PilotAware
British Forum => Technical Support => Topic started by: FlyingPastor on October 06, 2024, 08:13:27 pm
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When I am flying my SkyDemon, hooked to PAW Classic, shows me lots of other traffic. However, when I look at the vector chart and select PilotAware, it is apparent my unit stopped transmitting before the last licence change (and I did a software update then). I can see my ADSB just fine (trig transponder), but I can't see any Pilotaware transmissions.
Hex code is 407F92
And yes, I've checked the licence date is 2025 :) Although I assume if it wasn't it wouldn't be showing me traffic in any event.
PAW isn't receiving data via a mobile phone as I had my hotspot turned off. So the only reception is through the PilotAware aerial.
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In settings, check the setting for transmitting PAW has not become some silly speed.
In settings, check what your ICAO code is, it sometimes gets reset on software updates.
If the setting is not correct, write down the wrong setting before correcting it.
Check the incorrect ICAO code in Vector and see if it matches your flights.
Next time you fly, check for the corrected ICAO code.
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Thank you, both for the rapid response and its helpfulness. The issue was the Hex ID, so turns out I'm transmitting well. All fixed now :)
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Ok, so I made a silly assumption, still need help.
1. The suggested fix appeared correct, the Hex-ID was wrong and when I checked the incorrect Hex-ID I could see my previous flights.
2. I changed to the correct Hex-ID (407F92) and assumed all would be well ...
but it turns out that despite having 407F92 as the Hex-ID and 0kts as the aircraft transmit speed, my PAW still doesn't broadcast on PilotAware (but I can see all my ADSB transmissions). On SkyDemon I can see traffic, and on the PAW radar screen I can see traffic.
What am I missing (its a classic PAW and must be 7 years old or so)
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Double check the number has remained correctly entered and the licence is current?
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I have done ...
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I see the diagram here
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You have selected "all" transmission types, I have a transponder. If you just chose PAW as the transmission type it looks very different :(
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I agree it looks very different.
Can you describe your setup
1. What type of antenna are you using ?
2. Where is the unit located (if antenna attached to unit)
3. Where are the antenna located (if antenna are remote)
4. What type of aircraft construction, metal, wood ... ?
thx
Lee
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1. What type of antenna are you using ? - PAW External aerials
2. Where is the unit located (if antenna attached to unit)
3. Where are the antenna located (if antenna are remote) - antennas are below the aircraft with sticky sheet metal backplane
4. What type of aircraft construction, metal, wood ... ? - fibreglass
It was working exactly as set up until the latest software update as you'll see from the initial posts. That update changed the HexID but I didn't notice as SkyDemon still showed all traffic. It was only when I replaced a damaged aerial and I checked the vector chart that I realised it hadn't been transmitting for a while. I can still receive traffic.
Slightly bemused!
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It was only when I replaced a damaged aerial and I checked the vector chart that I realised it hadn't been transmitting for a while. I can still receive traffic.
Damaged aerial? Do we think the transmitter side of the radio module could have croaked?
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Which radio is it? I’ve got a PAW classic, the USB radio was replaced a couple of months ago, the one inside the case (which I assume is on the Pi circuit board) hasn’t been (and I don’t know if it can be)
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I should add both aerials are new and bought from Pilotaware
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Which radio is it? I’ve got a PAW classic, the USB radio was replaced a couple of months ago, the one inside the case (which I assume is on the Pi circuit board) hasn’t been (and I don’t know if it can be)
There's a radio bridge inside the case, last time I looked or fixed one, it was a separate daughter board. If faulty, and it's a big if, it can be replaced. Be wary of static when replacing, if this doesn't mean anything, leave well alone.
The radio bridge is a transceiver. A damaged aerial can result in reflected power back from a mistermination causing a problem in the output stage of the transmitter. This is a bit techie, I know, but that's just how it is...
The "USB radio" is an SDR and does 1090MHz for ADS-B and mode S
I should add both aerials are new and bought from Pilotaware
If damage has occurred to a transmitter stage, replacing the aerial doesn't fix that.
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The aerial connector on the radio bridge board can also break where it joins the PCB. I’ve repaired a few of those over the years. If you receive PAW transmissions OK then that won’t be the issue. If you only see non PAW traffic on your display, could be a connector issue.
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I can see traffic, and I’m not connected to a mobile phone, so receive is ok, just transmit that isn’t happy. Hmm, may have to send the unit in for testing … if PAW do that.
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But is the traffic you are seeing being received by the bridge antenna, and not all by the 1080MHz antenna?
When receiving traffic you need to look at the Traffic page to determine the types of traffic being receive - the various codes indicate the type. Aircraft with a P or a U against them would indicate that the bridge is receiving.
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Thank you. I’ll look.
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Hi Neil,
Coming late to this thread, but I agree there is definitely an issue with your PAW transmissions.
Looking at the PilotAware Database (which I have just done), the Database shows your aircraft on multiple flights between March and November, the majority of which report both PilotAware and ADSB transmissions at varying ranges, as well as some apparently random Flarm Transmissions from flights between 16th March and 17th July. Looking more closely at recent flights between 3rd October and 11th November, while there are multiple reports of your ADSB transmissions from PAW Groundstations for each flight, only three of the flights (from several sites on 26th October, Cheltenham alone on 30th October, and only 6 sites on 11th November) include PilotAware reports.
I then took a look at your recent flights using the PilotAware Track Replay Tool (see this link).
https://playback.pilotaware.com/playback/groundstations/?
Set the Transmission to PilotAware, your ICAO to 407F92 and the date/time to 10:00 on 11th November with 1 hour duration, then click the search button. Once the aircraft appears, you can drag the marker along the timeline and see which stations have been reporting your progress. You can adjust the selection settings in the Track Replay Tool to replay your other flights.
These Groundstation Replays clearly show multiple dropouts in PAW transmission (the gaps in the red line) during your recent flights, and BTW also indicate that the Groundstation at Over Farm wasn't receiving PilotAware at all on any of the dates I checked, and I can't currently connect to it so I suspect it is defective.
Bearing in mind your height and the proximity of Groundstations in the area, what I am getting from the replay is an indication of intermittent signal, rather than a complete lack of transmissions. I would therefore be looking initially for a loose connection in for example the power supply (e.g. loose connection between the power lead and the PilotAware), a loose connection or bad joint in the antenna cable or a defective antenna, a loose connection between the PilotAware Bridge and the Raspberry Pi Motherboard inside the unit (the Bridge can sometimes work loose on the 40-pin GPIO connector), or some other defect - such as a faulty or obstructed GPS ( the PAW will stop transmitting if loses its GPS position).
If you need any help with any of this please get back in touch, and please let us know how you get on.
Best Regards
Peter Robertson
(East Fortune)
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Hi Peter,
Odd that I can’t see PAW on the vector analysis yet the playback does show some.
Anyway, thank you. I use PAW as GPS on SkyDemon and I never lose signal so I suspect it is neither the power or the GPS. The aerial is new (the old one failed mechanically loading onto a trailer, so my guess is the bridge board has come loose. I’m currently on holiday so will check later this month when I get back.
As I understand it the Over Farm station is being relocated and is down, it was uninstalled some time ago and the person doing it hasn’t yet reinstalled it, hence you can’t log into it.
Best,
Neil
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Hi again Neil,
Bear in mind that a Vector report is based solely on data received by the PilotAware ATOM-GRID network from flights by the nominated aircraft in the previous 30 days, and that the individual 'radials' on the Polar Diagram indicate the bearing from the aircraft and maximum distance along that bearing, at which the signal was received by one or more receiving stations. A strong signal, received by multiple stations on a variety of bearings over a longer period of time, will normally generate a more densely filled printout extending substantially round the aircraft. A less densely populated result could simply indicate a lack of flights, weak transmission, partially obscured antenna(s) at the aircraft and/or ground station, or a lack of active ground stations in the area through which the aircraft was flown during the reporting period.
In your case, Vector is showing transmissions from flights on 26th & 30th October, and 11th November, though if you 'deselect' the 26th Oct and 11th Nov., you will see that there is only a very minimal return for the 30th October, so in practice the reports from 30th October can be disregarded. Whilst the majority of the reports from the two remaining dates are at less than 20Km, this is consistent with the database records. There are a few packets reported from up to 40Km, which is again consistent with what I see in the database.
The Vector diagram (attached) is therefore consistent with what I am seeing on the database and the Groundstation Track Replay.
Thanks for the update on Over Farm. Not being 'local', I was unaware of the situation.
I look forward to hearing from you when you get back. (If you want to talk by phone you can get my number from Jill.)
Best Regards
Peter
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That is interesting. I posted on 6 October as I wasn’t seeing flights over the previous weeks. I looked again a couple of weeks later when in conversation with someone else, but clearly before 26 October. So definitely an intermittent fault. I can say nothing has changed in my setup during that period, nor have I done any maintenance to the aircraft that might have affected connectors.
Will be in touch, thank you for your help. Sad I can’t make the EoSM Christmas Dinner this year :(
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Hi Peter,
I took the unit out the plane (well buried so that took a while!) and dismantled it. The radio bridge board wasn't securely pressed down, I could see some of the pins on the connector. So I pushed it down fully, reassembled and put in the plane.
Sadly that doesn't seem to have fixed it. There is the spurious trace from 11th November, but nothing else. The aerial is new (I broke the other one in a ground handling incident), and the connections are secure. The cable came from PAW and definitely isn't short circuit, need some extra hands to check for open circuit.
I flew yesterday around d 13:50 for 25 mins in the circuit at Over and today just after 10:00 from Over across to the west side of the severn valley, down south a bit and then back to Gloucester for 35 mins (just incase you have any other tools to look).
Not sure what to do next, can I send the unit in for testing somewhere?
n
Thank you,
Neil.
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Hi again Neil,
I can't see any reports on the PAW Database or the Groundstation Replay Tool for your flight on 28th, so it looks like your PAW still isn't transmitting. Did you manage to check the Home Screen to see what it was reporting? If you can do so, a screenshot might be useful.
If you were local, I would certainly be happy to run the unit for you and do some analysis, but if - as seems likely - the issue is as serious as it appears, that might be a complete waste of time and money. It might be better to drop Ash Vinning an email at support@pilotaware.com He is based near Stratford and could put the unit on his test rig for you. If it does prove to be terminal, PilotAware are currently doing a great trade-in offer against an upgrade to the new FX, which might be your best option. You would have got an email about it recently if you are subscribed to the mailing list. If not, I'm sure Ash will be happy to forward a copy to you.
(p.s. I know Gordon has just upgraded to a new FX for his Delta Jet)
Let me know either way what you decide.
Best Regards
Peter
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Hi Peter,
I buzzed out the aerial lead today and noticed slight resistance from the PAW end to the ground plane so I cleaned up and refitted the aerial. From PAW end to aerial there are no short circuits and zero ohms resistance for both the ground and the signal. Climbed in all excited and flew, and no job :( The only flight on the vector is the morning one, not my afternoon one after I did the above, and it is intermittent.
I've gone through my SkyDemon logs for the last 6 months and out of all of them I have 2 where SkyDemon complains of drop outs of GPS position, and all the rest are rock solid including the flights today.
That leaves me thinking the classic maybe is dead. I've emailed Ash to ask if he will test it, just waiting for a response. At least if I have to trade in he will already have it :) Just hope it all happens fast enough not to miss the bigger discounts, it's a lot of money!
Thank you for your help
n
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Hi Neil,
I was speaking to Ash this afternoon and brought our exchange on here to his attention, so he would be expecting your email. He can put the unit on his test rig and give you the definitive prognosis and if it is terminal he will sort you out.
Best Regards
P
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Thank you Peter, no response yet but hopefully soon (can you nudge him to check junk next time you speak if he hasn't seen my email)
ta
n
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So, what a journey that has been.
Ashley tested the unit and there was no error, but he reinstalled the software and I bought a new aerial cable from him (they have changed the make of cable they use). It is uncertain what the actual fault was, but given it worked on the bench for Ashley it is highly likely it was the old aerial cable (not that old, only 18 months, and it buzzed out ok, but they have changed make of cable they sell).
I fitted the new aerial cable and did two flights under the wrong hex-id then realised I hadn't checked it since Ashley reinstalled the software; the trace on the incorrect hex-id is perfect and it was definitely me given the location.
Thank you to all who have helped.
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Hi Neil,
Thanks for updating the Forum and letting everyone know that your PAW is now back transmitting as it should (hopefully now back on the correct Hex ID). :)
Sorry, I haven't commented on here in the interim. Ash kept me informed on what he found and we discussed options (but obviously not for public consumption) and I knew you were in good hands. Happily, we have arrived at a sensible 'low-cost' solution which shows we can still keep PAW Classics operating to today's high standards for our customers ;D
Keep in touch!
Best Regards
Peter
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Hi Peter,
I flew around Gloucester for 105 minutes yesterday morning (about 10:40 onwards with a short break finishing about 12:35) on my correct HexID. Height up to about 2500' at times.
As it is the first proper flight test with everything set up I wonder if you would have a moment to check that the unit is transmitting as it should?
OverFarm PAW ground station is now active so it should certainly be pinging off that
Thanks
n
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Hi Neil,
Just checked - Overfarm is definitely active again!
We have P3i reports from your flight yesterday from Cheltenham, Kemble, Nympsfield, Overfarm and Aston Down. Maximum range reported on P3i was Kemble at 26Km. Also lots of ADSB reports from multiple sites at varying ranges.
Looking at the Groundstation Replay (link below, but you need to set the correct date, time and search period), however, I'd have to say your tracks look pretty sketchy with lots of significant gaps. I have to go out shortly (childminding) but will take another look at it when I get home this evening.
https://playback.pilotaware.com/playback/groundstations/?ICAO=407F92&RxType=PAW
Best Regards
Peter
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Hi Peter,
Thank you for looking at that, my uninformed eye would read that as I still have a problem. The aerial was replaced in September, but given I'm flying around Over Farm for most of it even the dodgiest aerial in the world wouldn't have those many gaps surely?
Hope the child minding went well ...
n
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Hi Neil,
As promised, I have had another look at the database, track replay via groundstations and coverage via the Vector Tool. All 3 indicate excellent ADSB coverage, but poor / very intermittent P3i coverage - at least using your 'official' 407F92 Hex ID.
Unless your unit has somehow reverted to the 'default' MAC-based Hex ID again, it appears that there is still an issue with your P3i transmissions. Unfortunately I don't have access to the relevant part of the database to ascertain the MAC of your PAW myself (so I can't check for reports under that Hex ID), and I obviously can't phone Ash at this time of night to get it. I will however speak to him in the morning and see if we can get to the bottom of what is going on.
In the meantime a few thoughts / questions. EDIT: Having just re-read the full thread I see that some of these questions were answered back on page 1, sorry :-[ . For the sake of clarity, I have added your earlier replies here.
Is your DeltaJet fibreglass or carbon fibre? A: fibreglass
I am assuming you are using an externally mounted 1/4 wave monopole antenna on a suitable ground plane. Is this correct? A: Yes - PAW External aerials
If so, where on the aircraft is it mounted? A: antennas are below the aircraft with sticky sheet metal backplane
I still need the following...
Have you checked for electrical continuity between the outer of the P3i antenna cable at the PAW and the metal ground plane? (If the ground plane isn't working properly there will be a significant impedance mismatch which could account for lack of transmitted signal).
Where is the PAW itself fitted? (of lesser significance with extenal antennas, but still relevant in relation to the next question)
What are you using to provide the GPS data - plugged-in GPS dongle or remote GPS 'mouse'? And if the latter, where is the mouse positioned?
How are you powering the PilotAware? - if directly from the aircraft, how is it wired and what make/type of 12 volt to USB reducer are you using?
Do you have any photos of the installation available?
Depending on the above, I may also ask you to power up the unit and take and provide screen grabs from the PAW 'in situ' and running. If so I will get in touch and explain exactly what I need you to provide.
Best Regards Meantime
Peter
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Postscript: Friday 10/01 at 10:45am
Hi Neil,
I have just spoken to Ash, who confirmed that your PAW Classic performed perfectly to spec on the test rig, and I now have your 'default' Mac-Based Hex ID (F596F1).
I re-ran my checks on your 8th January flight on that (default) ID - nothing showing on any of the analysis tools - which proves that you did change the Hex ID to 407F92 prior to your flights on 8th January.
More worryingly :(, your flight from 4th January - with the default MAC ID - shows excellent P3i transmission on all 3 analysis tools, with groundstation replay from multiple stations concurrently throughout the flight and excellent all-round Vector coverage. This proves without doubt that your PAW was definitely transmitting P3i during both flights on 4th January - which is of course good :D. Unfortunately, it doesn't help explain why it wasn't working on the 8th.
So what changed between the two flights on 4th January and the ones on 8th January (apart from resetting your HexID to the correct ICAO one)? Did you have the unit out of the aircraft, or did you just change the Hex ID via your tablet/phone?
Thinking about recent UK weather conditions, one possibility is that there might be a build up of snow or ice (or even damp mud) around the short insulating sleeve which separates the active transmitting element of the antenna from the ground (mount) under the aircraft, which could be causing a short circuit between them.
The only other thing I can think of at the moment is that something has come loose, so please check all power lead and antenna connections - including the connection between the antenna mount and the ground plane.
Let me know what you find.
Best Regards
Peter
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Hi Peter,
Absolutely nothing changed apart from changing the Hex-ID. It takes 40 minutes to get the aircraft apart and back together again to access the unit so I tend to leave it well alone. Everything is cable tied down, the PilotAware unit itself velcro on the aircraft and doesn't move. I will clean the aerial and see what happens, I have a lesson in just over an hour.
I must confess I find the whole failure utterly bizarre. SkyDemon would suggest it is working perfectly as far as GPS and power are concerned (it is my GPS source for SkyDemon). The SkyDemon logs are bang on and no gaps. When I've had GPS gaps in the past SkyDemon has complained, there were no complaints in respect of the logs ...
n
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Hi Peter,
I flew today, Friday 10th January, from about 13:10 to 14:10. Does it look any better?
n
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Hi Neil,
That's MUCH Better!
The groundstation playback of P3i shows pretty much a solid altitude profile and ground track, with concurrent reports from multiple ground stations throughout the flight. Vector shows pretty much 360 degree coverage at varying ranges up to around 50Km. (At this stage the 'Range' reported by Vector is dependent on where you actually flew in relation to those ATOM stations which saw you. The density of the diagram should improve with additional flight reports.)
So did you find something specific which has caused this change?
Best Regards
Peter
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Hi Peter,
So I cleaned the outside of the aerial as you suggested, the only other difference was I wasn't running SkyDemon.
The flight was up to the south-east of the Malverns, then back to just west of Huntley, then returning to Over with quite a bit of manoeuvring between 1800' and 2700' in that triangle.
I notice there are gaps in the trace you sent, but not many. Is that usual or might it point to a continuing problem?
As ever thank you for your continued help.
n
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Morning Neil,
Thanks for the feedback.
Not running SkyDemon shouldn't have had any influence either way on your P3i transmissions. I was easily able to follow your track on the playback tool. As nothing else physically changed between your flights on 4th and 8th January, wet or frozen mud contamination causing a short circuit around the base of the antenna could have been the problem as I suggested. I have certainly had that once before myself. We will just need to keep an eye on it and see how your PAW performs from now on.
Odd small gaps in your 'groundstation' playback aren't unusual, as reception can be affected by obscuration due to things like aircraft framing or undercarriage or ground terrain between you and the ground stations. Obviously less significant if you are flying over flat ground where there is a good density of ground stations. Are you aware that you can also download your own track files directly from your PAW (onto your phone or tablet for example), then play them back using the 'Track' playback tool at https://playback.pilotaware.com/playback/ . That option also shows any received traffic and (with a bit of work) you can analyse things like GPS reporting - though this takes a fair bit of time to get your head round if you have to do it manually.
Please keep me informed of any further issues.
Best Regards
Peter