that procedure correct?

Questions:
The PAW RJ45 socket cannot be used as a data feed towards the PAW, only the USB socket is used, as described above?

Can I power the powermouse from the PAW with the free pins on port 1 within the FTDI USB cable? (Pins 1 and 8 or 2 and 7). I would save a cable (in port 2) in the cockpit. If yes: which FTDI wires do I use?

If not:
Does the powermouse power cable come with the powermouse ready made? Do you have a link? Is an Anker powerbank with a USB oder USB-C connection sufficient?
What do I do with the other wires of the FTDI cable that are not in use?
 
With those questions answered and clarified for me I will go ahead with the procedure and share my experience installing PAW and Powermouse with detailed photos.

Kind regards,
Patrick
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: Kurt37 on June 30, 2020, 10:08:12 am
+ without wanting to make things to complicated:

I spoke to LX Nav and asked about the power supply. It has to be 12V, so anything via USB (max 5V) will not be sufficient.
If Pilotaware can power the powermouse, will it be 12V? I personally cant believe that.
How do you otherwise power the powermouse if you dont have a 12V cig lighter in the aircraft?

His recommondation went towards the Powerbat (also Powerflarm In/Out). Advantage 10h of battery. Also built in splitter (so no extra splitter with PAW needed?) and apparently 2x RJ45 (different infos on the net).IF RJ45, it would be same wiring as explained in the 2 posts before, I assume.

Would PAW and FlarmBAT work? Are there any disadvantages known that PowerBat has compared to Powermouse?

Sorry for so many question, I will promise to make a documentary when I have finished my setup + I will make it public.

Kind Regards,
Patrick
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: PaulSS on June 30, 2020, 11:47:41 am
Hi Patrick,

From reading the Powermouse manual it is true the power supply should be between 8-30V, in other words; using the aircraft's 12V power supply.

Is the aircraft your own, in which you can make a permanent fit or is it your intention to have everything transportable?

If it is your own and you want to fit it permanently then it would be a very simple job to connect to an existing CB/fuse input and then just have an in-line 3A fuse. The ground wire could connect to any ground point/ground bus bar.

As the Raspberry Pi runs on 5V I do not think it will be realistic to run it from the same power supply. That would involve a step-up transformer and that just gets a bit silly.

Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: exfirepro on June 30, 2020, 01:25:38 pm
Hi again Patrick,

You are correct in your readback for using the PowerMouse. Just be careful to make sure you still have the correct wires in the correct place before crimping them into the RJ45 plug (that's a very common mistake). Also as you aren't using the other wires in the converter cable, take care to individually insulate them from each other as well as from anything outside.

You can't power the PowerMouse (or FlarmBat) from your PilotAware as they both run on a nominal 12 Volts, whereas Pilotaware runs on 5 Volts. Each device should be powered separately.

The PowerMouse definitely includes a power cable (with bare ends but without fuse holder etc). From reading the manual, the FlarmBat certainly includes a charging cable but probably not a 12 volt power cable - you would need to check with your supplier. You can, however, certainly run either device PowerMouse or FlarmBat from an 8 - 30 Volt supply. This is to allow their use in aircraft having a nominal 12 or 24 volt supply. As Paul has said above, the power supply should be independently switched and connected via a suitable fuse or circuit breaker to protect the device and the aircraft's electrical systems.

Unfortunately you can't use the PAW RJ45 connector for Flarm-In as this port is set up for Ethernet, not Flarm data. You MUST use an RS232 Serial to USB converter. We recommend the FTDI-USB-RS232-WE-1800-BT 0.0 converter lead (there is also a longer 5metre version coded FTDI-USB-RS232-WE-5000-BT 0.0 if you need it). These can be obtained from various sources, though we recommend a reputable supplier such as RS or Farnell in the UK as there are a lot of fake copies on some internet sites. RS Stock No. is 687-7828. Also be aware there are lots of sites advertising RS232 TTL level converters - THESE WILL NOT WORK.
 
All that said, the FlarmBat is certainly an alternative to the PowerMouse - if you feel you would benefit from it's inbuilt display and self contained battery, though those of course make it more expensive. If you aren't bothered about the cost and have space to mount it on top of your coaming (dashboard), it would certainly be worth considering. You can then as you suggest use one RJ45 Port for your Power Lead and the other for the RJ45 RS232 to USB Converter Cable to connect to your PilotAware.

Let us know what you decide.

Best Regards

Peter
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: Kurt37 on June 30, 2020, 04:16:28 pm
First of all I am quite happy, that I do not need a splitter, since keeping everything compact is key for me.

I think I will go for the Flarmbat. 1 cable less in the cockpit (battery powered).

Adsb in is within the PAW so I would not need that on the Flarmbat, right?

Can the flarmbat be next/ near to the PAW on the dashboard or do they interfere with each other?

Patrick
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: exfirepro on June 30, 2020, 07:34:57 pm
Hi Patrick,

I should have asked earlier, What sort of aircraft are we talking about?

OK on going for the FlarmBat - that’s a good choice. They are very popular and if you need to you can add a charging lead powered from the plane later.

No, you won’t need the ADSB option as PAW does that for you really well - in fact unless you are flying a glider competitively, you don’t need the IGC or ENL either and can go for the cheapest FlarmBat version. The 2nd FLARM antenna option (which extends reception below your aircraft so can be useful especially in a metal-bodied aircraft) can I’m pretty sure be added later as it is (I think) primarily a licence key to release the function in software plus a second (preferably external) antenna. Again, check this with your supplier - fairly expensive though so most don’t seem to bother.

It is always best to keep the units reasonably far apart if you can, to reduce any potential for PAW Tx (on 869.5 MHz) to de-sensitise the FLARM Rx (on 868 MHz) - though in practice this isn’t ‘critical’ as the PAW only transmits in short bursts. It’s also always best to maintain a bit of space between the two units’ (internal) GPS antennas if you can do so. In practice, I run my FlarmMouse and Rosetta about 30cm from each other in my Flexwing with no problems.

Best Regards

Peter
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: Kurt37 on June 30, 2020, 10:46:29 pm
I fly C172, Aquila 210 and a ultralight dynamic WT9. So all fixed wing, closed cockpits.

The C172 obviously being a full metal 4 seater AC, the others 2 seater GFK AC.

Since I have all choices yet to make: which antennas would you recommend for the Flarmbat?

Kind regards,
Patrick


Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: Kurt37 on July 05, 2020, 06:44:24 pm
Just to confirm I am planning to use the rosetta. I read it has two spare USB ports internally and I would have run the cable out somehow. Which port to use to feed information from flarm? And does it need configuring?
Brief, quick answer appreciate. I am planning to purchase everything tomorrow.

Re antennas: superfant antennas are the best for metal AC, attached via cables, not directly to the device.

Kind regards
Patrick
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: exfirepro on July 05, 2020, 09:17:58 pm
Patrick,

Put the FTDI USB in the bottom port in the ‘middle’ row, below the GPS. If you do this, the plastic strain relief slots onto the bottom part of the case and holds the cable in place. You need to file out the cover so it still slides back on over the strain relief. This port is USB Port 2. Configure USB Port 2 to ‘Flarm-IN’ and 19,200 Baud on Rosetta Configure the rest as specified in the FlarmMouse Instructions which I believe you already have.

Regards

Peter
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: Kurt37 on July 18, 2020, 05:06:59 am
Thanks Peter, you have been very helpful in the planning process.

One more thing I would like to have clarified:

Which GPS is used (PAW or Flarmbat)? Which GPS should I use and how do I control the GPS use (PAW/Flarmbat/Skydemon)

Does the Rosetta come with an external GPS that I can just velcro on the dash?

+ The Baud rate setting in the Flarmbat also have to be 19.200, I guess? Anything else I need to set up in the Flarmbat config file?

Kind regards
Patrick
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: exfirepro on July 18, 2020, 06:07:59 am
Hi again Patrick,

The standard Rosetta GPS is a USB dongle - mounted internally inside the end of the case. Rosetta is designed to use its own GPS by default, or an approved external GPS if one is directly connected in place of the internal one. Rosetta will automatically supply GPS position data to SkyDemon once your tablet or phone is connected to the PilotAware WiFi Hotspot and you select ‘Go Flying - Use PilotAware’.

SkyDemon cannot be configured to run on tablet internal GPS and accept external traffic data, so has to use the traffic system GPS.

Rosetta won’t supply GPS to the Flarmbat, which has its own internal GPS. During early integration testing, we tried to use GPS data from the FlarmMouse internal GPS to supply PAW but found this to be unreliable, (probably due to a much smaller antenna), though it is perfectly capable of operating the FlarmMouse (or Flarmbat) on its own.

The Rosetta internal GPS can be resited, onto the coaming for example, by using a suitable USB extension cable, though you may want to enclose the GPS in a small plastic box for protection. Be careful to position it ‘right side up’ so that the circuit board doesn’t screen the ceramic antenna. (The same of course applies when mounting Rosetta with the antenna inside.) Alternatively, you can buy an external GPS from online sites such as Amazon - search for vk162

Regards

Peter
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: Kurt37 on July 18, 2020, 12:55:30 pm
Okay. The Rosetta just arrived. I tried in the Cessna under the top shield of the instrument panel (so it's not blocking the view as if it were on the coaming). I will update this with some pictures later. I was rather worried that under the panel the GPS wouldn't work but I'm suprise even without direct line of site it still has 8 satellites and works reliable.

What is the setting to use the flarms GPS if I need to?
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: Admin on July 18, 2020, 09:21:23 pm
Just unplug the gps dongle, it will use the flarm gps automatically
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: exfirepro on July 19, 2020, 09:34:03 am
Hi Patrick,

Just unplug the gps dongle, it will use the flarm gps automatically

But only if you have the RS232 to USB Connection in place between the two devices of course.

If you do try this option, please let us know how you get on. We corresponded with LXNav about this issue at the time, so it will be interesting to see if they have improved the GPS in the new FlarmBat and if it proves more reliable as a GPS source than my (Classic) FlarmMouse. (I now run the FlarmMouse and Rosetta on their own independent GPSes).

Regards

Peter

Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: Kurt37 on July 20, 2020, 09:27:49 pm
Just unplugging, wow didn't think it would be that easy. Yes the ftdi cable arrived as well, as soon as the flarmbat arrives I will compare both ways and will report the results.

Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: exfirepro on July 20, 2020, 11:12:58 pm
Yes, Lee likes to keep things as simple as possible. Looking forward to hearing the results.

Regards

Peter
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: Kurt37 on July 30, 2020, 06:57:32 am
Hi there,

Al parts have now arrived. I will make a small documentary of the parts used, the config work (although Peter has done a great job on that, thank you, without that I wouldn't have made it), and the installment in the Cessna.

Part involved (briefly)
Paw rosetta
Flarmbat with 2 Flarm antennas
2x Flarm Boosters for better reception in the all metal Cessna
Powerbank
9V Battery for the rear Booster
2 SuperFANT Flarm Antennas

I've got the Flarmbat and the Rosetta connected (crimping was very unstable and I just used a pin 4+5 patch cable and soldered the wires with the ones from the ftdi,much better IMHO). I haven't received any Flarm traffic but the Flarmbat obviously tx, every time it does that the Ftdi usb controller flashes green, which is correct I assume.
First experience with GPS: I am feeding the Rosetta (USB Port 2 set to Flarm in and 19200 baud) with Flarmbats GPS, and indoors it is working fine with 7 satellites in use. I will report from today's flight and maybe revert to the internal Rosetta GPS.

Question: since the Flarmbat has a display, and is capable of showing adsb and mode s traffic, is it possible (maybe with a second ftdi usb cable ) to feed the pilotaware adsb/mode s out to the Flarmbat?

Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: exfirepro on July 30, 2020, 09:37:21 am
Morning Patrick,

IIRC your FlarmBat is the ‘Flarm-only’ version (without the optional ADSB Receiver).

Rosetta ‘can’ feed data out via USB in FLARM Protocol - designed to feed external displays such as Dynon, but I have no idea how the FlarmBat is configured. I suspect it won’t be configured to allow external ADSB data to be fed in as this would circumvent purchase of their own ADSB Receiver Option.

Just out of interest, for a while now I have been involved in development testing one of these for one of our independent ‘partner companies’... http://Aircrew.co.uk

Originally designed in response to requests from PilotAware Users for a small dedicated self-contained traffic display, I now use Aircrew as my ‘primary’ traffic display - fed combined traffic (including integrated or re-broadcast FLARM and Mode-S MLAT) and GPS data from Rosetta by WiFi, - in parallel with SkyDemon on my iPad (which adds navigational and situational awareness by virtue of its ‘moving map’ chart). I have the Aircrew mounted at eye level on my flexwing’s ‘Front Strut’, so noticing incoming traffic is almost automatic, without significantly interrupting my visual scan. An added bonus is that the traffic display ‘range’ can be zoomed in or out quickly and easily using the built-in rotary knob - even with gloved hands, which (in my case) will be of immense benefit come winter.

The Aircrew also has an easily selectable artificial horizon and track deviation indicator which would be useful if I ever find myself inadvertently in cloud or poor viz. (not unusual conditions when flying here in Scotland).

Just thought you might be interested.

Looking forward to hearing how it all goes.

Best Regards

Peter

Edit: Can you provide a link to your ‘Flarm Boosters’ please. I am interested in how they ‘boost reception’ without excessively attenuating what is already a relatively weak transmit signal.
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: Kurt37 on August 01, 2020, 02:02:50 am
Thanks for the info, I will look into it.

My first "test" flight experiences in a full metal C172S:

GPS: Feeding GPS from the Flarmbat to the Rosetta was without problems, it took 2 min to find a fix and had a constant of 6-9 satellites in use. No drop outs at all.Skydemon had a blue or green flag and altitude was a max of 50ft off my altimeter. That was all archived with the Flarmbat under the coaming (mainly plastic, but small metal bits still there, definitely no line of sight with the sky).

ADSB/Mode S: good. I received lots of traffic.

Flarm: very good. Traffic was transmitted to the Rosetta, no dropouts. Range with Flarm Booster and two SuperFANT antennas 20-25 km (front glare shield with 1.5m cable and rear shield 3.0m cable lengths). Both powered by RX Flarm Booster, TX is just bypassed, low noise filter:
https://shop.jetvision.de/epages/64807909.mobile/en_GB/?ViewObjectID=33942412 (https://shop.jetvision.de/epages/64807909.mobile/en_GB/?ViewObjectID=33942412)

We had a coax front antenna cable disconnect, so forward range is not yet confirmed.
Traffic Radar:
I started off using skydemon only but ended up using PAW radar page (more contrast and more importantly more traffic visible).
Skydemon was only showing our other club aircraft when he approached us within 2nm on adsb. We were on a taxi way and he did touch and goes. On SD I only saw him during landing (threshold) and then he disappeared on skydemon but was visible on the Flarmbat and paw traffic page. Why is that? Is there any experience with traffic not been forwarded to SD? Skydemon settings for traffic were at maximum.
..
Ground station:
We picked up one OGN-R on our flight (the one in Rheine something with Rock or EDWN?) We were in 2000ft at all times and I think the horizontal distance was approx 15km. Can you Peter check at what the range of that PAW station in Rheine we were picking it up. Hex code 3DCE08.

So so far so good, I've been getting lots of info out of this forum and from Keith, now hoping to give some back to the forum.
Pictures of the whole set-up to come.

Cheers
Patrick

Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: exfirepro on August 02, 2020, 08:43:26 am
Morning Patrick,

Thanks for the report. You certainly haven’t wasted any time! I have commented under your individual headings.

GPS: Good on the GPS feed from the FlarmBat, that sounds much more reliable than I was getting from my FlarmMouse. I’m guessing PowerFlarm must use an updated GPS unit with a better antenna - especially if as you say it is mounted under the coaming (behind the dashboard)*. I must say I’m a bit surprised if you have fitted the FlarmBat there. I would want it on top so I can see the inbuilt display. I find the FLARM display linked to my FlarmMouse very useful - to confirm it has GPS fix and is transmitting and to point me to the gliders when they are ‘hiding’ just below cloudbase.

* I take it we are both talking about the same thing here? In English the ‘coaming’ is the flat area on top of the dashboard below the windscreen?

FLARM: Thank you for the info on the Flarm Booster. I now remember seeing these before, but ruling them out on cost. I might be tempted to have another look when they come back in stock.

ADSB/ Mode-S: You say you received lots of traffic,... but then go on to report that ‘SkyDemon was only showing our other club aircraft when he approached us within 2nm on adsb. We were on a taxi way and he did touch and goes. On SD I only saw him during landing (threshold) and then he disappeared on SkyDemon but was visible on the Flarmbat and paw traffic page. Why is that? Is there any experience with traffic not being forwarded to SD? SkyDemon settings for traffic we’re at maximum.’

If the other aircraft is truly ADSB (or Mode-S ES) you should see it reliably from well over 50km - often as much as 100-150Km (though range will be much less if you are on the ground or blocked by hangars or terrain). Mode-S on the other hand is dependent on position as it only transmits when interrogated by Radar (or TCAS), so often disappears at low level or when the aircraft is on the ground (except at or near commercial airports, where it is triggered by their Ground Radar).

The only reason for traffic received by PilotAware not to be sent to SkyDemon is if your settings in PilotAware Configure are set to prevent this. You should make sure that you have...

Bearingless Contacts Settings (Mode-C/S)

‘Mode-C/S Select’ set to ‘Mode CS + Filter’ (+ Filter if you are running a transponder)

‘Mode-C/S 3D’ set to ‘Enabled’  to receive MLAT (if available from local Ground stations)

‘Mode-C/S Sensitivity’ set to ‘Short’ or ‘Medium Range’  I suggest ‘Medium’ or even ‘Long Range’ for initial testing, dependent on quantity of traffic.

‘Mode-C/S Vertical Display Range’ SDR initially to +/- 2000ft (or greater for testing).

Positional Contacts Settings (P3i, ADSB, FLARM and MLAT - where available)

These were introduced to allow limits to be set for Electronic Flight Bags (EFBs) which don’t have range setting options. When using EFBs which do, like SkyDemon or EasyVFR, leave these on the default maxima and set range limits in your EFB.

Having said all that, are you sure the other aircraft was transmitting ADSB - it sounds much more like a FLARM or Mode-S scenario?

If it definitely was transmitting ADSB, I suspect that the problem was a very bad case of antenna blocking.

If you have mounted Rosetta and the Flarmbat underneath the coaming and you are using the standard antennas mounted to Rosetta, there will be a high probability of both the P3i and 1090 signals being blocked by your engine, firewall and aircraft metal bodywork between your  antennas and that of other aircraft. If that is the case, you need to consider either resiting the Rosetta or using remote antennas.

Ground Station: Unfortunately, although PWNKRock at Neuenkirchen and PWETHEBQ at Salzburg both show on my ‘Stations List’ in our Database and on glidertracker.de and the ognrange sites, a search under ‘My Aircraft’ in our database using your Hex ID from my login fails to bring up any report.

I see no mention by the way of a station PWEDWN on our database nor can I find it on glidertracker.org or Glidertracker.de, though there is a Flarm-only station EDWN1 located at Flugplatz Nordhorn Lingen - but not on the PAW network. Both PWNKRock and PWETHEBQ report on both Glidertracker and https://ognrange.glidernet.org .

I will ask Chris, Lee or Keith to check again against your HexID as my Database access is restricted - they all have wider access.

Best Regards

Peter


Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: Kurt37 on August 02, 2020, 02:48:22 pm
https://ibb.co/f8ST5cf (https://ibb.co/f8ST5cf)

I have attached a pic to show where the unit is. It is in front of the dash under the coaming, if that is the correct word. The Cessna has a 12cm lip that extense rearwards into the cabin. The reason to that was to avoid obstructing the view. The pic shows dummy parts made out of cardboard, so we could think of a way of attaching before the parts arrived. The final solution will be a 3D printed box, with appropriate outlets. The flarmdisplay sticks out of the front and is easily visible.
The GPS of the Flarmbat is under the coaming, if that description was confusing I hope the picture explains it. However the GPS is no problem.


Reg my traffic problem:
Adsb reception is good, 50km+. The antennas sticks out above the coaming.


The traffic I mentioned was an ADSB Out, because I know that aircraft.
What confuses me: he was visible at all times in the PAW Radar, so I can rule out antenna blockage, mode s only etc. The fact that SD and PAW were not matching makes me think. All SD traffic Settings were set to max. In my understanding everything PAW radar see-> SD sees? and that wasn't the only traffic that didn't show up in SD? What could be wrong?
I'm flying tomorrow for test flight #2 and will post more pics and results.

Kind regards

Patrick

.
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: exfirepro on August 02, 2020, 03:57:43 pm
Thanks Patrick,

The photo of the ‘mock-up’ certainly helps make things clearer. I look forward to seeing your photos of the actual installation.

With regards to your traffic problem, and bearing in mind my earlier suggestions, the only other things I can think to ask is What type (make/model) of tablet are you using for your SkyDemon display? and Which ‘Device Connect Setting’ are you using (in PilotAware / Configure) ? I assume as it is a brand new Rosetta it is running Software Version 20190621 (displayed on the PilotAware Home Screen).

If you want to see pure Mode C and Mode S (as warning rings around your aircraft) as well as ‘Known Position’ targets, you must use ‘PilotAware UDP, both in PilotAware and in SkyDemon/Setup/Third Party Devices, then ‘Go Flying / Use PilotAware’. The GDL90 option won’t display ‘Bearingless Targets’.

With the exception of the range settings I covered earlier, I can’t think of any other reason off hand why you would see traffic on PilotAware Radar and on the PAW Traffic Screen but not on (presumably) the same tablet on SkyDemon.

Anyone else got any ideas,... Lee?

Regards

Peter
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: Kurt37 on August 02, 2020, 04:08:57 pm
Here is another pic.

https://ibb.co/n6hJ20P (https://ibb.co/n6hJ20P)

Yes I would like to see bearing+all bearingless targets in SD.
I am using an iPad mini 5, settings were TCP UDP auto and in SD Flarm with air connect. Using pilotaware didn't work with an iPad mini. So following your suggested settings, my selection is wrong.

I also have an android phone, which in SD works with pilotaware selection. I might check that tomorrow to see if that works. Anyhow I will change to UDP.
All software versions on all devices are new and up to date.
The same tablet was used for PAW and SD correct.

Kind regards,
Patrick
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: exfirepro on August 02, 2020, 07:22:00 pm
Patrick,

Ah, that clarifies things.

You need to use the same setting in PilotAware / Configure and in SkyDemon / Setup / Third Party Devices (sorry I can’t do the German, despite my Great-Grandparents being from just south of Hanover).

I suggest you set both to PilotAware UDP. You shouldn’t use the FLARM /Air Connect Option in SkyDemon as the FLARM traffic is already being integrated in PilotAware via your RS232 to USB lead and will be transferred to SkyDemon as part of the combined traffic signal by UDP - and you aren’t using an Air Connect!

That would explain the problem. PAW Radar will be getting the traffic as it takes it’s feed straight from the PAW WiFi but SkyDemon won’t.

Best Regards

Peter
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: Alanr on August 04, 2020, 04:05:35 am
Following this thread I have found very interesting from the use of a Flarm display viewpoint and the connection of Rosetta to FlarmBat.
What I would like to know though has anyone tried connecting via RS232 Rosetta to a separate Flarm V3+display or the LX equivalent small display?
I suppose the question is, is the Rosetta protocol output compatible with the V3+?....this thread has suggested it just might be?
 
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: Kurt37 on August 04, 2020, 06:30:22 am
Experiences from yesterday's test flight:

The good:
Flarmbat+Rosetta worked perfectly. I have an average range Flarm range of 12km all-round with two internal antennas.
Reg. Rosetta I was connected with OGN-R1 I would say over 30km. Maybe some one can check that range? Adsb in flight range 40km++. GPS very accurate,no drop offs. Constant green or blue flag in SD.

The bad:
SD: Same or even worse problems. Rosetta radar showed traffic (gliders mainly) but it took SD such a long time to display them (only when we got significantly nearer SD displayed traffic. Settings for that USB port Rosetta: UDP, Flarm in 19200 baud, UDP with pilotaware selection. Flarm out on the Flarmbat 19200 baud. Flarmprotocol version I am using 4, what is yours Peter? (Other values are default, 5,6,7) AFAIK there is no horizontal filter in SD. At it can't be the Flarm settings because then rosetta wouldnt see them. That also applies to the filters with the Rosetta, otherwise the Rosetta radar wouldnt see the traffic.
There is something wrong in the communication between Rosetta and SD?

I was sometimes confused by mode S traffic. I have the feeling that it was picked up by Flarm (or maybe ADSB) as a bearing target but the same traffic appeared as a Mode S traffic with their transponder hex code. I was in controlled Airspace and there was definitely only one traffic.
Is that possible?
And while we are on the subject mode S. What does the filter ultra to long range actual mean for me when flying? Can you translate that into approx distances? (E.g. ultra 5nm, short: 1nm?). I have the setting on long and the target was quite far a way.

Kind Regards,
Patrick

Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: exfirepro on August 04, 2020, 08:13:50 am
Hi Alan,

This has been discussed in the past on several threads, both on this Forum and on the ‘Flyer’ Forums. IIRC there are technical reasons why it doesn’t work. I’m certainly not aware of anyone actually getting it to work, or even reporting trying to.

PilotAware can certainly output data via its USB ports using the FLARM protocol, and this has been used successfully (via USB to RS232) to display traffic on external displays like Dynon, but IIRC it doesn’t output the data in the form required to drive these LED displays.

It was in fact in response to the wishes expressed for a simple small display option that Lee developed the ‘PilotAware Radar’ option, which will display on a small smartphone or tablet for those who don’t want (or don’t have room) for a larger tablet or don’t want to have to run (or pay for) an EFB type navigation system.

This was also the prompt which encouraged James Rose to develop his ‘Radar3D’ App for use as a 3-dimensional Traffic display on smartphones, and which subsequently led to the development of the Aircrew Display I mentioned a few posts further back ^^^ see http://aircrew.co.uk

Regards

Peter
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: Alanr on August 04, 2020, 08:35:56 am
Thanks for the quick reply Peter.
That is a disappointment that a V3+ or simiar LED just wouldn't work with Rosetta. Having a dedicated traffic display in the small size format of these small LED display units is what appeals. I don't want Traffic and Nav mixed up in on an EFB it creates just too much screen clutter.
Also the Aircrew unit whilst a brilliant initiative it presently is just too large for my panel, so perhaps I will just have a look again at the Pilotaware Radar option.

Thanks again,

Alan.
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: exfirepro on August 04, 2020, 09:11:55 am
Good Morning Patrick,

Thanks for the update. Positive news on your FLARM Range and use of the FlarmBat GPS to drive the whole system.

We need to get our heads round what is causing the problem with SkyDemon. I need to give that some more thought and maybe try a few things.

Re the Mode S Traffic - Pure Mode S transmits no position directly, just altitude and Hex ID, so can’t be shown as an aircraft at a specific position by SD (or any other display). Instead it shows initially on SD as a Green ‘Warning Ring’ around your aircraft. The ring should then get smaller and change Green -Orange - Red if the aircraft continues to get closer to you. For Mode S the Reg and Relative Altitude (+/- to your own) will be displayed at the ‘12 o’clock’ position on the ring. For Mode C ( no Hex) this shows as Relative Altitude + ‘C’. These rings are controlled by the strength of the received Mode C or S signal. The Rosetta Mode C/S ‘Range’ setting is actually a sensitivity control, which varies the strength of signal needed to trigger each ring - hence closer for Short - much farther away for Long.

The actual distance at which each ring is triggered depends on the transponder (GA around 100Watts - Commercial up to 500 Watts) and on your receiver antenna setup, so we can’t give a specific distance. The system was set predominantly for GA, so on Medium Range the first (Green) Warning ‘should’ be received at somewhere between 3 and 5 miles. If that’s too far out, fly on Short Range. Ultra-Short is only for use when regularly operating from or very close to a commercial airfield. Long Range is only used in very low traffic areas or for testing.

In the case of the aircraft you describe, when you say the same traffic appeared as Mode S Traffic with their hex code - do you mean in the PilotAware Traffic Table or on Screen in SD?

Let me think more about the SD and Mode S issues and I’ll get back to you later.

Best Regards

Peter
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: PaulRuskin on August 04, 2020, 11:31:55 am
Following this thread I have found very interesting from the use of a Flarm display viewpoint and the connection of Rosetta to FlarmBat.
What I would like to know though has anyone tried connecting via RS232 Rosetta to a separate Flarm V3+display or the LX equivalent small display?
I suppose the question is, is the Rosetta protocol output compatible with the V3+?....this thread has suggested it just might be?

I've had a PilotAware integrated with an LX9070 moving map, Flarmview 57 traffic display and V3 alarm for a couple of years.  The Flarm output from the 9070 goes to the PilotAware and to the V3.  The PilotAware adds PAW and ADSB traffic which is then displayed on the Flarmview (a small traffic screen), and also sent back to the 9070 to be displayed on the moving map.  I'm using RS232-USB convertors on both input and output of the PAW.  I would expect that all the traffic would be displayed on Skydemon if I had one connected to the PilotAware (it's a glider, so I don't).

I put the V3 on the output of the Flarm (not the PilotAware) for two reasons. 

Firstly, there are two types of NMEA traffic sentences in the Flarm spec.  One is a traffic message, and the other is an alarm message (the highest priority piece of traffic which is likely to hit you).  Flarm produces both types of message, PAW only the first - it leaves it up to the receiving instrument (such as SkyDemon) to make the assessment of whether the traffic is a threat.  The V3 displays only alarm messages, so there's no point in attaching it to the PAW output.  The Flarmview however, displays the traffic, so it works (though won't alarm for ADSB or PAW traffic sent by the PAW).  However, I would expect a connected SkyDemon display to alarm on either. 

The second reason is that I want to see Flarm alarms even if the PAW isn't working for some reason (that doesn't seem to happen, but I'm being cautious).

Paul


Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: exfirepro on August 04, 2020, 01:12:47 pm
Hi Paul,

Thanks for that. Likewise, I run my LXNav FLARM display in parallel with the feed to PilotAware, so I get FLARM warnings straight from my FlarmMouse. I knew there was a reason why the output from PilotAware wouldn’t drive the V3 (or similar) displays properly, but couldn’t recollect earlier exactly what it was.

Nice to hear from you BTW - your presence has been missed.

Best Regards

Peter
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: exfirepro on August 05, 2020, 12:45:58 am
Patrick,

I have been giving considerable thought to the issue of traffic not displaying properly on SD when showing on the PAW Radar/ Traffic Screens. We need to evaluate this logically.

So, please confirm the following:-

Your tablet is connected to the (correct) PilotAware WiFi Hotspot.

You have confirmed the connection by bringing up the PilotAware Home Screen on your tablet browser via 192.168.1.1.

You are seeing the PAW Home Screen and the other screens - including traffic on the Traffic Screen and PAW Radar Screen.

You have the ‘Device Connect Setting’ in PilotAware Configure set to PilotAware UDP and have saved that setting by clicking the ‘Save’ button at the bottom of that screen and checking it has been saved.

You have set ‘Third Party Devices’ in SkyDemon/Setup/Third Party Devices to PilotAware UDP ONLY (for the purpose of this exercise de-select all other options).

You then select ‘Go Flying - Use PilotAware’ in SkyDemon.

Is this all correct?

Can you see any evidence of any SkyDemon Disconnects? (Either as messages on screen or as ‘gaps’ or red ‘dots’ in the SkyDemon/Logs/Playback on SkyDemon?

Can you provide any screenshots to show the settings / issues / visible traffic please.

Screenshots of your PAW Home, Configure and Traffic screens - preferably after the unit has been running for a while and is showing traffic - would also be useful for analysis / confirmation.

If this still doesn’t provide the answer, we will have to disconnect the cable between your FlarmBat and Rosetta (and reinstall the Rosetta GPS) to see if that solves the problem, but let’s get the screenshots and evaluate them first.

Regards

Peter
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: Admin on August 05, 2020, 07:28:46 am
Hi patrick
Please post a full/readable copy of your configure page

By default SD will only show traffic at +/-6000ft, could the traffic not displayed in SD be at higher altitudes?
Thx
Lee
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: exfirepro on August 05, 2020, 07:46:38 am
Lee,

In a separate post on the SD Forum, Patrick has confirmed he has SD 'Show within vertically' set to +/- 50,000ft - as I previously advised him to do so for testing. I've been over all the usual options, but waiting for the screenshots after final installation / setup. The only thing I haven't investigated yet is Patrick's comment a few posts back...

[I am using] Flarm in 19200 baud, (UDP with pilotaware selection). Flarm out on the Flarmbat 19200 baud. Flarmprotocol version I am using 4, what is yours Peter? (Other values are default, 5,6,7)

I don't remember ever changing 'protocols' in my FlarmMouse setup and it's in the plane so not to hand to check. I wondered if Patrick is talking about the Flarm Firmware Version, but from my recent update file I know we are already on to Version 7.00 and I would have thought his new FlarmBat would have been supplied with at least Version 6.60 or 6.63.

Edit: Can’t see how that would affect transmission of data already showing on PAW Radar to SkyDemon on the same tablet (iPad Mini 5) though.

The only other issue I can think of is a proximity issue of some sort - see Patrick's Pics.

Regards

Peter
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: exfirepro on August 05, 2020, 09:06:40 am
Lee,

OK, I have downloaded the latest 'PowerFlarm Configuration Tool' from the LXNav Website and now see what Patrick is talking about - it is the protocol used to configure the ports for transfer of data to the various external Flarm Displays. The default (described as 'e.g. for Garmin') and options '4', '6' or '7', though with no guidance or explanation as to which should be used when.

I have also had a look at my 'Classic Flarm Configuration Tool' which gives these options as '4/5', '6', '7' or '8' though with no recommendation or explanation and I can't remember what I set mine to. I will check later if I can find my 'spare' FlarmMouse, otherwise it will have to wait until I get to the plane (possibly tomorrow).

Off to re-read the FlarmBat Manual to see if that helps.

Regards

Peter

Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: Admin on August 05, 2020, 11:36:21 am
Hi Patrick

Can you provide a copy of the track file which was not displaying traffic on SkyDemon ?
You can also try loading it here
https://aircrew.co.uk/playback/

Thx
Lee
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: exfirepro on August 05, 2020, 09:17:26 pm
Lee / Patrick,

I've just been reading the FlarmBat Manual - downloaded from the LXNav website - to see if it throws any light on the problem.

Section 4.6 - on page 15 of the English version, indicates that Bluetooth is ‘permanently on’ on the FlarmBat and can’t be configured or turned off.

SkyDemon isn’t configured to use Bluetooth for traffic and specifically prohibits the use of Bluetooth Devices (such as GPS) if connected to a Traffic Source via WiFi.

If the iPad Bluetooth has been deliberately (or inadvertently) paired to the FlarmBat at any point it will presumably try to reconnect automatically every time it sees the source. Could this be the issue.

Patrick - have you ever connected to the unit's Bluetooth with your iPad? I would probably have tried it - if only just to see what happens.

The ‘acid test’ would be to make sure that Bluetooth is turned ‘Off’ on the iPad for the next test flight.

Edit - mainly FAO Lee: Forgot to mention - there is also a 'Warning' just beneath the LXNav PowerFlarm Configuration Diagram on page 27, which states:-        'For Bluetooth to operate properly, bound rate [presumably should read 'baud rate'] of the port must be set to 19200bps. If you changed bound rate for any purpose (ex.updating) make sure you set it back to 19200 if you want to use Bluetooth on that port.

This implies that Bluetooth is also automatically active on the RJ45 ports (providing baud rate is set to 19200). Could this be having an effect on data transmission? Probably less likely than direct transmission to the iPad, but outside my knowledge zone!

To answer Patrick's earlier question about Port Data Protocols,
Section 8.2, - from page 27, covers Configuration of the two RJ45 Data Ports (which can be configured independently). Unfortunately, the only advice it gives regarding choosing the appropriate Data Protocol (in very small print on page 29, - which actually relates to using the FlarmTool) - is that...

[Protocol] ‘Version 4 is typically supported by all displays*. Select a higher version if the display supports it to have access to all functions’,

... with the additional advice for Port 1 ‘Select ‘Version 3’ if Data sentences is configured as Garmin TIS.

* In our application, Rosetta would be deemed to be a 'display'.

Nothing visible in my own FlarmMouse Config files to help here, (I checked both units), so my advice would be to set the port in use for the RS232 to USB to ‘Version 4’ initially, - which Patrick seems to have already done - then, if thought necessary, progressively try the higher protocol versions and assess any change (improvement) in data transfer and go back one stage, if no further improvement is noticed.

The same section of the Manual also gives the following advice on Baud Rates...

Baud Rate (bit rate). Must match setting in attached display/equipment. Select at least 19,200 for advanced equipment. - or would you suggest going higher Lee?

Nothing else found in the Manual that appears relevant to the issues we are seeing.

Regards

Peter

p.s. still want to see the screenshots and track files Patrick.
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: Kurt37 on August 06, 2020, 06:54:11 am
Hi Peter,

systematical approach:

Your tablet is connected to the (correct) PilotAware WiFi Hotspot.
You have confirmed the connection by bringing up the PilotAware Home Screen on your tablet browser via 192.168.1.1.
You are seeing the PAW Home Screen and the other screens - including traffic on the Traffic Screen and PAW Radar Screen.
affirm

You have the ‘Device Connect Setting’ in PilotAware Configure set to PilotAware UDP and have saved that setting by clicking the ‘Save’ button at the bottom of that screen and checking it has been saved.
affirm

You have set ‘Third Party Devices’ in SkyDemon/Setup/Third Party Devices to PilotAware UDP ONLY (for the purpose of this exercise de-select all other options).
affirm, only PAW set, no UDP only option however visible

You then select ‘Go Flying - Use PilotAware’ in SkyDemon.
Is this all correct?
yes

Can you see any evidence of any SkyDemon Disconnects? (Either as messages on screen or as ‘gaps’ or red ‘dots’ in the SkyDemon/Logs/Playback on SkyDemon?
negativ, no disconnects
Can you provide any screenshots to show the settings / issues / visible traffic please.

If the iPad Bluetooth has been deliberately (or inadvertently) paired to the FlarmBat at any point it will presumably try to reconnect automatically every time it sees the source. Could this be the issue.
Patrick?
Bluetooth was not turned off as far as I can remember, I will do next time. Reg. Baud rates it is at 19200 waiting for Lee's repsonse to go higher on that.

Flarm Protocol Versions:
I will increase the versions step by step and monitor results



Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: Kurt37 on August 06, 2020, 07:09:05 am
here are screenshots from PAW Config and SD Config Menü. (and yes SD is set to +-50000ft, Bearingless targets on, I dont see any other setting possibilities in SD tbh).

https://ibb.co/x5Y3M88
https://ibb.co/DRV73kG
https://ibb.co/HNfzjd0




Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: exfirepro on August 06, 2020, 07:35:02 am
Morning Patrick,

Thanks for the update.

Please note - that while you would have been typing, I slightly amended my earlier post to add some additional info (mainly for Lee) after re-reading the FlarmBat Manual. The main issues, however, are the same.

Everything looks OK in your screenshots, except that I would reset 'Vertical Display Range' for 'Positional Contacts Settings' in PAW Configure to 'Display All' as this then passes all traffic to SkyDemon and lets the SkyDemon filters determine what is shown.

You are correct there is no 'UDP only' option - my bad punctuation - sorry. You have done what I meant you to!

I discussed your problem with Lee yesterday, which was why he asked for the track file. This is essential to let him see exactly what traffic was being passed to Rosetta and what was passed on to SkyDemon. At my request, Lee also did a search for your Hex ID on the network (he has full network access), but as with my search, with 'no result'. He will speak to our Network experts...

Best Regards

Peter
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: Admin on August 06, 2020, 07:38:49 am
Hi Patrick
Under Positional Contacts Settings
You have selected +/-4000ft

I think this is your issue, an aircraft at 5000ft above you will NOT be sent to Sky Demon
What settings do you have in your RADAR screen?

Thx
Lee
Title: Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
Post by: Kurt37 on August 06, 2020, 08:08:47 am
Hi Peter/Lee,

@Peter: I will reset the vertical filter to unlimited.

@Lee:
correct I have set that back to 4000ft, but the traffic that was at all times visible in the PAW Radar was within that range (there were only 400ft between us).
PAW shows all the traffic I want in a very reliable way, so i assume it has nothing to do with the PAW settings/filter. It is more the Interface between PAW and SD I guess.
Hi Patrick
Under Positional Contacts Settings
You have selected +/-4000ft

I think this is your issue, an aircraft at 5000ft above you will NOT be sent to Sky Demon
What settings do you have in your RADAR screen?

Thx
Lee

@Lee: regarding track file: you mean the file from the Rosetta, that is saved on the MicroSD Card? If so I need to get back home first to upload that file. Or do you mean the SD logfile?