PilotAware
British Forum => Technical Support => Topic started by: Timothy on May 04, 2025, 05:59:14 pm
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I heard nothing in General Discussion (http://forum.pilotaware.com/index.php/topic,2433.0.html), so I'll try here:
I have FX, iPhone, iPad.
The FX connects to the iPhone for iGrid and iPad connects to FX by WiFi...all standard stuff.
The iPhone also runs SafeSky and SkyDemon on GDL90.
Why is it that (fairly often but not consistently) the callsign on the iPad shows the ICAO Hex code, not the reg?
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Another example:
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It could be that the aircraft in question has not been found on the lookup for some reason, so the box is displaying the ICAO ID by default.
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That would make sense but I have to admit I am seeing more and more HEX codes, whereas I used to see none. Quite often I'll see a HEX code and then iGrid kicks in and the registration appears.
I think SafeSky complicates matters, especially when there are loads of people who haven't set it up correctly and end up ghosting themselves but I think FLARM seems to upset the whole HEX/registration matter as well.
I don't really know why I have the registrations turned on. After all, it's not going to make any difference in avoiding. Turn the function off and that may solve the HEX code problem ;D
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Are the aircraft depicted in your screenshots coming from FX or Safesky?
Or can't you tell which system is providing those aircraft targets?
Tony
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I don't really know why I have the registrations turned on. After all, it's not going to make any difference in avoiding. Turn the function off and that may solve the HEX code problem ;D
I think there is some value, as you can link a radio call to a specific target. On more than occasion a numpty inbound on a similar track has reported a position when they’ve been at nothing like it according to the traffic display and the visual contact I may have had.
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I find the registrations or call signs invaluable. It greatly increases situational awareness in the approach to the airfield and in the circuit.
I’m glad it’s not just me seeing this new phenomenon.
The question is, what can be done about it?
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Are the aircraft depicted in your screenshots coming from FX or Safesky?
Or can't you tell which system is providing those aircraft targets?
Tony
I have two systems, which I believe to be independent. The two pictures are from an iPad which is connected by WiFi to FX, which is picking up a mobile data signal from the iPhone for iGrid.
It so happens that the same iPhone is separately running SafeSky and SD (connected locally to SS by GDL90) but I don't believe that there any data touchpoints between the two (it being annoyingly impossible to run a hotspot for iGrid while connecting the WiFi to PAW.)
So everything you see is pure PAW/iGrid, and SafeSky is a red herring. I can certainly run the whole thing when I next fly without SafeSky, so the iPhone is nothing but a hostspot for iGrid, but I know that I'll see the same.
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No word from PAW HQ?
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This is a long story.
in the FLARM protocol, there is no way to communicate the tailreg/flightID, only the ICAO code.
SD added an extension to the protocol, such that you could append a tailreg to the ICAO code, so in the message that goes from PilotAware to SD the ID changed from (for example)
400ABC
to
400ABC!G-ABCD
Unfortunately, this illegal syntax causes foreflight to crash.
So we try to detect in the following manner.
If there is only a PilotAware connection using UDP (when you tell SD to connect using PilotAware), we will send the registration.
If any device connects using TCP (which is used by Foreflight) we have to disable sending the tailreg, otherwise if the connection is foreflight - it will crash.
Can I ask how you are connecting SD to the FX, and is this the only connection to FX ?
I hear mention of safesky in this thread, I dont know if safesky connects using TCP to FX, if so we have to assume it could be foreflight
thx
Lee
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Well, at least a cogent explanation. ;D
There are two systems in the affected aircraft, and I don't believe that they are connected at any protocol level:
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I saw mention of SafeSky, is that not correct?
Can you describe in detail the connections to the FX and the software being run ?
Thx
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I thought that was exactly what that picture did?
Though a picture speaks 1000 words, I'll try again in words, mainly copying from the first post:
I have FX, iPhone, iPad.
iPad connects to FX by WiFi, running SkyDemon, using Pilotaware as its source.
iPhone runs SafeSky and SkyDemon, set to GDL90. It only uses mobile data.
The two iDevices are mutually entirely independent.
However, the FX connects to the iPhone for iGrid using the iPhone hotspot.
Unless you tell me differently, I do not believe that the FX using the iPhone as a hotspot would introduce SafeSky in any way to FX.
However, I am making four flights on Saturday, and I will simply run the iPhone as a source of mobile data for iGrid and nothing else, and see whether the problem persists. I am convinced it will.
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Interested to hear results of experiments
do you have the premium version of safesky that allows you to connect to Pilotaware, if so I am pretty sure that will be what causes the issue
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Indeed I do and I will check at the weekend, but I would be amazed if SafeSky can “see” PAW simply because it is using the iPhone as a hotspot!
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With SafeSky completely removed from the iPhone, I am still getting the same symptoms intermittently sometimes ICAO code sometimes Reg, even on the same aircraft. Sometimes alternating between the two quite rapidly, sometimes just stuck on one or the other.
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Indeed I do and I will check at the weekend, but I would be amazed if SafeSky can “see” PAW simply because it is using the iPhone as a hotspot!
arp -a
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In today’s experiment, I will use a burner iPhone, with almost nothing installed on it, only as a hotspot, to see whether I still see ICAO HEX codes.
Am I the only one seeing this? I feel quite isolated and unsupported.
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As already mentioned I, too, see lots of HEX codes without registrations.
There was an explanation on page 1 of why this might be.
I've never had SafeSky anywhere near my aircraft (and won't).
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Would it be helpful to download the PAW track file and see what is displayed using the PAW track replay utility, but also have a look with a text editor? If nothing else it will check that the erratic data is indeed being emitted by PAW but you never know what other clues may show up. You can also get some insight into the ultimate source of the data although this needs a bit of imagination as the log format is not documented. The joys of a closed system! Search for the ICAO code obviously. It seems that the source log entry $PAWRT is only written on first contact but you might, for example, see multiple entries if it is flipping between ADSB/PAW as the source perhaps. PM me the file if you like.
Alan
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I can report that with the burner phone used as a hotspot the problem persists, so this is definitively not a SafeSky Issue.
Comments like "arp -a" lead me to remind people that we are no longer in the world of Raspberry Pis and soldering irons. This is now a commercial product sold for a not inconsiderable amount of money, on the premise that it "just works."
Alan, that leads me on to saying that I would love to take you up on the offer to look at the log file, but I don't know where to start. Please give me step by step instructions (from an iPad.) Thank you!
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Timothy,
Sorry, I know you're techie but I obviously presumed too much PAW specifics. PAW maintains a text based "track" file for each flight containing useful information about, well, your track but also the traffic information sent to your downstream device, and other internal status information. Unfortunatey the format is not public but it's mostly obvious, although some records need a bit of "interpretation". You can download the file from the PAW to your tablet/phone but it sounds like this would need to await your next visit to the aircraft.
Hopefully you have used the PAW web interface on 192.168.1.1? one of the many items is (from memory!) TRACKS, displaying a date and time ordered list of files. Hit "Download" to copy any of them interest to your device. I'm not an Apple user so I'll need to leave you to figure out where they get stored and how to email them to yourself.
One official use of the files is via the flight replay app:
https://playback.pilotaware.com/playback/
Upload the track file and you can then drag the little white circle in the lower part of the display to replay your flight. You will see your own aircraft and also all the traffic that was reported during the flight. Hover or click on the traffic to see it's identity. If you can recall a situation of interest (and your posted screenshots would be examples) it would be interesting to see if the ID displayed corresponds.
Alternatively, and perhaps more interestingly if you're that way inclined, viewing the track file in a text editor will show the detail of what was sent to your device. Admin previously described the $PFLAA messages that convey traffic information, and the differing formats with and without callsign. I expect that this will simply confirm that PAW is at times just omitting the callsign but who knows? There may be some pattern or other clue.
About 5 seconds or so prior to the first $PFLAA message for a particular aircraft you should see a lengthy $PALOG message containing the it's hex code and which appears to convey (not very obviously) the source of the traffic. I assume this message indicates the first receipt of information about that aircraft (and BTW why the 5 second delay in informing the downstream device)? I wonder if this message might reveal anything.
Might be easiest just to send me the file? I'm not saying any of this will help, so don't go out of your way to retrieve it, but sometimes an indirect route leads to useful clues and as you say things have ground to a halt otherwise.
Alan (no connection to PAW, just a mis-spent youth).
PS should just add that I have a PAW Classic, not an FX but I hope and believe that the track logging functionality has not changed.
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I've seen lots of ghosting when the target has SafeSky on board, in addition to something else (ADSB Out, SkyEcho) but I know that is not the point of this thread and that is usually because they've got the free version of SafeSky and/or haven't bothered to set it up correctly.
The question is why are we seeing so many HEX codes. Is it my imagination or did this problem not exist with the Classic or Rosetta? Is it something to do with the way in which the FX processes the data?
The other thing I am thinking is is this being caused by seeing SkyEcho and/or Flarm in the target aircraft? My basic empirical evidence suggests I often see HEX codes with SkyEcho but I don't know if that is just coincidence or, again, the way the FX processes.
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Alan,
Thank you. It's going to be next week before I climb back aboard the little one with the FX installed, I will be living the life of "proper" TCAS until then, but I'll certainly have a go on the Web Interface then, thank you.
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I'll begin trying to replicate this issue on FX here.
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Spitfire G-TCHI just flew right over my house. My ATOM station only saw his HEX code, despite him being equipped with PAW and ADSB Out (not SkyEcho). He remained HEX code only until landing at Goodwood.
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I tried to download the Tracks from the web interface today, but there was no Tracks icon.
I asked ChatGPT (as I couldn't find anything helpful on the PAW documentation, and the engine was running) and it seemed to be saying that on the FX, you don't download from the device, but from the web. But I can't find where on the web.
I tried logging in to pilotaware.com (which it would only let me do if I consented to receiving marketing emails, which I suspect is illegal), but still couldn't find anywhere to download the files.
I'm really beginning to regret this purchase.
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I'm really beginning to regret this purchase.
Why, simply because you can't see a callsign?
What do you see on TCAS.......loaded question.
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No, but because it's all made so difficult.
Lack of documentation and consistency.
I spent ages in the aircraft, with the engine running, looking for the "Tracks" icon, finding no documentation as to where it was or how to find it.
Having to ask ChatGPT, getting home to find nothing useful on the website, trying to log on to the website to be told that I couldn't have a login in unless I agreed to accepting marketing emails, and not being able to uncheck that once I am logged and, having been through all that, there still being no way I could find to download the log files, so, presumably, the only thing I have achieved in an hour of faffing around is more spam.
Very little to do with absence of callsigns, but I am very aware that SE2 and SafeSky, my previous solution, "just works".
Since you ask... ;D
Oh, and yes, Garmin TAS shows callsigns, since you asked what you thought was a loaded question!
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Comments like "arp -a" lead me to remind people that we are no longer in the world of Raspberry Pis and soldering irons. This is now a commercial product sold for a not inconsiderable amount of money, on the premise that it "just works."
This was a thrown away comment to say this it is easy for any device to find out what else is on the network, and act accordingly. Just one line of code.
So if you say:
"Indeed I do and I will check at the weekend, but I would be amazed if SafeSky can “see” PAW simply because it is using the iPhone as a hotspot!"
I work with stuff that can see other stuff even when not on the same VLAN and with the ability to reconfigure network devices wrongly configured.
Very little to do with absence of callsigns, but I am very aware that SE2 and SafeSky, my previous solution, "just works".
Until you look at latency (SafeSky) and RF performance (SE2) - I've got side by side of SE2 and the older Rosetta in the same aircraft on the same flight. Just works... not for me. Ditto looking at SafeSky with aircraft flying over a reference point.
As I understand it, FX doesn't have log files. But I haven't looked at it for 4 months, as that aircraft has been getting fixed. Head over to playback and use the "groundstations" option for a track log.
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Head over to playback and use the "groundstations" option for a track log.
Sorry, but I still don’t know what this means.
I’d love to “head over to playback”and download a track lo, but is this on the web interface of the FX as Paul suggests (in which case where?), or on a PAW website, in which case which one? Vector? Do I need to log on to get my own data, or is it in the public domain?
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Head over to playback and use the "groundstations" option for a track log.
Sorry, but I still don’t know what this means.
Visit this URL, if that's a good enough explanation? Fill in the boxes with the correct data. Leave Stations set to all.
https://playback.pilotaware.com/playback/groundstations/ (https://playback.pilotaware.com/playback/groundstations/)
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Timothy, my apologies for wasting your time. I have the older PAW unit which records the track (and other data including received traffic information) internally. I didn't realise (and it's disappointing) that the new model no longer has that facility. Steve, if you look back you'll see that the ground based track logs won't help here.
Alan
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I’ve been to that URL, put in my ICAO code, put in All in both dropdowns, set the date and time to when I flew from Biggin to Sandown yesterday, with 3 hours set, and it doesn’t find anything.
I’m on an iPhone and can’t find a way of attaching a screenshot to this forum (yet another frustration! ;D)
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Isn't this you?
Alan
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Yeah, that looks like Timothy and I've had a gander at his recent tracks as well.
PAW good and ADSB good.
All that is very well but it doesn't tell us why he (and me) are seeing lots of HEX codes instead of registrations.
I'm not too bothered about it but it is definitely a 'thing' and it seems to have got more prevalent with the FX versus the Pi versions.
On the other hand, my ATOM station is a Pi and it is seeing plenty of HEX codes (including the Spit the other day). Could the common denominator be iGrid/Internet, instead of FX?
I will try and note, next time I see a bunch of HEX codes, if I have a green iGrid blob or not. If none appear when iGrid has disconnected (due to poor 4G) then it might provide a clue........possibly, maybe.
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That is, indeed, me. I don’t understand why I don’t get the same results from the same input
Today I flew in the other aircraft with SE2, but the same iPad and SD, and all the registrations were solid, so I hope that eliminates those two variables from the equation.
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Without wishing to sound patronising, are you dragging the lollipop (at the bottom of the screen) from left to right to drive the timeline?
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I can’t be patronised, the depths of my ignorance are boundless and yes!
I have done a screenshot of my iPhone and tried to attach it, but I’m told that the size of the the file is too great to attach.
This is yet another frustration. Why do they allow, even have a special button for, iPhone photos, and then not allow screenshots, the most obvious use of the feature?
Nothing seems to be tested by users before rollout any more!
Anyway, I have cropped it, let’s see if that works…
No, that doesn’t work because the cropped screenshot is a jpeg and it doesn’t accept jpeg.
It’s just one thing after another after another!
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So, I am now at my desk, and I get this.
What am I doing wrong, or different? This is driving me mad!
How are you all seeing me and I see nothing, on iPhone or PC browser?
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Why the asterisk at the start of the hex code?
Have you tried without it?
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It's an asterisk that's in the field and remains in there when you paste in the code!
Without it, it woks, thank you!
But, sadly, of course, it gets us no further. As others have said, it doesn't show what I have received and why.
I wonder if any progress has been made on this reg thing?
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Lots of HEX codes floating around today. The ones over Parham are likely to be Flarm, whereas the aircraft one the sea is probably SkyEcho.