PilotAware
British Forum => Technical Support => Topic started by: Vic on August 31, 2019, 05:01:35 pm
-
A friend sent me this. He was flying Andrewsfield to Stapleford. G-ELEN was outside a hangar being prepped for flight.
As he taxied past G-ELEN, his pilotaware put it over his aircraft in Skydemon. It remained there until he got three quarters of the way to Stapleford, warning him all the way, at which point he switched off his PAW due to the annoyance.
G-ELEN remained on the ground for the duration of his flight.
He sent me the attached screenshot and is using the latest PAW software and I can see nothing untoward with his configuration. I've asked him to send me the track log for that trip.
-
Is the log file available for Lee to look at when he gets back from the LAA Rally?
-
Hi Vic,
That’s a new one to me. The only thing I can think of is that the Pilot of G-ELEN might have been trying to ‘configure’ their PAW as your friend taxied past and his/her tablet might have inadvertently connected to the wrong PAW - but I could of course be talking complete rubbish :-\
As per Ian’s post above I guess Lee needs to see the Track Log. I’ll be very interested to hear the results.
Best Regards
Peter
-
I had something similar a while back.
Flying at about 3,000ft on a steady track, an aircraft popped up on screen, then it's position remained at a constant distance and bearing from me although it heading about 90 degrees to my track for about 3 or 4 mins.
I can't remember if I reset SD or PAW, but it disappeared as soon as.
Deker
-
Vic,
Thinking about this again in the cold light of day, can you check if your friend is running the latest (20190621) software - and if not, what version are they running?
This reminds me of a problem from some time back when a plane receiving Mode S and PAW lost one of them and effectively ‘dragged the other aircraft along’ - but Lee sorted it a long time back!
Regards
Peter
-
Hi Peter
Yes it's definately the latest SW version. His PAW is a fixed installation, I should get the TRK file on Tuesday
-
I just had a similar experience yesterday, flying Bidford back to Sussex. Getting airborne PAW came up with an alert of traffic 0.1m at our 3 o'clock. as we climbed that became 5 o'clock then 6 o'clock, always staying 0.1m distance, all the time with the large black bar similar to you have shown above with the warning. That stayed our entire route with a small red aircraft symbol superimposed above our symbol, but in reverse. After landing it all disappeared. Of course, after a short while from departure I figured this was a fault but the large black bar was annoying and hampering my Skydemon screen. With a turbulent flt anyway I could not find how to get rid of it. Most frustrating. I've got a permanent installation but when I get back to the airfield this week I'll get the flt track log and send it to Lee. Meantime I'll be contacting Keith to see what he has to say. I've only had PAW installed and running for 2 weeks and have had several issues which has severely dented my faith in PAW. Currently not sure the investment is worthwhile as I don't trust it.
-
Hi Adrian,
Yes the track file is required
Can I ask do you have any other EC devices on board ?
eg. Flarm, Mode-S Transponder ?
Are they all using a common ICAO Code ?
What is your reg/icao code ?
Thx
Lee
-
Hi Lee,
I have a funke mode S transponder connected to PAW for ADSB out, which I have confirmed with both Goodwood (local to me and running ADSB out test) and Solent Radar they are receiving. My reg is G-FOXW and my ICAO hex code is 406EB2. I spoke to Keith yesterday and when I next get to the airfield will run some more checks, tests and screen shots, including the track file for Sunday's flt, and send over to you.
Thanks
Adrian
-
It makes me wonder whether there are two things at play here, a bug in SkyDemon that makes it continue to display traffic erroneously, and in the case of the OP, he’d actually connected to G-ELEN’s unsecured PAW while on the ground.
-
Once we have the track data, we will be able to evaluate further
-
My friend went to collect the track log and found ( after initially sending me the return .TRK) that only that file was available, not the outbound. He's not 100% certain that he didn't delete it (is there a confirmation?) in one of his attempts to collect it though. . :-\
Graham, if he'd have connected to G-ELEN's PAW then surely it would have shown his own aircraft as a 'target' and shown him as stationary. ..And it certainly wouldn't have kept the connection for six miles out?
-
Graham, if he'd have connected to G-ELEN's PAW then surely it would have shown his own aircraft as a 'target' and shown him as stationary. ..And it certainly wouldn't have kept the connection for six miles out?
That's what led me to speculate that there may be two issues interplaying here, as you are not the only person who seems to have had 'persistent' non-existent traffic being displayed.
-
I have also seen this in Skydemon- all the way from Fairoaks to Bolt head and from Lands end to Popham. Hard install in the Aircraft so will need to plug into the unit to download the data files.
-
I need a track file to determine if we have latched traffic or not
Thx
Lee
-
I had a similar thing coming back from France recently. One aircraft stayed close all the way back across the channel.
But I ran the track file through the viewer and the aircraft was dropped soon after takeoff. Is this an issue with the way SD handles things?
-
I need a track file to determine if we have latched traffic or not
Thx
Lee
-
Hi Lee
I’ve had an experience of “latched” traffic on playback. I very rarely play previously recorded tracks but I needed to look at this one, but when I played it back, fast forwarding to the interesting bit, I found that a ground station and another plane had got “latched” to me.
Couldn’t work out how to attach the file to a pm so uploaded to box and sent you a link.
Cheers Geoffrey
-
Thats great, I will take a look
Thx
Lee
-
I've had this twice. Once a month ago and friend flying in loose formation with me had exactly the same, with the same "latched" traffic. Had it today too, on the way to Rougham. A C152 with Mode S only, red ring, sat with me all the way.
-
Rog,
That just sounds like there was another aircraft following your route?
Red ring (other colours available :D) will always be centred on your aircraft.
-
Rog,
That just sounds like there was another aircraft following your route?
Red ring (other colours available :D) will always be centred on your aircraft.
There's definitely a pattern of this issue because it happened to me today from Lee on Solent back to Sandy. In the circuit I noticed that GAWPW was above and behind me, but ‘stuck’ a constant distance behind, and apparently flying backwards!
En route realised that there was GMISJ, GKEVH and GCECL also stuck. GCECL was one of our group and according to my pilot aware he was flying through Southampton’s airspace at 0mph but 4000’ up.
GCECL eventually disappeared but I gained GCKDE.
Some screen shots and traffic captures below. Interestingly GCIJO and GCIGG are both appearing as zero km away, they were flying with me but not that closely! GCECL who was also with us is reported as 52km away.
When I finished the flight I turned off paw then turned it on again to download the track file; but found that nothing had been saved from this flight. Prior two flights today both logged ok.
Geoffrey
Ps: unable to upload the photos as they were too big, and after I’d shrunk them I found that the forum wouldn’t allow .jpeg uploads, only .jpg.
Here they are therefore in Dropbox https://www.dropbox.com/sh/rdnh4tuol2c8rny/AABF7_YMw8MHrZeq9UxVUDoma?dl=0
-
Ian,
No, it wasn't traffic following me, it was a defect.
The first time I noticed this, a friend and I were flying from Turweston to Redhill. We both had the same latched aircraft. I recycled my PAW enroute and the latched traffic disappeared. My friend didn't and it was still on his at Redhill. There was no third aircraft, the latched traffic was something in the circuit at Turweston when we left.
-
Hi Lee
I’ve had an experience of “latched” traffic on playback. I very rarely play previously recorded tracks but I needed to look at this one, but when I played it back, fast forwarding to the interesting bit, I found that a ground station and another plane had got “latched” to me.
Couldn’t work out how to attach the file to a pm so uploaded to box and sent you a link.
Cheers Geoffrey
Hi Geoffrey
Thanks for this, I loaded this into aircrew, and I do not see any latched traffic, are you only able to see this when you perform playback via SD ?
Here is the aircrew playback
https://aircrew.co.uk/playback/1094fe
There is an aircraft G-DYNA, which flies a parallel path - definitely not latched as its relative distance changes.
the fact that it is also pointing North looks like a transponder track error - we have seen this a lot on the Funke transponders
Can you indicate a time I should look at ?
Thx
Lee
-
Ian,
No, it wasn't traffic following me, it was a defect.
The first time I noticed this, a friend and I were flying from Turweston to Redhill. We both had the same latched aircraft. I recycled my PAW enroute and the latched traffic disappeared. My friend didn't and it was still on his at Redhill. There was no third aircraft, the latched traffic was something in the circuit at Turweston when we left.
Roger, can you supply the track file, this will allow us to investigate.
power cycling PAW would not necessarily indicate the latched data was from PAW, because SD would also clear its cache of aircraft as it lost connection.
a track file will help to determine.
Thx
Lee
-
En route realised that there was GMISJ, GKEVH and GCECL also stuck. GCECL was one of our group and according to my pilot aware he was flying through Southampton’s airspace at 0mph but 4000’ up.
GCECL eventually disappeared but I gained GCKDE.
Does GCECL also have a transponder in addition to PilotAware ?
if so do you know the manufacturer ?
Some screen shots and traffic captures below. Interestingly GCIJO and GCIGG are both appearing as zero km away, they were flying with me but not that closely! GCECL who was also with us is reported as 52km away.
This is more interesting. I notice you have vertical/horizontal filters selected. This is only really intended for systems such as skymap which does not have filters available, in SD, it has its own filters. So I am wondering if something screwy is happening with filters applied.
Thx
Lee
-
Attached the Track log from my cross channel flight and 3 screenshots from SD showing 2 aircraft (N95GT and f-GYKL) locked into the same relative position across the flight. The Aircrew track does not show this,
On another point. When you replay the track, which I did to get these images, the replay will pick up aircraft that are about now. For example on one image it shows an aircraftwithin close range - in fact it was sitting on the apron in front of me when the replay was running.
-
On another point. When you replay the track, which I did to get these images, the replay will pick up aircraft that are about now. For example on one image it shows an aircraftwithin close range - in fact it was sitting on the apron in front of me when the replay was running.
Peter,
This is a known phenomenon - if you replay PAW track files on PAW, it treats the track data as if it was ‘live data’ and if it is also receiving external data from it’s antennae, it will parse (combine) this and pass the combined data to the Nav Display. I don’t think this is what Geoffrey and the others are experiencing though as the initial reports are of apparently latched aircraft ‘in flight’ not during replay.
Regards
Peter R
-
Lee,
Strange that no Track Log has been created for this flight in Rosetta which would have allowed analysis.
From Geoffrey’s post yesterday, he seems to be reporting this as occurring ‘live’, during flight, which is indeed very strange - as from yesterday’s screenshots GAWPW clearly seems to be maintaining a relationship with Geoffrey’s ‘Ownship’ yet doesn’t appear in any of his Traffic Table screenshots at all.
This reminds me of a similar effect which if you remember Ian Corse from Perth experienced with latching PilotAware and Mode-S signals from the same aircraft back in February 2018 with Version 20180129 and which from my notes you fixed in Eng. Version 20180212. IIRC Ian’s plane was initially receiving both P3i and Mode-S direct from the other aircraft then lost the P3i signal due to separation, but PAW latched the last known P3i position to the Mode-S report. Could this be something similar?
Regards
Peter
-
Attached the Track log from my cross channel flight ...
Hi Peter
I do not see any attachemnts. If they are too large you will need to use dropbox/googledrive or similar
Thx
Lee
-
This reminds me of a similar effect ... Could this be something similar?
it does sound similar, except as you say, it does not appear in the traffic table
thx
Lee
-
It could of course have been in the Traffic Table initially, then dropped out, but if this was the same (or similar) effect to Ian C’s then its Mode-S would still need to be being received (and visible in the Traffic Table).
Peter
-
"Hi Peter
I do not see any attachemnts. If they are too large you will need to use dropbox/googledrive or similar
Thx
Lee"
How do you do that?
-
"Peter,
This is a known phenomenon - if you replay PAW track files on PAW, it treats the track data as if it was ‘live data’ and if it is also receiving external data from it’s antennae, it will parse (combine) this and pass the combined data to the Nav Display. I don’t think this is what Geoffrey and the others are experiencing though as the initial reports are of apparently latched aircraft ‘in flight’ not during replay."
It was the same for me crossing the channel.
-
"Hi Peter
I do not see any attachemnts. If they are too large you will need to use dropbox/googledrive or similar
Thx
Lee"
How do you do that?
Hi Peter,
Dropbox is a ‘free’ file storage and transfer utility provided you keep storage within a 2Gb limit.
You can download the Dropbox ‘App’ from your ‘App Store’ or from https://www.dropbox.com/en_GB/
Once you have done this you copy the files / photos you want to transfer to a folder inside your Dropbox, then select that folder and...
On a PC right click on the relevant Dropbox folder and select ‘Copy Dropbox Link’ then paste the link into an email or post it on here.
On iPad or Android device click on the relevant Dropbox folder, select the ‘Share’ button and share by email or create a share link then post the link on here.
Hope this helps.
Regards
Peter R
-
Lee,
Are you saying that it is a waste of time setting horizontal/vertical filters in PAW CONFIG when using SD ?
Phil
-
Lee,
Are you saying that it is a waste of time setting horizontal/vertical filters in PAW CONFIG when using SD ?
Phil
All the EFB packages I have seen, have the ability to set their own filters, SD, EVFR, AirNavPro etc.
The Horiz/Vert filters were specifically added for those tools which do not have filters, I know skymap is one of those, but cannot recall the others.
It seems to cause confusion, we have had calls where users say 'I have set the SD filters to X, but not seeing traffic', and then we see that they have made adjustments in PilotAware, in effect causing a first stage of filtering before even reaching SD
I am surprised to see the posting of traffic at a distance of 0 for the other PilotAwares, this needs investigation, and I am wondering if it is somehow related to the filters being set.
thx
Lee
-
Hi Lee
I’ve had an experience of “latched” traffic on playback. I very rarely play previously recorded tracks but I needed to look at this one, but when I played it back, fast forwarding to the interesting bit, I found that a ground station and another plane had got “latched” to me.
Couldn’t work out how to attach the file to a pm so uploaded to box and sent you a link.
Cheers Geoffrey
Hi Geoffrey
Thanks for this, I loaded this into aircrew, and I do not see any latched traffic, are you only able to see this when you perform playback via SD ?
...
Can you indicate a time I should look at ?
Thx
Lee
Hi Lee,
Until I 'discovered' aircrew on the weekend I was using PAW to playback the traffic. I was fast forwarding the playback up until when I was transiting through Stansted TMZ and out the other side. I FF'd (up to 16x I think) to get to roughly the right place and ended up with latched traffic including a ground station and another plane that was a bit behind and above me. Here's a video of the playback on PAW https://photos.app.goo.gl/JD1YQKRuhnxWV4P36
When I play back in aircrew it doesn't show any traffic that I don't expect it to.
Geoffrey
-
Hi Geoffrey,
Now I’m confused, so to confirm. We’re you seeing the ‘latched traffic’ during the flight itself or just during playback via PAW onto SD?
Regards
Peter
-
Does GCECL also have a transponder in addition to PilotAware ?
if so do you know the manufacturer ?
Some screen shots and traffic captures below. Interestingly GCIJO and GCIGG are both appearing as zero km away, they were flying with me but not that closely! GCECL who was also with us is reported as 52km away.
This is more interesting. I notice you have vertical/horizontal filters selected. This is only really intended for systems such as skymap which does not have filters available, in SD, it has its own filters. So I am wondering if something screwy is happening with filters applied.
Thx
Lee
GCECL has a transponder plus PAW, as does GCIJO. GCIJO is a Funke. I *think* GCECL is a Trig but I can check if you want to know.
I checked the screen shots I took of my PAW config and I have 'display all' for horizontal display range and '+/- 2000ft' for vertical range. I probably set it to this for when I used to use the PAW Radar screen to filter out overflying commercial jets, and hadn't changed it since moving to Skydemon over a year ago. No issues to take it off now.
Geoffrey
-
Hi Geoffrey,
Now I’m confused, so to confirm. We’re you seeing the ‘latched traffic’ during the flight itself or just during playback via PAW onto SD?
Regards
Peter
Hi Peter, sorry for the confusion.
I don't recall any evidence of latched traffic on the flight on 2nd August, but when I tried to playback the track on PAW I definitely did get latched traffic. Here's a link to the video of the playback https://photos.app.goo.gl/JD1YQKRuhnxWV4P36 and you can clearly see another plane and a ground station following along with me.
Quite separately, yesterday, I experienced multiple latched traffic, in flight. Screen shots of skydemon and the PAW traffic screen attached yesterday. Most of the planes stayed latched all the way through the journey but some appeared and disappeared en route.
Geoffrey
-
Hi Geoffrey,
Thanks for that. I’m not convinced that the planes were latched*, but there is no doubt with the Ground Station, though as I said in my earlier post above, that wouldn’t be unusual if you were replaying a PAW Track file and receiving the local Ground Station ‘live’ via your PAW antenna at the same time.
* In your video, D-KLUB for example could easily have been following you on a parallel track.
Hopefully Lee can make more sense of what is going on, but he needs the track files from original flights (IIRC Track Replay creates its own files containing any combined ‘live’ traffic from during the replay).
Regards
Peter
-
Hi Geoffrey,
Thanks for that. I’m not convinced that the planes were latched*, but there is no doubt with the Ground Station, though as I said in my earlier post above, that wouldn’t be unusual if you were replaying a PAW Track file and receiving the local Ground Station ‘live’ via your PAW antenna at the same time.
...
Regards
Peter
Hi Peter,
You’re right to be sceptical of course, and when I first saw the playback I too thought I was being followed, but the plane behind and the two in front all stay exactly the same distance and height displacement from me, even when I climb or turn.
Some of this was similar to what happened live on Sunday, planes exactly same position horizontally and vertically separated, and as I mentioned I believed that g-cecl was infringing airspace when it wasn’t (photo of this in the folder from yesterday).
There isn’t a ground station at Sandy when I was playing this back although there is one about 4 miles away en route.
One other thing to add, this latched traffic on replay wasn’t a one off. It happened several times with slightly different traffic positions depending on how long I ran with fast forward. I did try no fast forward but I think the same happened.
I’ve sent Lee the track file, and replaying on aircrew doesn’t show any of this traffic.
Geoffrey
-
Good Morning Geoffrey,
Thanks for the additional feedback. Please understand that I’m not doubting your reports in any way. I am extremely concerned by the proliferation of reports of ‘latched aircraft’ and am just trying to understand what is going on and help try to find an explanation.
During early testing as part of the initial development of PAW Replay (back when there were only 4 or 5 PAW Ground Stations in existence), we realised that when tracks are replayed on PAW with the antennas in place, any traffic being received ‘live’ by PAW during the replay combines with the track file and gets shown on the Nav System display as if it is part of the original track file. The only way to avoid this was to pull the 1090 SDR (close by ‘high power’ 1090MHz signals can still be received through the pigtail without the antenna in place) and disconnect the P3i antenna to prevent reception of any local direct (or rebroadcast) P3i. Ideally of course, to protect the transmitter, the P3i transmit side should be turned off by selecting ‘Aircraft Type’ to ‘Base Station Rx’ in ‘Configure’ before removing the P3i antenna.
This results in ‘clean’ PAW track replays. The same thing is achieved by downloading the original Track Log and running it in Aircrew Replay as there is of course then no opportunity for ‘live’ traffic to interfere.
In your case, although at the limit of range ‘on the ground’ at 4 miles, it is still ‘possible’ that the nearby ground station is the one that is following you on the replay. I can’t of course comment on the other aircraft, though I wonder if they are also in some way linked via the Ground Station. Lee is obviously much better placed than me to determine this via track analysis, (without the necessary Linux skills and equipment I can only do this by manually examining the track logs which takes an inordinate amount of time) which is why he needs original track logs from everyone experiencing this phenomenon.
Together we will get to the bottom of what is going on and Lee will be able to devise a ‘fix’.
Best Regards
Peter
-
"Hi Peter,
Dropbox is a ‘free’ file storage and transfer utility provided you keep storage within a 2Gb limit."
Thanks for that
Attached is the dropbox link.
As in the other cases above, when the track is run through Aircrew, these aircraft don't appear, so I would guess there is something in the interface with SD that is causing this.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7bxoasdpgkbulsj/AADyKTJ6SkAecyre2YoWBkofa?dl=0
Regards
Peter
-
Hi Peter
(and others interested)
As in the other cases above, when the track is run through Aircrew, these aircraft don't appear, so I would guess there is something in the interface with SD that is causing this.
Actually this data is EXACTLY the same data that is streamed to SD, except it contains some additional debug messages.
SD only gets the $GP (GPS Data) and $PF (Flarm Dataport) messages
Are the screenshots from the live reception of the data during flight, or a replay ?
So based upon the track file provided, can you tell me at what point in the flight I should take a look at where traffic is latched ?
Thx
Lee
-
@PeterG
I think I see what is happening here
The screengrabs from SD are not LIVE traffic they are REPLAYED traffic.
There is a long standing issue with replay tracks containing bearingless targets, this is why we recommend the use of aircrew.
With bearingless targets there is only an X co-ordinate provided, and the Y is omitted, but during replay this gets replaced with a 0.
Aircrew handles this better, that is why you do not see this on the screen, in fact if you scrub to the point where N95GT was seen, this is reported as a bearingless warning in Aircrew
So can I ask has anybody got a definitive track file where a 'latched' aircraft was seen live ?
if aircrew sees this same latched aircraft, that is a definite BUG in PilotAware, if not it would be a bug in SD, but the original traffic must have been seen live.
I guess I have a TODO to either remove the traffic playback and only recommend aircrew, or fix it to handle bearingless targets
Thx
Lee
-
Hi Lee
From my first post in this thread, the image presented was a screenshot definately taken in flight. The .trk file, when download was attempted, was missing. I notice another contributor with similar experiences has also reported that the relevant Track file was missing.
Could this in any way be a contributory factor?
-
@vic
I see your logic, but cannot think why that could be the case, but will give it some thought
Thx
Lee
-
Hi All
I have emailed everyone directly for their track files who have reported seeing this, this includes
AdrianW
HarryS
PeterG
jollyrog
I am looking for a track file where the 'latched traffic' was seen IN-FLIGHT in SkyDemon
Observing in a replay of PilotAware, is not representative of the issue, because bearingless traffic will incorrectly display as latched traffic
Aircrew will display correctly, as this is using the same GPS positioned traffic which SkyDemon will display
I am able to replay (with my own replay version) through SkyDemon to see if the latched traffic does indeed display, but I need the tracks to work from.
Thx
Lee
-
My friend went to collect the track log and found ( after initially sending me the return .TRK) that only that file was available, not the outbound. He's not 100% certain that he didn't delete it (is there a confirmation?) in one of his attempts to collect it though. . :-\
there is no confirmation when you press delete.
Thx
Lee
-
Attached is the dropbox link.
As in the other cases above, when the track is run through Aircrew, these aircraft don't appear, so I would guess there is something in the interface with SD that is causing this.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7bxoasdpgkbulsj/AADyKTJ6SkAecyre2YoWBkofa?dl=0
The reason why you don't see N95GT or F-GYKL on the Aircrew playback is because they are bearingless targets. You can see G-JFRV and G-EUXD on aircrew playback. I'm not sure why SkyDemon is showing bearingless targets as aircraft?
If you look at the track file if the 3rd field after the $PFLAA is empty then it means its bearingless
$PFLAA,1,4500,,-466,1,AD32F6!N95GT,,,,0.0,8*7C <-- bearingless
$PFLAA,2,3000,,-452,1,39614B!F-GYKL,,,,0.0,8*56 <-- bearingless
$PFLAA,3,164,190,14,1,404A43!G-JFRV,100,-0.5,25,0.0,8*69 <-- gps position
$PFLAA,0,-61624,493,9974,1,400AFC!G-EUXD,352,0.0,243,0.0,9*5F <-- gps position
(2019-08-24_13-25.trk)
(https://i.imgur.com/KDEIDOV.png)
-
The reason why you don't see N95GT or F-GYKL on the Aircrew playback is because they are bearingless targets. You can see G-JFRV and G-EUXD on aircrew playback. I'm not sure why SkyDemon is showing bearingless targets as aircraft?
Its a bug in the replay from PilotAware -> SD
the Y component is passed as '0', instead of empty
I think I explained this earlier, its not an issue in SD, and it is not seen in live traffic
this is simply a replay bug.
Thx
Lee
-
The reason why you don't see N95GT or F-GYKL on the Aircrew playback is because they are bearingless targets. You can see G-JFRV and G-EUXD on aircrew playback. I'm not sure why SkyDemon is showing bearingless targets as aircraft?
Its a bug in the replay from PilotAware -> SD
the Y component is passed as '0', instead of empty
I think I explained this earlier, its not an issue in SD, and it is not seen in live traffic
this is simply a replay bug.
Thx
Lee
So explains the latched traffic (including a ground station) I experienced in replay of a flight to Calais.
Any ideas about the latched traffic I experienced live on Sunday (screen shots posted separately). Unfortunately no track file appeared to have been created so I guess difficult to investigate it
Geoffrey
-
I had a similar thing happen yesterday, strangely enough while flying in a similar area. Pilot Aware was showing a target a couple of miles ahead on the same track and as I changed course, so did the target. Eventually it disappeared. I regularly receive warnings of traffic close by, either above, or below, and rarely see anything. I have switched off the 3D mode and configured everything to the shortest range possible but I have to admit, I am also losing faith in the equipment. I really appreciate the efforts of everyone involved in its' development but so far I am yet to be convinced! I sent my transponder back to Trig so I could have the software updated to allow me to take advantage of ADSB which has now caused me a problem with the CAA, but that's another story!!
-
There's definitely a pattern of this issue because it happened to me today from Lee on Solent back to Sandy. In the circuit I noticed that GAWPW was above and behind me, but ‘stuck’ a constant distance behind, and apparently flying backwards!
En route realised that there was GMISJ, GKEVH and GCECL also stuck. GCECL was one of our group and according to my pilot aware he was flying through Southampton’s airspace at 0mph but 4000’ up.
GCECL eventually disappeared but I gained GCKDE.
Some screen shots and traffic captures below. Interestingly GCIJO and GCIGG are both appearing as zero km away, they were flying with me but not that closely! GCECL who was also with us is reported as 52km away.
When I finished the flight I turned off paw then turned it on again to download the track file; but found that nothing had been saved from this flight. Prior two flights today both logged ok.
Geoffrey
Ps: unable to upload the photos as they were too big, and after I’d shrunk them I found that the forum wouldn’t allow .jpeg uploads, only .jpg.
Here they are therefore in Dropbox https://www.dropbox.com/sh/rdnh4tuol2c8rny/AABF7_YMw8MHrZeq9UxVUDoma?dl=0
I've been looking at flightradar 24 for some of the registrations that appeared live on Skydemon latched to my flight.
GAWPW flew from Lee on Solent to Jersey, and I remembered their radio calls as I was getting ready at Lee on Solent
GMISJ flew along the South coast on the Sunday afternoon, might have landed at Lee (there's a break in flight in PAW), but Skydemon shows it latched to me near Blackbushe
GCIJO, GCECL and GCIGG all flew back with me from Lee to Sandy, but appear on PAW traffic logs as 0km from me
So pattern on all of them were that I was near to them as I left Lee but they got 'stuck' latched to my track as I headed North.
I will go back and see if there is a trace file on my plane, but when I looked after landing there didn't appear to be.
Geoffrey
-
I'd love to find out who makes the transponders those aircraft are carrying. It would interesting if they were all the same manufacturer.
-
I regularly receive warnings of traffic close by, either above, or below, and rarely see anything. I have switched off the 3D mode and configured everything to the shortest range possible but I have to admit, I am also losing faith in the equipment. I really appreciate the efforts of everyone involved in its' development but so far I am yet to be convinced!
Hi Andy,
What type of warnings are you talking about here - on-screen or audio?
As a long term PilotAware Tester and co-developer of the original detection and trigger levels for ‘Pure’ Mode-S and Mode-C, I can assure you that the system generally works extremely effectively, provided the unit is correctly installed (with antennas having a good view of the surrounding sky) and filters are set appropriately in both PilotAware and the associated display system.
For known position targets (P3i, ADSB or FLARM / Mode-S/3D via OGN-R Uplink) received Aircraft will be visible on screen within the limits set in your Nav System /EFB. You should note that the known position traffic filters in PilotAware are designed for use only with EFBs which don’t have their own horizontal or vertical filters. For this type of traffic, you need to leave the filters in PilotAware ‘Wide Open’ and use the filters in your Nav System to determine what Traffic you see / hear, though I would urge you to get used to the system(s) with fairly wide open filters, then restrict reported traffic later when you are comfortable with the system performance.
For Bearingless (Pure Mode-C or Mode-S) Traffic, you need to set the Mode-CS Range in PilotAware. For general use, I recommend Short or Medium Range. If you set this Range too tight, you may not in fact get warnings at all until it too late. Bearingless Target display is BTW ‘Off’ by default in Sky Demon.
The one exception to this is when receiving Bearingless Mode-S alerts from Commercial Traffic using high-power Mode-S transponders (when you are outside the range of OGN-R Ground Stations). Because these signals are so strong, they trigger bearingless alert warnings when the aircraft can be still well outside visual range. Unfortunately, there is very little we can do about this, though you will fairly quickly recognise the unique ‘signature’ which results in an extremely rapid progress from ‘Green to Amber to Red’ or even straight to ‘Red’ with no preliminary warning. The same applies to the associated ‘Traffic Notice / Traffic Alert / Traffic Danger’ audio alerts. I suspect this may be what you are experiencing.
Please let me know if this helps.
Best Regards
Peter
-
Hi Peter - thank you for your comprehensive reply. I do fly in the vicinity of Stansted Airport quite a lot so I am probably picking up some strong Bearing-less Mode-S alerts from Commercial Traffic like you have mentioned. Bearingless Target display in Sky Demon is set to ON but I probably could do with a bit of 'education' to check that everything else is configured correctly.
-
I had a similar thing happen yesterday, strangely enough while flying in a similar area. Pilot Aware was showing a target a couple of miles ahead on the same track and as I changed course, so did the target. Eventually it disappeared. I regularly receive warnings of traffic close by, either above, or below, and rarely see anything. I have switched off the 3D mode and configured everything to the shortest range possible but I have to admit, I am also losing faith in the equipment. I really appreciate the efforts of everyone involved in its' development but so far I am yet to be convinced! I sent my transponder back to Trig so I could have the software updated to allow me to take advantage of ADSB which has now caused me a problem with the CAA, but that's another story!!
Hi Andy
Please provide a track file and description of where in the flight to look, and we will investigate.
>>I regularly receive warnings of traffic close by, either above, or below, and rarely see anything
Bearingless or positioned ?
just because you don't see it, doesnt mean it isnt there :-[
Thx
Lee
-
Firstly, thanks for all the reports on this issue, especially everyone's persistence!
We have found a small issue when rebroadcasting MLAT that is causing this problem, unrelated to the data itself, and even when Mode-S/3D is disabled in PilotAware.
So we are going to disable MLAT rebroadcast for a short time, whilst we rollout a fix to the network.
Thx
Lee
-
There's definitely a pattern of this issue because it happened to me today from Lee on Solent back to Sandy. In the circuit I noticed that GAWPW was above and behind me, but ‘stuck’ a constant distance behind, and apparently flying backwards!
...
I will go back and see if there is a trace file on my plane, but when I looked after landing there didn't appear to be.
Geoffrey
Went back to the airfield today and checked my PAW to see if there was a trace file from that flight, and as after I landed, it wasn't available. I did check the trace from the previous flight just in case it had been merged in, but it hadn't.
Hopefully the issue Lee has found with Mlat broadcasts applies to me as well.
Thanks Lee for looking into this
Geoffrey
-
just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there :-[
Indeed, I regularly have the same problem with TCAS
- but I presume that TCAS is doing its job properly....!
RE
-
just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there :-[
Another problem is the lack of icon differentiation on the various displays. You are looking for an aircraft, when the contact might actually be a white (flarm) glider on a white background. And gliders are notoriously difficult to spot.
I did suggest more differentiation of aircraft icons, to both PAW and SD, but there is not too much progress on that. I see SD differentiates between aircraft and helicopters, which is a start.
RE
-
Another problem is the lack of icon differentiation on the various displays. You are looking for an aircraft, when the contact might actually be a white (flarm) glider on a white background.
I did suggest more differentiation of aircraft icons, to both PAW and SD, but there is not too much progress on that. I see SD differentiates between aircraft and helicopters, which is a start.
RE
SD shows different icons for different plane types.
A friend of mine configured his PAW with an aircraft type of bigjet- faithfully reproduced on screen as we flew together.
Geoffrey