PilotAware
British Forum => Technical Support => Topic started by: Smaragd on April 03, 2017, 08:03:39 pm
-
I have a TRT800 transponder and Dittel KRT2 radio. Have today at last managed to get PAW audio warnings working correctly with the KRT2 (the KRT2 manual isn't totally clear). I was surprised to find that I was receiving warnings about my own aircraft - though when I got home I realised that the wrong Hex code was set. However what also surprised me was that the warnings, and the aircraft entry on the traffic page, were there even when the transponder was in STBY. Is this to be expected?
-
Smaragd,
If you had the wrong hex code, PilotAware would naturally consider your transponder (and any associated ADSB transmissions) to be a threat. Regards the warnings you were getting for your own aircraft, is your transponder rigged for ADSB out? If so, it might transmit ADSB even when the transponder side is set to Standby. You would need to check the manual and/or consult your supplier.
Under normal circumstances, your transponder/ADSB signal will appear on the traffic screen as this holds all received signals - like a collection box, before sending only those selected by the software to the audio alerts and your Nav System.
A screen grab of your traffic screen would help by indicating the 'mode' for the signal, e.g. CSA-P = Mode C, Mode S, ADSB and P3i or whatever combination is being received from that contact.
Regards
Peter
-
Thanks Peter. Wrong hex code understood; I reset registration after the last upload; I just forgot to do the hex code.
The traffic line showed CS... ; the transponder is not set up for ADSB out (which the traffic line confirms). The signal strength was oscillating between Traffic Alert (most of the time) and Traffic Warning - irrespective of whether I was in STBY or ACS modes.
It should all be irrelevant now that I have corrected the hex code; I was just surprised at and curious about reception of a signal in STBY. As far as I know the STBY function of the transponder is working normally - ATC have pointed that out when I've selected a squawk but forgotten to select ACS!
-
Smaragd,
Strange one. I definitely wouldn't expect to see a signal from a transponder on standby and can't think why this should occur.
The hex code alone by the way will ONLY filter out your transponder if you have selected to receive 'Mode S' ONLY in the 'Mode C/S Select' part of your PAW Configure Screen and obviously if the correct hex adress is in both PAW and your transponder (worth re-checking). If you have selected to receive Modes C and S, you need to select 'Mode CS + Filter (Beta), or you will still get false alerts from the altitude transmissions from your transponder because of the way PilotAware has to 'learn' which is your own transponder without the benefit of Hex codes in case you were running pure Mode C.
If you still experience problems next time out try to get some screen grabs - especially the traffic screen - and get back to us so we can have another look.
Regards
Peter
-
Thanks again Peter. I had CS + Beta (Filtered) selected.
-
Check the software release level on your TRT800. I believe older versions (i.e 3.*) produced "squitter" transmissions every 1 or 2 seconds even when on standby. This would include broadcasting your registration (if entered in your XPDR) and your pressure altitude. The PAW would detect that. On software levels > 4.0 the squitter is inactive on standby.
Regards, Ray
-
Interesting, Ray.! My software standard is 4.8, though. Not directly a PAW matter, but I'd be interested in any information you have on the TRT800 (it's a reworked TRT600, not one of the later TRT800Hs). I had hoped to be able to use it for ADS-B Out as it claimed to be ADS-B Out ready, but I've connected it and it doesn't. I have been in touch with Funke following their Dec 2015 information letter on ADS-B for the 800H, to ask what the position is on the 800, but I have had conflicting answers and no clear position.
-
Hmmm.....ok. This is more complicated than I thought :(. Maybe there is a hardware and firmware issue and I'm not clear on the difference between TRT800 and TRT800H.
First, the empirical evidence. One of my friends has TRT800 with s/w 3.4 and I receive ES transmissions from him when he is in STBY. My other friend (and myself) have TRT800H (HW 5.0 SW 5.6) and we don't pick each other up when in STBY.
Second, an old TRT800 FUNKE manual says this:-
TRT800 / P/N 800ATC-(200)-(200)
Operation and Installation
Document-No: 03.2102.010.71e / Revision: 2.02 13
2.5 Transponder Mode selection
Press (repeatedly) to select from following Modes:
• STBY „Standby“
Transponder only responds to directly addressed Mode S
interrogations, squitter remains active.
If a ground switch is connected, actuation of this switch will cause
the transponder switch to standby mode.
The manual for my TRT800H in the same section states that ES is inactive when in STBY.
On ADS-B OUT, I have connected a GPS source to the TRT800H and am successfully broadcasting my position and altitude on ES. However I am not broadcasting my track which results in the position being shown on a receiving navigation tool (e.g. SKYDEMON) but with the aircraft icon always shown as NORTH up regardless of my track. I reported this to FUNKE who advise me that I need a software upgrade to resolve this bug and want to charge me a lot of money to do so :'(. Needless to say all my PAW P3I transmissions pass all of the information.
Regards, Ray
-
Ray,
I personally run a Trig TT21 with ADSB Out via a 'Byonics' GPS Unit - installed before I got involved with PilotAware, so I'm not really able to help with the Funke units, but finding your information very interesting nonetheless.
The difference between the companies is amazing though. Trig are happy to update units to the latest firmware free of charge. Might there be a way to use this fact to influence/persuade Funke, or do they just not care about their customers?
Always worth a bit of arm twisting in my experience. What have you got to lose.
Regards
Peter
-
Hmmm.....ok. This is more complicated than I thought :(. Maybe there is a hardware and firmware issue and I'm not clear on the difference between TRT800 and TRT800H.
First, the empirical evidence. One of my friends has TRT800 with s/w 3.4 and I receive ES transmissions from him when he is in STBY. My other friend (and myself) have TRT800H (HW 5.0 SW 5.6) and we don't pick each other up when in STBY.
Second, an old TRT800 FUNKE manual says this:-
TRT800 / P/N 800ATC-(200)-(200)
Operation and Installation
Document-No: 03.2102.010.71e / Revision: 2.02 13
2.5 Transponder Mode selection
Press (repeatedly) to select from following Modes:
• STBY „Standby“
Transponder only responds to directly addressed Mode S
interrogations, squitter remains active.
If a ground switch is connected, actuation of this switch will cause
the transponder switch to standby mode.
The manual for my TRT800H in the same section states that ES is inactive when in STBY.
OK, here's my limited understanding. For the plain TRT800, in STBY squitter remains active, ie unsolicited transmissions (unsolicited by an interrogator) are still occurring. PAW is just listening (not interrogating) so sees them (as presumably will TCAS?). The transmissions will not be detected by ground radar interrogations as they are not appropriate responses to an interrogation. They will also be outputted in response to a specific interrogation of that aircraft's ID by a Mode S ground radar.
For the TRT800H, extended squitter (ie a fuller data set) is inactive in STBY, nor does the unit respond to directed Mode S interrogations. As nothing is seen on PAW, I imagine that the whole squitter message is being suppressed, not just the extended part.
Does this make any sense?
-
Hmmm.....ok. This is more complicated than I thought :(. Maybe there is a hardware and firmware issue and I'm not clear on the difference between TRT800 and TRT800H.
First, the empirical evidence. One of my friends has TRT800 with s/w 3.4 and I receive ES transmissions from him when he is in STBY. My other friend (and myself) have TRT800H (HW 5.0 SW 5.6) and we don't pick each other up when in STBY.
Second, an old TRT800 FUNKE manual says this:-
TRT800 / P/N 800ATC-(200)-(200)
Operation and Installation
Document-No: 03.2102.010.71e / Revision: 2.02 13
2.5 Transponder Mode selection
Press (repeatedly) to select from following Modes:
• STBY „Standby“
Transponder only responds to directly addressed Mode S
interrogations, squitter remains active.
If a ground switch is connected, actuation of this switch will cause
the transponder switch to standby mode.
The manual for my TRT800H in the same section states that ES is inactive when in STBY.
OK, here's my limited understanding. For the plain TRT800, in STBY squitter remains active, ie unsolicited transmissions (unsolicited by an interrogator) are still occurring. PAW is just listening (not interrogating) so sees them (as presumably will TCAS?). The transmissions will not be detected by ground radar interrogations as they are not appropriate responses to an interrogation. They will also be outputted in response to a specific interrogation of that aircraft's ID by a Mode S ground radar.
For the TRT800H, extended squitter (ie a fuller data set) is inactive in STBY, nor does the unit respond to directed Mode S interrogations. As nothing is seen on PAW, I imagine that the whole squitter message is being suppressed, not just the extended part.
Does this make any sense?
Well it certainly makes sense but I have no idea whether your assumptions are correct. I've only ever had email exchanges with FUNKE and whilst courteous, any queries on specifics are simply answered by referral to existing user documentation which is less than helpful.
Peter..... TRIG do seem to be much more customer friendly. I've tried with FUNKE but they seem to be pretty adamant that any upgrades /bug fixes outside guarantee period are chargeable.
-
Hi Ray,
My commiserations. Certainly glad I bought a Trig!
Peter
-
Hi Smaragd
I have a plain vanilla TRT800.You may be interested in my upgrade experience. I had three instances of differnt ATCs saying they could not see me, so after changing everything else. I sent my TRT800 (originally purchased 24th May 2005 software v3.7?) to funke in October 2016. It was updated to Mod 10/11, software version 5.2, Firmware 102 and they added a new Rec board. Cost about £300, but v5.2 is still flawed. See this thread http://forum.pilotaware.com/index.php/topic,286.msg3971.html#msg3971
I understand that for ADS-B out to work correctly I need software version 5.3.
I asked funke if it was possible to update this transponder to v 5.3? I got this reply.
Dear Chris,
our new SW will be available approximately at the End of March/Beginning of April.
Regards ...
Funke are always very polite but no mention of an apology or a free update. I guess that will cost another £300!
-
There is no way that you should pay a further £300, that would be outrageous considering that the upgrade you had was not fit for purpose, assuming you are still within the warranty period (Oct 16)
I am sure they would not bill you again, would they ?
Thx
Lee
-
Not if they want to avoid lots of adverse publicity and loss of transponder sales!!
Peter
-
I don't want to hijack this thread, but thanks for your replies Lee and Peter. I'll see what they say.
Chris
-
You're welcome.
Regards
Peter :)
-
Just back from abroad so had missed the last few messages. The plain TRT800 has been unfit for purpose since it was first issued as publicity then described it as ADS-B ready.
I have previously had conflicting information from Frau Spengler about SW 4.8, and also had a message from her about the new release without describing what it applied to or what it did. I look forward to hearing more, and about any success in getting Funke finally to provide an ADS-B functioning capability.
-
Just sent my Funke TRT800 off for an update (Offered FOC after I complained at the proposed charge) - will see what version I get back and how well it works!
Cheers
Kev
-
Please let us know the outcome! What was your firmware version at the time of sending?
-
funke want 100 euros to upgrade my TRT800 so that ADS-B out works, even though it was upgraded in Oct 16! (It was 199 euros but they will give me 50% discount)
My answer may be a four letter word - TRIG :)
(I haven't decided yet.)
Chris
-
Thanks for the update. What upgrade was done in Oct 16?
-
Thanks for your reply, but to go back to your original question. I haven't experienced your problem with STBY. My manual said that the -
'Squitter transmitted at random intervals uniformly distributed over the range from 0.8 to 1.2 seconds'
I tried my TXPDR in the hangar and my PAW ground station (with autogenerated hex code). The PAW didn't show anything on STBY or ACS which wasn't surprising.
I put the aircraft well out onto the airfield, where it would get the occasional interrogation and I could see it on PAW, so mine seems to need interrogations.
My new manual which came with the upgrade to v5.2 says -
'STBY „Standby“
Transponder only responds to directly addressed Mode S interrogations, squitter remains active.'
What does squitter remains active mean? Is this what you are seeing on STBY?
The new manual also says -
'Transmission of position data is indicated by “p“ (type of squitter) in the upper line in the test mode'
but this doesn't work, if I unplug the GPS it still shows 'P'.
My original problem was having ATC unable to see me even though my TXPDR display was normal and even after I had cycled the power.
To answer your question - my TXPDR was updated in October 2016 to Mod 10/11, software version 3.7 to 5.2, Firmware to 102 and they added a new Rec board. Cost about £300.
I emailed funke to say that according reports on this forum, ADSB-OUT was not work correctly with v5.2 and they said that it can be upgraded to v5.3. They didn't say "Why do you need 5.3 because 5.2 is ok". so they are essentially admitted that 5.2 was not completely correct. The upgrade will cost 99.50 euros plus my postage and bank charges, but Once bitten ...
Chris
-
Chris - thanks for the update. It seems absurd that Funke supply you with a solution which doesn't provide you with ADS-B Out (which ought to have been there from Day 1, according to their literature at the time - "ADSB-ready"), and then you have to pay again for the update. I think I'll wait until things have definitely settled down and someone actually has a working basic TRT800 with ADS-B Out; don't want to be the guinea pig.
On my original query, my understanding is in my message of April 5. But as my status line in PAW shows CS... on STBY, it appears that squitter in STBY includes a limited message squitter.
-
I believe my Funke transponder works OK.
I took part in the original Nats ADSB trial using a handheld etrek gps to give the positional fix. I was tracked by Nats and they confirmed all was ok
On 01/10/2015 14:54, gps.trial@nats.co.uk wrote:
Hi Brian,
Just a quick message to let you know that your ADS-B has passed our criteria for the NIC and the SIL values so we are pleased to say your modification has been completed successfully.
Many thanks for your participation in the MODE-S GPS trial and we look forward to keeping in touch with you in future.
Best Regards,
Adrian Price
I have since incorporated PAW and use this to feed the Gps data and all appears to function as expected. Visible to ATC and showing on flightradar24
I have a Funke TRT800H version 5.2 102 software.