PilotAware
British Forum => Technical Support => Topic started by: CliveJ on August 12, 2019, 12:30:59 am
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OK, this might not be a PAW problem but I can see there's lots of savvy folk on here so maybe you can help with my problem.
I have a PAW and have been using it successfully for a few years. A few days ago I updated it and it's running ok with the update.
The issue I have is it can't see my aircraft's transponder on the PAW, I know it's not supposed to. But even set to another Hex and Reg the PAW can't see the TXP on the traffic list when reading via the browser on 192.168.1.1. It did once when I tried a test on the ground 3 months ago but it didn't show the ADSB word you need to have a screenshot of to prove it's working. I gave up that day scratched my head. I have a Filser with a Garmin feeding the position signal via RS232, Filser suggested I tied the ground of the Garmin and Filser together to give the RS232 a good reference so I did this but no difference. That said the ADSB was showing on FR24 right from the first time I flew with it hooked up. After doing the update the other day to the latest PAW update I thought I'd try again. All regular traffic is there of course.
I need to see it so I can confirm the TXP is transmitting ADSB so I can get the sign of for it from the LAA.
The Garmin signal also feeds the autopilot and that shows 'GPS Good" shortly after the GPS gets a fix.
If I have a look at myself on FR24 while flying I can see the plane's reg and the position is good and the feed is shown as ADSB.
So TXP works, is showing as transmitting ADSB, is recognised by every agency I've talked to in past few years (with and without ADSB feed connected), only thing is it won't show up on PAW when I reset the ID etc away from my aircrafts code(s) or when they are set.
Please ask any questions if I haven't explained myself. There is no 'flight' switch on the TXP.
BTW, today I took the PAW out of the aircraft and parked 300m away and tried to see the plane's TXP when it was parked up with 7000' Mode ACS squarking and a good GPS signal shown on the GPS and the autopilot.
All this is under testing as neither the ADSB hook up is approved yet and neither is the Autopilot, I want to bundle the paperwork and get it all signed off together.
Anything I've missed, ideas appreciated?
Regards, Clive
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After you change the hex code away from the correct one, do you click ‘Save’. Unless you do he change will not kick in.
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Hi Clive,
I have noticed this myself recently and for some time now (‘Ownship’ not showing in the PAW traffic table - even when the Hex ID is set to something other than that in the transponder). I suspect this may be a casualty (collateral damage) resulting from the technical improvements incorporated to make Mode C detection more ‘intelligent’. (IIRC it determines that the strongest Mode C (altitude) response being received must be ‘Ownship’ so filters it out). I may of course be completely wrong - Lee would have to confirm. Unfortunately I can’t fly at the moment but will try some tests to see if I can pin this down.
IIRC the LAA procedure requires the supporting screenshot to be from a separate PilotAware located some distance from the unit on test (and preferably not running the Mode C S Filter) which should get round this problem - have you tried that? I will try to do so myself when next at the airfield.
@Lee - Comments please....
Best Regards
Peter
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Ian, I thought I might be doing that wrong so changed it saved it closed the browser. Opened a new one, logged onto the unit, went to the Config page and the new numbers/code are there.
Switched on the Mode C/S and still nothing.
I know that works as flew with my son in his plane and the warning came up with his reg.
Now that gives me an idea, I'll drag his plane out and try the same test as I've been doing with mine.
Also I'll get him on the ground with the PAW and go flying in my plane.
Peter, your idea would explain it.....
The reason why I took the PAW out the plane and put it in my van and drove 300m away as I feared there was some high power signal filter on the PAW. I was still quite close relatively but I have seen alaerts when I'm in formation with other planes running C/S that said they were intermittent.
Thanks for the thoughts and ideas, will update any progress, Regards, Clive
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This is unrelated to the Mode-C work, and in fact it is very unlikely that your transponder is interrogated on the ground
Do you know if the transponder has a ground mode setting, and if it does, is it enabled ?
Thx
Lee
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Hi Clive,
Not sure where you are but some airfields like Goodwood are carrying out ADS-B trials. You could fly near one and ask them to confirm (maybe by screenshot) that they can see you with their ADS-B only kit. I imagine they will be keen to help if they are like Goodwood. Why not visit Goodwood it's a great airfield, speaking as one who is not even based there.
Phil
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Another update:
So, set the PAW up in the van again, my son monitoring and on the radio, it's reading 40 aircraft or so, a few local helicopters going offshore so all is good.
Nothing from my aircraft, on the ground, took off flew about 6 or 7 miles away nothing at any point picked up.
Spoke to Norwich, C and S being received, took a selfie of myself on FR24 with ADSB as the source.
So, landed, son goes flying and nothing from him, notb on the ground or flying overhead, all the rest being reported as before.
Thanks for the suggestion about the trial, I'm up in Norfolk so a bit of hike, been to GW lots of times over the years and agree, great airfield.
Now, to make sure the PAW was not set to my plane's details I set it to my sons plane, so now it has been set to my plane and my sons plane and now it doesn't see either of them......what ever the configuration says, are we seeing something in common here?
I'm thinking I download the new program to the SD card again so it's raw and empty and then see if it's picking up my plane?
Is the program written in such a way it's ignoring all previously 'configured' aircrafts details?
Just a thought, thanks again for the suggestions, Regards, Clive
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Hi Clive
This is very odd, can you share the picture you took of ADS-B being received on FR24
And so we are all in agreement, the source of FR24 was definitely ADS-B and not MLAT ?
**edit** just read your earlier post confirming that it was definitely ADS-B
Can you share the track file from PilotAware from your flight ?
to answer your question, regarding what is ignored, it is simply he ICAO code which is entered on the configure page
Thx
Lee
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Hi Clive,
North Weald Airfield is the nearest ADS-B trial as per Airspace for All
Phil
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The PAW was on the ground so there's no track log. The two planes were started up in front of it and flown above it.
Think it's worth reloading the files to a newly formatted card?
Is the ICAO kept in a place where that would be cleared by doing this?
Thanks, Clive
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Hi Clive,
Running the PAW on the ground will still create a track file. If you are going to Overwrite the card, it would be worth downloading any track files off it first in case Lee needs them to track down what is going on. This can be easily achieved by connecting to your PAW via WiFi from a laptop, tablet, etc and doing a direct download from the ‘Tracks’ tab, or by using a USB stick inserted in a spare USB slot on the PAW.
Loading a new image onto a new or Full Overwrite reformatted card will remove ALL data from the PAW.
Regards
Peter
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Sent to support at PAW
Going to reload everything shortly
Ta, CJ
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It appears to be a MLAT position fixing for FR24.
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It appears to be a MLAT position fixing for FR24.
Hi Mariko,
How do you determine that? I’m not an expert on FR24, but have just run Clive’s flight from 12th August on FR24 replay (silver member) but the replay gives no indication of whether the track is ADSB or MLAT.
Clive,
Re-Reading your OP, you say you have been using your PAW successfully for “a few years”. I presume from this that it is an early ‘PilotAware Classic’ unit, rather than a Rosetta. Is this correct?
I am starting to think there may be a problem with your PAW’s 1090MHz Receiver, - but you say you are still receiving other local aircraft and I can’t work out why a PAW set up outside your Aircraft would see other local aircraft but not see your own or your son’s aircraft - unless you had the ‘Ownship’ ICAO Hex ID for each individual aircraft set in PAW during each of the tests.
When you set things up again, please set the Hex ID to the default (last 6 digits of the PAW WiFi MAC Address) and set all the PAW filters (both vertical and horizontal) to as wide as possible, then either rerun your flight tests, or boot the PAW up and leave it running for a while and post some screenshots of the Traffic Screen, so we can see what it is actually receiving.
Screenshots of the Home, Configure and Traffic Pages plus the track file should help us track down what is going on here. Also, it appears we still haven’t seen the ‘live’ FR24 shot you say you took to show that your setup is definitely transmitting ADSB.
Regards
Peter
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Hi Mariko,
How do you determine that?
He sees many ADSB with is PAW
He dont sees his own trasponder on PAW
His trasponder is tracked by FR24
If his trasponder is a Trasponder S tracked via MLAT it is exactly what I suppose it has to appen
For this reason I wrote "it appears to be" that, in italian, is like "I suppose, I conjecture". Sorry for my bad english.
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Mariko,
Yes, I understand now what you meant. No need to apologise for your English. I speak a bit of Italian, but I probably couldn’t manage a technical exchange on an Italian Forum so you have my respect.
From a screenshot of Clive’s Configuration Screen (which I have been shown privately), he seems to have had his Mode CS filter set to +/- 500ft - which would have filtered out his own Mode S above that height when his PAW unit was on the ground, and below that height close to the airfield it might not have been getting interrogated by RADAR, so wouldn’t be transmitting Mode S, but that shouldn’t have prevented his Mode S-ES (ADSB) from transmitting unless his transponder has some sort of Ground or Speed Limit Switch.
Hopefully the setup I have asked him to try and screenshots I have asked for will clarify the situation.
Best Regards
Peter
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Clive,
After responding to Mariko’s post above, I just had another look at the Config screenshot you sent to Lee and notice that you had ‘Mode CS Select’ set to ‘Mode C S’. That is the correct setting for the ground tests I have asked you to do, or for operation in an aircraft which doesn’t have a transponder, but when PAW is being used in an aircraft which does have a transponder you must set Mode CS Select to ‘Mode CS + Filter’ to prevent false alerts from your own Mode C (altitude) responses.
That wouldn’t have stopped your PAW seeing the two aircraft’s ADSB from the ground though and please use the ‘Mode CS’ setting without filter for the ground tests I have asked you to get screenshots from.
Regards
Peter
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Clive and I have had a number of email exchanges on this subject.
It may well be an issue with the transponder which is a Funke running firmware revision 4.8 - I think the latest is 5.3
Funke made the following comment on this FW release previously
http://forum.pilotaware.com/index.php?topic=1173.msg13851#msg13851
"it (ADS-B) does generally work but it could be in individual cases that it doesn't work 100 percent, So we suggest the Update."
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So, if adsb does noto work properly, the txp will ne read as a not postional modeS and tracked by mlat, i suppose.
And ,maybe, clive adsb out is not being read by PAW because there is not adsb out, or it is incomplete or wrong format.
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Hi Mariko,
That sounds like exactly what is happening. Very frustrating though (not least for Clive) - particularly if it works properly but only part of the time :(
Regards
Peter
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Thanks for all the feedback and suggestions.
Just to clarify my aircraft always appears on FR24 with the source as ADSB out.
I scrubbed the SD card and reloaded the latest revision of PAW. The configuration was then set to the default.
Still no sign of my aircraft when it was adjacent to the PAW set up in my van.
Plenty of local traffic showing up some with ADSB.
BTW the TXP's are always responding to something where we are so that's not part of the issue when doing the test.
For now I've refitted the PAW to my plane and will see what comes up on the traffic list when I next fly just out of curiosity (without setting up it's own numbers). After I will set the right numbers and the CS to filter.
This morning it was picking up another aircraft in the hangar ok, that was another Funke, new one though with FW up in the 6's I think.
Funke have said the latest software won't be available now till the end of August. When it is I'll send the TXP for the update and they will checkout it's performance.
Thanks again for everyone's help. If I ever have an update I'll come back and post it.
Regards, Clive
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Flew over the weekend and the PAW was seeing plenty of local traffic and other PAW.
Shortly after that the Wifi died and now doesn't work.
Nothing to do with anything previous so losing interest......
Thanks again for the help and suggestions. See you at the rally!
Regards, Clive
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Hi Clive,
Shortly after that the Wifi died
Is the WiFi still not transmitting? Are you able to send us the PilotAware track files from that flight?
Thanks
Ash
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I suspect I'm having similar problems to CJ re ADSB out. Just set it all up connected to my funke TRT800H transponder (which has the current 5.3 software) but using my friend's PAW we can eventually see my aircraft but the adsb column is all '-' so that's no good for a screen shot to submit for the BMAA approval. My transponder is getting a GPS position via PAW and I've checked the transponder settings. Even spoken to funke (helpful chap called Michael Frost). Can anyone offer advice? How do you set SIL and SDA values to zero?
All very frustrating!
Thanks
Adrian
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Hi Adrian
If I recall correctly, Funke have purchased a Pilotaware, so maybe you could ask Marcus to do the test himself on one of his units
Can you provide a screenshot of what you see on the traffic page
Home and Configure pages would also be helpful
Thx
Lee
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Further to my post on Friday re adsb issue, having spoken to Adrian Garner on suggestion of BMAA tech office, my funke transponder IS transmitting adsb. Did a test with Goodwood airfield yesterday and they confirmed all working. So, it seems it that the test with another PAW trying to confirm the adsb transmission is the problem. Which begs the question........ Which other ads transmissions is my PAW not seeing? Adrian Garner has developed a programme for use on a laptop which will prove the transmissions so will now run that to submit for certification.
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This is strange and needs investigation, but there are not ‘different kinds’ of ADSB
So is something specific about the data transmission
Thx
Lee
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A quick update, just read this string again to see where I had got to.
The Wiif was OK after reloading the software (though that might not have been the problem) and the unit was working fine, still appearing on FR24 as ADSB.
Every two months I E mail Funke to see if there is any progress on the software upgrade, last reply was sometime soon but that was in January so I just gave them a nudge to see if they have any progress.
Aside from that just fitting out the exterior antenna's ready for when we all take to the skies again!
Regards, Clive
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Funke came back this morning, not happening any time soon.
If anyone else has one maybe you can pester them for the upgrade on service@funkeavionics.de
Regards, Clive
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Maybe those in the know would like to post a thread giving a list of transponders that are known to give the sort of service with PAW that we need.
The wall of wallets often works well in persuasion, and is better than asking nicely for post purchase support.
Please may we have details of the recalcitrant transponder. We are already aware than Fünke seems to be a brand to avoid.
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This is not really PAW, is it Steve; this is more about ADSB Out. Yes, I know PAW is used in many cases to supply the GPS information but that is really the only common link. I believe PAW can detect the Mode S 'transmission' of a Funke transponder but the problem seems to be with the ADSB Out in the Funke equipment, no matter what the GPS source.
For what it's worth my machine transmitted Mode S and ADSB loud and clear when it did its test flight. This is using a Trig TT21, supplied with GPS information from my MGL iEFIS Lite. Obviously I have yet to get it 'tested' with a PAW etc and signed off but the fact that it worked from take off to landing and was seen on FR24 is probably a pretty decent indication that it worked okay. SO, I think we can put Trig in the good boy pile :)
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In all other respects my Funke works OK, just can't get the string of numbers up on a nearby PAW to get the approval through.
Though that said a friend with a Garmin box with traffic on ot can't see me.
The ADSB is working fine for everyone else.
I do agree there seems to be a problem with the Filser/Funke branded TXP in some areas though. Certainly I wouldn't go there again. Well not until there's a software upgrade and it has resolved the issue i'm seeing. They obviously don't see it as important, maybe I'm the only one complaining.
Regards, Clive
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Hi All,
Of around 40 flexwings of various ages and types at AlanG and I’s local club, a dozen or more now run ADSB Out via Trig TT21 Transponders using a variety of GPS sources, including PilotAware, various dedicated GPS devices or in a handful of cases, Trig’s own (certified) TN72. Irrespective of the GPS source, all are partnered by PilotAware units providing additional low-cost visibility and acting as multi-mode receivers.
Mine was the second aircraft at the field set up for ADSB Out - way back in May 2015 - by installing a Trig TT21 with a dedicated (uncertified) Byonics GPS4 GPS source, to take part in local Project Eva trials run up here in Scotland by Trig. It was immediately successful, and I have since been involved with a significant number of similar installs using a variety of GPS sources and can verify that Trig’s TT21/TT22 devices are easy to set up and in my experience always work effectively. Trig’s larger TT31 stack devices are also similarly easy to adapt and effective, though owners tend to opt for Trig’s TN72 or fully certified TN70 GPS sources (and not to my knowledge in flexwings).
Hope this helps
Regards
Peter
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Clive,
If it helps, my friend had the older style Funke transponder and did get ADS-B Out working with PAW as the data source.
Did you get your Funke modified so the interface module contains the memory chip that stores the ICAO code?
The only issue was his ground speed, as seen by FR24 and similar, was it varied considerably.
He no longer has that installation now as he upgraded using Trig equipment.
Tony
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The only issue was his ground speed, as seen by FR24 and similar, was it varied considerably.
Hi Tony
The reason for this, is that the funke does not emit the ground speed when using non certified Gps
No idea how funke came to this decision
Thx
Lee
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The only issue was his ground speed, as seen by FR24 and similar, was it varied considerably.
The reason for this, is that the funke does not emit the ground speed when using non certified Gps
No idea how funke came to this decision
Assume it has something to do with SIL=0 and assuming that the ADS-B out is going to be screened out by a huge majority of receivers, then they got into the "why bother?" situation.
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He no longer has that installation now as he upgraded using Trig equipment.
I accept Paul's point that this is not really PAW, however, any community is in a strong position to modify the behaviour of commercial entities by acting as a community.
We need to support those whose products work out of the box, those who promise software or firmware upgrades to get their products to work as desired need to have incentives to deliver, a drop in revenue until the upgrades are done ticks a box for me.
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I think the basic Funke transponder design is quite old and developed before aviators got interested in ADS-B Out.
As mentioned previously, to make a Funke work at all in Mode S they had to modify the interface module in order to store the ICAO code.
That cost was, I believe, a few hundred Euros.
I am not sure if a certified GPS source would make any difference as I don't think any were really available a few years ago.
Tony
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My Funke is the TRT800A, I asked Funke is there was a date for the update but they didn't reply. I don't think there is any money in it so I don't think it's going to happen now. That's why I was asking for anyone with one to pester Funke.
The coding on mine is stored on the D connector.
Might be time to sell the TRT800A and get a newer TXP, I'll have to have a look to see what is the best replacement for the tray mounted unit I have. Any opinions appreciated!
Regards, Clive
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Hi Clive,
As per my above - I highly recommend Trig, both for ease of install and conversion to ADSB-Out and for their excellent customer support.
Regards
Peter