PilotAware
British Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: tonys on May 26, 2018, 09:06:55 pm
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hello everyone
have purchased rosseta and have been getting to know it
over the last few weeks.
it has to said not very impressed so far,this is how i see things
please correct me if i'm wrong.
1/pilot aware will not identify gliders equipped with flarm
2/pilot aware will not identify ga aircraft with non adsb transponders
3/pilot aware will identify aircraft with p3i (subject to where you put the antenna)
4/pilot aware will identify aircraft with adsb transponders
so my conclusions are is it really worth having pilot aware on board
when their are so many aircraft not being shown.
sorry to be so negative i know its a worthy cause
but its how i see it at the moment
am i wrong ?
tony
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Tony
Lets take it point by point.
1/pilot aware will not identify gliders equipped with flarm. Not the fault of PAW. Unfortunately FLARM is fairly proprietary. If information was forthcoming from FLARM Company it would probably be a 'target' within the remit of PAW.
The OGN Network is so far a good attempt to share Glider positions without this direct FLARM interaction.
2/pilot aware will not identify ga aircraft with non adsb transponders. Incorrect.PAW will give an indication of a Mode C or S presence as an awareness target.
3/pilot aware will identify aircraft with p3i (subject to where you put the antenna). Not sure why the inference of antennae position so relevant. An aircraft with PAW will see and communicate with another so equipped.
4/pilot aware will identify aircraft with adsb transponders. Correct and very useful.
I can sometimes be very direct so I'll issue an apology now.
This is an Aid! NOT a TCAS or ADS Tx device or meant to reduce standard VFR tasks such as look out and visual scanning. The most useful part of PAW is the Audio output.
That allows you to retain the vital lookout tasks that as a VFR Pilot are the way we are meant to fly.
Please reconsider you negativity when next you fly.
Regards
Gerry
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hello Gerry
thanks for your frank reply
as regards point 1/ whatever the reasons the fact remains pilot aware will NOT alert you to gliders.
point 2/ yes i stand corrected. pilot aware will inform you that something is out their.
point 3/ position of antenna who knows the pdf pilotaware antennas states positioning is very important.
really posting my conclusions on this forum is like putting head in the lions mouth.
but sometimes you have to call it how you see it. even to the point of using the dreaded negative word.
regards
Tony
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You will see gliders if you're in range of one of the OGN-PAW ground stations. Most of the central part of the UK is now covered. That's assuming the glider has Flarm.
It's a bit of a catch 22 thing - back in the day when PilotAware first started to be used, people complained that it wasn't worth using it because it didn't show *everything*. Well, the more people who use it, the more people will be detected. There are something like 2000 PilotAware units out there now, so 2000 aircraft you can detect who you wouldn't otherwise be able to (though there will be some with ADS-B as well, so maybe not quite 2000).
The more that are used, the more effective it will be.
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hello paul
thanks for the reply, as you say more the better.
interestingly last week passing north abeam seighford
gliders did appear on pilot aware albeit fleetingly.
but perhaps people can see my frustration when at the airfield
today aircraft everywhere and not one appearing on pilot aware.
and yes i have got settings correct.
regards
tony
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Did you suggest to them to buy one for themselves? ;D
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no need paul
they do have a base station
and i think its in the ogn network
and it appeared on pilotaware
but dont count as an aircraft.
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I mean all the aircraft you couldn't see. Now you have one, you can convince others to get one on the back of the fact that now they'll be able to see you. :D
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Hi Tony
Sorry to hear you are disappointed, I think there have been a few follow up posts to your original
I would like to ask something related to your post, I wanted to understand your expectations
Regarding the 4 points you raised, 2 of the points indicated what could be seen, and 2 of the points indicated what could not be seen
of the 2 issues regarding what could not be seen
1/pilot aware will not identify gliders equipped with flarm
2/pilot aware will not identify ga aircraft with non adsb transponders
I think we established that PilotAware will see Mode C/S if enabled - it will however only report as a bearingless target
as an aside - I found this very interesting article on CHIRP today
Page 4 Situational Awareness
https:
//www.chirp.co.uk/upload/docs/General%20Aviation/GAFB%20Edition%2076%20-%20May%202018%20(E%20Version).pdf (https://www.chirp.co.uk/upload/docs/General%20Aviation/GAFB%20Edition%2076%20-%20May%202018%20(E%20Version).pdf)
OK, so coming back to your post, I think the remaining issue you have is that PilotAware will not receive FLARM (directly)
I am more concerned with what led you to believe PilotAware would receive FLARM ?
Have you read somewhere in our docs or has somebody told you that PilotAware will receive FLARM, I would really like to know, because that needs correcting - I do not want to perpetuate something which is patently incorrect.
Thx
Lee
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but perhaps people can see my frustration when at the airfield
today aircraft everywhere and not one appearing on pilot aware.
and yes i have got settings correct.
regards
tony
Hi Tony,
As you are aware, PAW will display ADS-B, PAW and Flarm (when in range of and OGN) which you were at the field.
Also, PAW will indicate mode C and Mode S as a bearing-less warning. I find these useful as you get a relative height and the green / yellow / red rings to indicate the (very) approximate proximity of the other aircraft.
So, your PAW would 'see' everything that was transmitting that day while at the field. The only reason that I can think of why PAW didn't give any warnings is none of the other aircraft were transmitting anything? Not really a fault of PAW.
But it WILL demonstrate it's value one day, when it alerts you to to a conflicting aircraft that you did not see in your visual scan, THEN you realise the price is an absolute bargain, even for just that one warning :-)
Good on you for installing PAW, the sky just got a bit safer for us all.
Deker.
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hello lee and deker
first let me reply to lee
first as regards flarm simply pointing out that pilot aware will not see it
agreed that no where does pa say that it will.
i think that everyone flying will agree that gliders are arguably the most difficult aircraft to see.
the ogn network may improve that situation.
bearingless targets. hmm something out their, perhaps a distraction, debatable if that is useful.
now then deker
we are in total agreement,pa has only to point out the one you dont see once.
i will continue to use pa.
but the whole point of my original post the bottom line
is this.
with 2,000 units sold and 20,000 ga aircraft of varying types in the uk
the very best is 10% other aircraft having pa
sorry but thats the facts.
like it or not.
regards
tony
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Some of the other 18,000 will have ADS-B.
The majority of the others will have Mode C or Mode S transponders, so you'll be able to get an indication of those.
As an increasing number of aircraft take on some form of electronic conspicuity, you'll see an increasing number show up on your display. We're only at the very beginning really. The point stands, if you're at an airfield and aircraft you didn't see land as well, have a chat with them, demonstrate PilotAware to them, see if they'd be interested in getting one.
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And all who have serviceable transponders must have them on now from 12th October last year so that helps the cause too. Although I know of some old school pilots who are resisting the switch.
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but the whole point of my original post the bottom line
is this.
with 2,000 units sold and 20,000 ga aircraft of varying types in the uk
the very best is 10% other aircraft having pa
sorry but thats the facts.
like it or not.
Hi Tony
Thanks for your input to the forum. At PilotAware continuous improvement and value for money are our key drivers and we are truly passionate about giving everyone the best chance of detecting other aircraft in the sky. At the lowest cost. This would not be possible without the hard work that has been done by all over the last 3 years.
If as you say there are 20,000 GA aircraft in the UK then knowing what I know(will anyone please correct me if you have published data) there are approximately
2500 gliders using FLARM or Power FLARM
2000 aircraft using PilotAware
12000 aircraft using Mode C/S
500-1000 ??? using ADSB either by ADSB transponders, Mode S with ES and a none approved GPS or Sky Echo
The rest 2000-3000 with nothing.
The figures aren't that accurate as some will have more than 1. I suspect the 2000 - 3000 with nothing is understated
PilotAware WILL see gliders that have FLARM or OGN trackers when a PilotAware user is in the reception area of an upgraded OGN-R transceiver. Our supporters have achieved an "engineering conquest of Everest" by installing 75+ OGN-R antennas in just over a year to achieve great coverage in the UK. Even the EASA Committee on Electronic Conspicuity have feted this as a great achievement. Users will tell you that when its bad weather the gliders are all on the ground but when its good they all seem to be in the sky and you will see lots. It can be daunting but they are there and you will see them and be glad you can.
Pilotaware will of course see PilotAware that's another possible 2000. Not all in the same place of course.
PilotAware will also give you a warning of mode C/S traffic in the vicinity with a relative height separation and a relative distance so thats the next 1200 sorted as far as physics is concerned. To get a bearing from bearing-less targets without the use of primary RADAR would take a genius to achieve particularly at £250. Of course if you have mode S you will not see anyone electronically so including Mode S as a conspicuity devise that will allow you to see anyone is a misnomer.
So that leaves the remaining 2-3000 who do not transmit anything. The answer here is
(i) Replace your existing kit with an ADSB transponder available but very expensive. You will then need something to view ADSB on and that will only be the very few folks who have ADSB as shown above.
(ii) Buy a FLARM unit. Power FLARM is the best it will show you FLARM traffic ADSB and C/S and FLARM equipped equipment will see you Cost will be £1500 plus
(iii) Buy an ADSB transceiver and turn off your Mode S ( a bit counter productive as you will still only be able to see ADSB and Mode C/S) £600
(iiii) Use PilotAware, See 2000 PilotAware users, 2500 gliders, 12000 Mode C/S as bearing less targets and get voice alerts
I think you will find that this is more than 10% of the total receivable fleet.
We will continue to do our best to provide the greatest conspicuity for the lowest cost and really appreciate all views on how we can do this better. perhaps we are missing a trick?
Keith
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hello keith
thank you for your detailed reply.
just to clarify a few points, the number of ga aircraft in the uk as published by caa jan 2018 approx 20,000
all types. please find attached pdf of the breakdown. as regards percentages i'm sure you have a better understanding than i.
also i think that everyone appreciates your efforts to increase safety.
i know i do.
perhaps i was expecting more from pilot aware. i don't know.
but these things have to be said in the interest of moving forward.
on sat a pilot i know said he has pa at home in a draw, does not use it. don't work for him
maybe the tech to much for him. who knows
i wonder how many people have bought pa and put it in the draw and not bothered to pursue getting it to work.
anyway by the by back to real issue what is the way forward.
the caa preferred route is adsb (and they usually get their way in the end)
but as you say very expensive.
also size and weight, ok for aircraft but not gliders with their limited power supply etc.
it's certainly a conundrum.
i dont know the answer.
i await further comments.
regards
tony
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Hi Tony
Thanks for your response and the register. I will study this and use it to increase my understanding
also i think that everyone appreciates your efforts to increase safety.
Thanks on behalf of the team
perhaps i was expecting more from pilot aware. i don't know.
Can you elaborate on this please it will really help us to understand what you expected. What aircraft do you fly?
on sat a pilot i know said he has pa at home in a draw, does not use it. don't work for him
maybe the tech to much for him. who knows
i wonder how many people have bought pa and put it in the draw and not bothered to pursue getting it to work.
PilotAware is very feature rich to meet the requirements of our users. This requires the unit to be very configurable to meet all people tastes. Consequently this requires the user to read the operating instructions to understand how it works to get the best out of it. Perhaps we should build a dumbed down version however this is defeating the objective somewhat? Its a bit like an iPad the more you investigate its functionality the better it gets (other tablets are available). 95+% of the issues that we get (apart from simply not using the correct power supply) are solved by pointing the user to to Operating Instructions. Horse and water come to mind. However we need to learn if we are doing it wrong.
the caa preferred route is adsb (and they usually get their way in the end)
but as you say very expensive.
also size and weight, ok for aircraft but not gliders with their limited power supply etc.
it's certainly a conundrum.
This is not the real issue. As you have independently pointed out there are 20,000 flying thingies on the UK register. This does not include paragliders, hang gliders and drones which do not have an ICAO number. If all of these aircraft were to transmit EC at 1090MHz using the old fashioned and inefficient modulation technique (Pulse Position Modulation) demanded at that frequency then there is not the bandwidth to accommodate them and something would have to go. Until it has been proven by a peer reviewed exercise that this is not the case then ADSB cannot be mandated even if the powers that be wanted to and at the moment both the CAA and EASA have said that they don't want to mandate anything. The reason that 1090MHz is the preferred solution is that it is a licensed frequency for aviation and therefore has fidelity and can be controlled. We need to understand this and take direction from the CAA but nothing has changed in this respect for 20 years. In the meantime we either wait or develop stuff. We prefer to do the latter.
Thanks for your input and help
Keith
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morning keith
moving forward
bear in mind i am not a techy person so forgive my ignorance in that area.
and i know this going to seem a radical change of direction for pa.
why continue to use pa hardware & establish base stations.
why not create an app for ios and android which sends location data etc to your server
which in turn sends traffic details back to the app.
(google and god knows who else have been tracking us for years)
live weather and all sorts of things could be added later.
it solves the hardware problem our friends in the gliders micro lights can run the app on their phone or whatever.
and later on a cut down phone for drones. you get my drift.
the problem as i see it is initial takeup.
as you have pointed out pa has 2000 units out their.
offer said app for free to those people and i'm sure the uptake would start the roll.
you are in the ideal position to do this. customers trust you, you are respected by the powers that be,
your company could do it.
i know it means a complete change in direction for pa
but someone is going to do it before long.
or as is probably the case i'm talking rubbish
regards
tony
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Simple answer
Mobile technology does not work in the air.
In fact it is not legal to use you mobile phone in the air as it contacts too many base stations and swamps the system.
So long story short we thought of this a couple of years ago and dismissed it for several reasons.
Keith
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morning keith
moving forward
bear in mind i am not a techy person so forgive my ignorance in that area.
and i know this going to seem a radical change of direction for pa.
why continue to use pa hardware & establish base stations.
why not create an app for ios and android which sends location data etc to your server
which in turn sends traffic details back to the app.
(google and god knows who else have been tracking us for years)
live weather and all sorts of things could be added later.
it solves the hardware problem our friends in the gliders micro lights can run the app on their phone or whatever.
and later on a cut down phone for drones. you get my drift.
the problem as i see it is initial takeup.
as you have pointed out pa has 2000 units out their.
offer said app for free to those people and i'm sure the uptake would start the roll.
you are in the ideal position to do this. customers trust you, you are respected by the powers that be,
your company could do it.
i know it means a complete change in direction for pa
but someone is going to do it before long.
or as is probably the case i'm talking rubbish
regards
tony
There are a number of problems with using an App for this kind of thing...
Mobile phone networks have been developed for coverage at ground level, as soon as you head up into the air coverage is patchy as you can hit a number of base-stations. Generally you don't notice the gaps in data transmissions, as reading a webpage is pretty static once content has arrived. This application requires a steady stream of time critical data.
The other killer for this is latency, especially if poor quality or low data rates are all that you can rely on (e.g GRPS over 3G/4G). Who does the filtering of the data, if you just transmit where you are, does a back end server only then send you data that is close to you? That would mean the back end has to keep track of all the flights going on, and calculate per transmitter who else is there, then send back too all those devices the pertinent data. This is a reasonable heavy thing to do. Plus it needs to be resilient to be on any use. If you just re-broadcast the data, then the available data rates in the air will cause problems with data going missing.
Accuracy of location on a device is also a problem, most phones have GPS, some better than others. But GPS for altitude measurement, is poor. You need barometric altitude to accurately compare heights between aircraft in any given vicinity - it is the only stable reference between them.
This list goes on, but you get the general idea...
edit: I see Keith has put the shorter answer up as I was typing.
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Hi J
Thanks for your detailed explanation. Better than my short and sweet and well stated.
Cheers
K
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Hi J
Thanks for your detailed explanation. Better than my short and sweet and well stated.
Cheers
K
Forgot an important one.. There is also the issue of an App on a phone, if your using the same device for Nav (SkyDemon et al) then you would, probably, need another device to just handle the EC App, and probably multiple data contracts too. When a phone says it's multi-tasking it is, kind of, but things will get throttled as battery usage and temperature increases.
My personal favourite add-on to the likes of PAW would be to replace the SDR dongles with a single bit of hardware, supporting multiple receive channels. It would take quite a load off the Pi and be better at the job than an SDR dongle. Just need to have slightly different radio channels for ADSB and UAT. Pain to develop but better long term. I did some basic proof of concept stuff on it last year as a pet side project, but put it aside to push forward with another box of tricks I have being launched soon.
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ok thanks everyone for info
now i know.
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Interesting (nerdy) facts about mobile base station antennas:-
The vast majority of antennas used in base station installations have elevation half-power
beamwidths of around 4–15 degrees.
The antennas have 'electronic' beam tilting systems such that the beam can be pointed downwards to the near horizon so that little RF is wasted into the sky.
Unfortunately the antenna designers assumption that people won't be walking about at 3,000ft with a mobile stuck to the side of their head was correct, but they forgot to account for us pilots ;-)
Those simple looking planks at the top of the cell masts have some very clever tech inside, that I don't even begin to understand how they work.
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The antennas have 'electronic' beam tilting systems such that the beam can be pointed downwards to the near horizon so that little RF is wasted into the sky.
They also usually have a set downward tilt, and most also have what's called "RETs" - Remote Electrical Tilt - a motor where you can manually adjust the tilt by setting it remotely. Depending on the coverage wanted and interference, there will be an additional downtilt.
Those simple looking planks at the top of the cell masts have some very clever tech inside, that I don't even begin to understand how they work.
Some more than others. The latest tech on 4G is very advanced indeed, and allows for beam forming to adjust between higher handwidths or longer distances, to allow MIMO, to adjust the beam in real time as to where the users are located. I only half understand it and I work with it! The transceiving equipment and antenna work in harmony to provide this.
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Just adding my comments to this topic. I was in the same position as others here, I initially had a Zaon MRX running, experimented with PAW, built my first unit using the original bridge, continued experimenting more but eventually put it away, similar as others have done, basically because there were cables everywhere and it looked a mess. Then last year I bought a Flarm Eagle and connected it up to my PAW and since then it is incredible the number of gliders I have been able to spot. At that point I really looked at antenna positioning, found a nice box to contain it all, tidied it up, since then never looked back..
The picture below is a screenshot of a glider circling 200 feet above me. Without Flarm added to PAW, the chances are, I might not have known, especially as I tend to fly outside the reach of stations where OGN could be transmitted to me.
(https://steve-paul.homeserver.com/Flarm2.jpg)*
The cost of Flarm Eagle was around €700 and the range is more than adequate - I tested the reception range of my PowerFlarm and was being seen 40km away. Even if Gliders transmit at a lower power level and I only get to see them from 5km, they will still see me a looooong way off....
Also, with Flarm Eagle, I have been able to remove the GPS from the PAW, using just the GPS from the Flarm Eagle so fewer cables and it works better than (e.g.) the Flarm Mouse GPS seemed to perform (however my plane is admittedly a plastic airplane so I don't know how it's suitability in your typical P28A / C172 Spam Can would be ;) )
Since adding the Flarm Eagle, I don't fly anywhere without PAW on, it works and I see so much traffic whereas in the past, I thought I was truly on my own, in this big open sky so if you're doubting it, I would certainly recommend you spend the time and money to get the system running. I also spent the time sorting my aerials, tidying the cables up - the installation now looks clean.
The competition I used to run during a flight - you know the one: - who spots traffic first, one of my passengers or I - has now become a competition: - who spots traffic before PAW / Flarm does? Flarm / PAW is winning by around 2000:0 - at least, I can't recall not seeing an aircraft without it being on my screen.....
The lower picture was a screenshot taken on a day with cloud ceilings at 1200 feet, I was scud running and had just departed from EDLB and was heading toward EDDG - the turn north after departure was to set me on direct track towards my destination. You can see the two dutch aircraft flying close to each other at my height. Once they became visible on my system, I diverted east and flew in behind them. Just imagine neither of us knew the other were there.....
(https://steve-paul.homeserver.com/Scud2.jpg)
At the end of the day, the lookout still needs to be as vigilant as ever but to be honest, seeing 90% of the traffic out there electronically is better than only seeing (e.g.) 50% and missing the rest....
*server where the picture is hosted is offline between 2am and 8am to save energy ;)