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81
Technical Support / Re: adsb (out) not showing on Vector
« Last Post by Mach2 on March 22, 2024, 10:41:04 am »
To answer the last post, the FUNKE transponder was new 2 years ago - I had to exchange the old one which did not support adsb.  There is no warning of GPS failure in the transponder.  I can check the GPS data input using the setup mode but that is only available with the transponder in standby.  So I have checked it on the ground only.  I will check the cable continuity but it is a very simple single cable into the Trig and Funke plugs.

Flew yesterday and adsb exchange tags the flight as sourced from adsb data but nothing shown on vector.  After flight spoke to Pete Pengilly about the issue and he is going to put his test set on it next time he is at our base.

Thanks for all the help
John
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Technical Support / Re: adsb (out) not showing on Vector
« Last Post by exfirepro on March 21, 2024, 11:21:20 pm »
I picked an aircraft at random (a PA28) that was live and showing MLAT. Then went back to look at previous flights for the same aircraft and they showed as MLAT too. Just to see what ADSBExchage recorded for historical flights.

So isn’t Mode-S shown as MLAT and with added ES becomes ADSB. If so it looks like things are working on the aircraft in question.

Thanks for the clarification Jeremy.

You are of course correct, that Mode-S aircraft are reported as (and using) MLAT - otherwise, without their own ground radar, it would of course be impossible for the tracking sites to report the position and track of aircraft transmitting solely Mode-S signals.

You are also correct that Mode-S with ES is ‘accepted’ colloquially as ADSB and reported as such on tracking sites, even though the type of signal transmitted (known as DF17) is measurably different from ‘True ADS-B’. In practice FLARM and PilotAware are also forms of  ‘ADSB’ (Automatic Detection Surveillance (by) Broadcast (of position and other relevant information). They just operate on a different frequency to the normally accepted 1090 MHz used by ‘Traditional ADS-B’.

Together with cellular-based systems like SafeSky, PilotAware and FLARM are now referred to by EASA as part of the ‘ADSB-Light’ suite of surveillance tools being considered by EASA and the CAA as acceptable for use in ‘common usage airspace’ known as ‘U-Space’ - where it is anticipated that manned and unmanned aircraft will be allowed to operate together without the need for exclusion zones. This being the case, might the tracking sites not simply be using the generic term ADSB to describe reports derived from ‘known-position’ transmissions of any sort, possibly combined where available with positions derived by MLAT of ‘Pure Mode-S’?

I am not convinced that the label ‘ADSB’ on a tracking site, without further clarification and corroboration, provides incontrovertible proof that a Mode-S/ES installation is operating as intended. If that was the case, how do you account for the lack of specifically DF17 ADSB reports from the multiple sites on the ATOM-GRID Network which reported P3i and FLARM data from the G-RUVE, when the database also contains multiple DF17 reports from other aircraft in the same area during the same time periods?

Unless and until we can find another explanation, the logic clearly supports the likelihood of a problem with DF17 Mode-S/ES transmissions from G-RUVE rather than the reverse.

Regards

Peter
83
OGN-R PilotAware / Re: FLARM to change protocol
« Last Post by DY691 on March 21, 2024, 10:21:55 pm »
By safesky directly
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OGN-R PilotAware / Re: FLARM to change protocol
« Last Post by steveu on March 21, 2024, 07:54:54 pm »
gliders were available with safesky

SafeSky directly or via the OGN?

FLARM is a bit banjaxed... more here:

https://xcmag.com/news/xc-tracer-flarm-collide-over-software-update/

85
Technical Support / Re: adsb (out) not showing on Vector
« Last Post by JCurtis on March 21, 2024, 05:58:03 pm »
I picked an aircraft at random (a PA28) that was live and showing MLAT. Then went back to look at previous flights for the same aircraft and they showed as MLAT too. Just to see what ADSBExchage recorded for historical flights.

So isn’t Mode-S shown as MLAT and with added ES becomes ADSB. If so it looks like things are working on the aircraft in question.
86
Technical Support / Re: adsb (out) not showing on Vector
« Last Post by exfirepro on March 21, 2024, 05:33:27 pm »
Just to keep Peter on his toes, I'll also throw this into the mix...

I picked a different aircraft on ADSBExchange that was showing as MLAT (a PA28).  I went back to find another flight, and it shows as MALT in the history.  So I think the transponder is doing its job correctly....

When you say ‘I went back to find another flight, and it shows as MLAT in the history’ do you mean another G-RUVE flight? If so, that would certainly confirm that the transponder was transmitting Mode-S at that time, but would also confirm that it wasn’t transmitting ADSB.

Unfortunately we had to stop recording Mode-S data as there was so much of it that the servers couldn’t cope, so I can’t verify that from the database.

However, for MLAT to work, the transponder and antenna must be operational, at least outputting Mode-S, which would be the same carrier as if it were also doing Extended Squitter from the GPS reference.  So perhaps the GPS -> Transponder link isn't running, but surly the Transponder would indicate if the data is there or not?

Defiantly weird.

I fully agree, but there is no easy way to check that remotely. John did say he checked the transponder settings and GPS position a month ago, but he is using a Funke TRT800H, fed GPS data from a Trig TN72 and I’m not sure how that displays, or if (and how) it gives warnings if it loses the GPS feed. I know my Trig produces an ADSB Fail Alert on the control head, but it’s not particularly prominent.

I’ll keep on the case.

Peter
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Technical Support / Re: adsb (out) not showing on Vector
« Last Post by JCurtis on March 21, 2024, 04:58:26 pm »
Just to keep Peter on his toes, I'll also throw this into the mix...

I picked a different aircraft on ADSBExchange that was showing as MLAT (a PA28).  I went back to find another flight, and it shows as MALT in the history.  So I think the transponder is doing its job correctly....
88
Technical Support / Re: adsb (out) not showing on Vector
« Last Post by JCurtis on March 21, 2024, 04:43:53 pm »
However, for MLAT to work, the transponder and antenna must be operational, at least outputting Mode-S, which would be the same carrier as if it were also doing Extended Squitter from the GPS reference.  So perhaps the GPS -> Transponder link isn't running, but surly the Transponder would indicate if the data is there or not?

Defiantly weird.
89
Technical Support / Re: adsb (out) not showing on Vector
« Last Post by exfirepro on March 21, 2024, 04:31:55 pm »
Hi again All,

Ok, so I have now had a chance to look at the FR24 and ADSBExchange Reports. I certainly can’t deny that they are both reporting G-RUVE’s flights on the dates in question.

Unfortunately, although ADSBExchange ‘seems’ to be reporting the flight as ADSB, we know that aircraft tracking sites (including FR24) use a combination of ADSB data from ground and satellite sources, plus MLAT from Mode-S as well as FLARM data (probably from the OGN Network - which also reports PilotAware), and data from goodness knows what other sources, when compiling their reports.
 
That’s the only realistic explanation I can think of for the virtually complete track reports from these sites, bearing in mind the paucity of ADSB data from G-RUVE on our database for 3rd March and the complete lack of ADSB data for 13th March. I’m pretty sure I could get a similar track report from just the PAW and FLARM data on our site, but unfortunately the PilotAware Playback tools are down at the moment (server maintenance apparently).

I will give it a try later and let you all know what I find.

In the meantime, I stand by my previous comments and suggestions to John for further investigation.

Best Regards

Peter
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Technical Support / Re: adsb (out) not showing on Vector
« Last Post by exfirepro on March 21, 2024, 01:18:52 pm »
Hi Jeremy,

Thanks for that.

405F9B is certainly the correct HexID for Vans RV8 G-RUVE and the ADSBExchange link certainly seems to be reporting the flight as ADSB.

I need to look into this further, but have to go out this afternoon. I will take a look later when I get back.

Peter
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