Messages

1

General Discussion / Re: Mode S and C detection - something changed for the better?

« on: July 06, 2017, 07:19:45 am »

Ian

As Lee suggested I posted this issue on the SD forum and pointed out that you could reproduce it. Is it possible to get a screenshot or some form of playback that Tim could use to debug?

http://forums.skydemon.aero/FindPost23836.aspx

Giles

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General Discussion / Re: Mode S and C detection - something changed for the better?

« on: July 02, 2017, 11:42:01 pm »

Hi Lee

The "behind" warning was visual on the SD app - so obviously an SD issue. Not sure where they are determining the "behind" information from when tracking a bearingless mode c/s aircraft. I will report on the SD site.

On a separate issue did you get to look at the track that I uploaded. I thought you might be interested to look at the audio warnings from PAW as they were repeated numerous times when I was following a bearingless c/s aircraft G-BYWY. Or is this expected behaviour.

Giles

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General Discussion / Re: Mode S and C detection - something changed for the better?

« on: July 02, 2017, 10:19:53 pm »

Hi All

I had the same "behind" alert on SD when flying to Fishburn (have uploaded the track previously). It was very confusing and caused me to keep looking behind me! Very worryingly when I played back the track on FlightAware the aircraft was actually in front of me but never seen due to the miss reporting on SD.

Maybe someone should be reporting this to SD.

Giles

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General Discussion / Advertising Flyer

« on: June 10, 2016, 04:56:21 pm »

Just before I create something myself I was wondering if anyone has produced an Adverting Flyer that can be posted at airfields and clubs?

On a mission to "get the word out"!

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General Discussion / Re: Order of precidence - PAW and ADSB

« on: June 10, 2016, 04:50:42 pm »

Peter

Thank you. My reason for asking about the precidence was that I was starting to wonder if P3I transmissions were being masked by ADSB or mode S as in many hours of flying with the PAW I have not seen another P3I transmission.

I appreciate that broadly the same information is transmitted on P3I and ADSB, so there is no need to differentiate between them for traffic avoidance purposes - but for the purpose of building the community and "getting the word out" that for a pilot to be able to see that another aircraft just landed or on the radio is using PAW that it may go some way to getting more devices in the air. My assumption was that by appending a short word at the end of the (rare) P3I alerts would both not distract and would be technically fairly simple. But probably wrong!

The question about precedence was more interest than anything. So if an aircraft is transmitting both ADSB and P3I I assume from your answer that the distance and signal with display a non zero figure - so in effect ADSB takes precedence over P3I?

6

General Discussion / Re: Enhancement Requests - FR24

« on: June 10, 2016, 04:16:47 pm »

Hi Lee

Just a thought. FR24 displays FLARM and it also displays triangulated (MLAT) locations for mode S transmitting aircraft (above about 2500ft). Has anyone spoken to FR24 to see if you could somehow receive their stream while airborne to display FLARM and Mode S positions? And maybe they might be interested in including an P3I receiver in their devices to display PAW equipped aircraft - a kind of quid pro quo for using their stream?

As I say probably a dead end and not feasible - but a thought.

7

General Discussion / Getting the word out and some musings/wishlist

« on: June 10, 2016, 04:07:44 pm »

I have flow 10+hrs recently over the south of England with the PAW fitted - mainly around Salisbury, Popham, Marlborough, Bournemouth areas but slightly disappointingly I don't seem to have picked up a single other PAW user. ;-( Where are the 400+ other users?

I think the system is BRILLIANT, works really well and is a massive safety leap forward. Well done everyone involved.

I am using the PAW audio out directly into my headset (via external 3.5mm) which works great - although the volume seems to keep reseting - and I have runway HD. I mainly rely on the audio and I am getting hundreds of mode S traffic warnings and a some ADSB traffic but as far as I can tell no other PAW aircraft.

Having used the PAW fairly intensively in busy airspace and in and out of both large and small GA airfields my wishlist in order would be:

1. AMAZING if it could receive FLARM as I have had several low visibility gliders sailing past - I know this has been much discussed but it seems if FR24 can receive it then their must be a way.
2. Tweak the Mode S warnings to introduce a height separation and/or climbing/descending in the alert at the DANGER warning level alert. I find the progressive Traffic Notice - Alert - DANGER warnings can be very distracting but certainly keeps one's eyes out of the cockpit! I have been getting these warnings while on a LARS traffic service - so I assume the danger has not been too great and I have now reduced the Mode S setting to their minimums.
3. Introduce the ability to disable the audio alerts and P3I transmissions when on the ground.

Finally I am about to start an awareness campaign around my local airfields and plan to put up notices and offer to demo the system, help set up or even lend out my system. Anyone else up for it? Let's get PAW out there into every GA aircraft, glider, microlight, paramotor plus some commercials who still only seem to have Mode S and we will all fly more safely.

8

General Discussion / Order of precidence - PAW and ADSB

« on: June 10, 2016, 03:52:25 pm »

I was wondering what the precedence between ADSB and PAW. If an aircraft is transmitting both ADSB and P3I which will be displayed in the traffic log of the PAW.

I assume P3I takes precedence over Mode S!! Hope so!

Purely for interest and to help build the community it would be great to have some audible distinction between P3I and ADSB alerts. Maybe simply appending the word PAW to the P3I transmissions.

9

General Discussion / Re: Enhancement Requests - ground traffic

« on: June 02, 2016, 12:51:38 pm »

Lee. Thanks for quick response.

For Mode-S, all you have is relative altitude, but no distance, therefore it is impossible to calculate the angle to the horizon, consider the angle to the horizon of +500ft at a distance of 100m and 1000m - completely different.
The altitude difference could be added for Mode-S altitude if it is valuable, but this would be of the form
"Notice, traffic, 500ft above", thus not indicating elevation to the horizon

I think this is a great idea. Giving height adds a huge amount to the message. Roughly where to look vertically but more importantly with the decision whether to climb or descend.

Thinking about ADS-B/P3I alerts the perfect solution would be to announce relative height if "level" and within short range ie in danger of collision - then even if not visual one can decide whether to climb or descend. Maybe getting too complex but think it would be very useful safety aid.

1. A manual mute: I like this idea with a configurable timeout, in other words mute for X minutes, then automatically re-enable, or mute permanently (or pull out the plug!) This could solve the issue of Taxi, Take off & Landing

My only comment is if a software mute how this would be accessed? Going into the configuration of the PAW in-flight is tricky. I feel a hardware mute is best, but implementing a time out would be difficult! Maybe just pulling the plug is simplest/best solution here! ;-)

2. Ground speed filter: if my speed is less than X Kns, then mute the audio.

Personally I really like this idea and I think this should also apply to P3I transmissions (both optionally from config).

Interestingly (as I am sure you know) the procedure for Mode S transponders is to leave on standby mode until entering the runway threshold or in the case of aircraft that have a sensor on the undercarriage until after take-off and similarly on landing to switch back to standby after vacating the runway or having touched down. It seems to me that this procedure is equally relevant to PAW but due to the lack of easily accessible controls on the PAW device that a more intelligent process is needed ie the speed filter.

These could both be config options, and in the case of Helicoptor, Paraglider, Hanglider, the speed option may not be a good choice.

Absolutely

Giles

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General Discussion / Re: Enhancement Requests - ground traffic

« on: June 02, 2016, 10:30:20 am »

Hi Peter. Thanks. That is really helpful to know how the Audio Alerts work. I had assumed that mode S used the relative altitude to calculate a level, above, below warning. Is that something in the pipeline?

audio alerts on the ground, which we are trying to decide the best way to deal with, without simply 'turning them off' and letting pilots taxi out into for example the path of an un-noticed and perhaps non-radio aircraft on final.

From my personal prospective (and as an active pilot) by far the primary purpose of PAW is to provide a "see and be seen" tool while flying cross country - where a combination of high closing speeds, poor aircraft visibility and other cockpit distractions create a potential collision risk. In my personal opinion "electronic" ground based traffic warnings are not so necessary, as other aircraft are much easier to be seen and pilots more attuned to the risks during taxi, take off and landing phases. In my opinion audible warnings may even contribute negatively due to the distraction, complacency and the tendency to manually switch off the PAW. However I realise that is my opinion and may not be held by others - however a configurable setting would allow individual choice.

in active aircraft as the inbounds may still benefit from a reminder that you are there on the taxi way or threshold.

The same comments as above. In this critical phase I want to be focused on the landing area and circuit traffic not to be distracted by someone inbound 10km out transmitting mode S! Maybe a simple audio mute is the solution.

Anyway it is great to be able to enter the debate and I really applaud the work you are all doing in this critical safety area.

11

General Discussion / Re: Enhancement Requests

« on: May 31, 2016, 10:43:03 am »

Thats correct, but ADS-B as well as P3I (PAW)

What about Mode-S. Does that not give a level (but obviously not a direction) too? Also your thoughts on my suggestions to limit voice alerts and P3I transmissions when a PAW is stationary?

12

General Discussion / Re: Enhancement Requests

« on: May 30, 2016, 10:37:59 pm »

Ok. That makes sense. So if +/-20 deg between PAWs then level, so the further apart the greater the height difference to still be level.

13

General Discussion / Re: Enhancement Requests - Voice Alert filtering

« on: May 30, 2016, 05:50:15 pm »

The voice alerts directly from the PAW are fantastic. A really brilliant addition but can I add my vote to the request to provide some sort of filtering for stationary or ground based devices - ideally selectable in the configuation.

1. If the PAW device is stationary (or very low ground speed <20kts?) can it be set not to announce traffic warnings when receiving traffic from other nearby transmitters. While great for testing, it would be distracting to get traffic alerts from other aircraft, while sitting on the ground not moving. If optional in the configuration then I guess helicopter or other aircraft capable of flying at very low ground speeds pilots could decide to enable?

2. Similarly if the PAW device is stationary should it transmit PAW signals? I assume another PAW device will pick up the stationary transmitter and will just be clutter or may even be seen as a traffic threat to other aircraft flying low overhead. I assume that if stationary the transmitting aircraft is not a threat. Again this could be an optional setting for helicopters or paramotors etc. This is not tested so apologies if this is how it currently works.

3. Some sort of optional filter to switch off audible voice alerts when manoeuvring or close to the ground or on final etc at known airfields. I guess this could be simply unplugging the PAW audio out but would one forget to plug in again!! So maybe an optional filter based around proximity to ones manually inputed home airfield(s). If one inputted the altitude (asl) and GPS location of an airfield then a user could choose to optionally disable voice alerts when say within 1km or 500ft of the airfield(s). Just an idea? :-)

For interest what is the criteria for "same level' when annoucing traffic alerts? Within 1000ft? I was getting "same level 1,2,3 o'clock" warnings from aircraft flying between 500-1000ft all above me when I was on the ground (testing in the garden!). Assume this is ADSB traffic as no PAW transmissions seen and the directional warning I assume means the aircraft must be transmitting GPS location - so not Mode S. Also I assume they were flying above 500ft all as I live in a village and aircraft we are light GA aircraft several km from the nearest airfield! I see there is a setting for Mode-S sensitivity but there does not seem to be something similar for PAW and ADSB traffic.

4. Therefore following on from above what about a setting to adjust the altitude difference that triggers audible traffic warnings for low, high and same level traffic?

Hopefully this is helpful and will provoke some thought and discussion for possible future improvements.

14

General Discussion / Re: Distinguishing PAW, ADS-B and Mode S

« on: May 23, 2016, 10:49:33 pm »

Thanks. So the main indicator of the traffic detected being from a PAW transmission is the SQ column displaying Group-Id which by default will be set to PAWGRP?

What about the other columns? Assume these are not displayed if PAW but I have noticed that most transmissions that I have seen do display a SIG - so I assume ADSB - but most have no data in the other columns. What are these transmissions? Why do some AADSB have SIL/SDA etc but other not?

SIG - Signal strength? 0- 250??
Vers - Version.  0,1,2
NACp - Navigation Accuracy Category for Position. 0 - 11
SDA - System Design Assurance. 0 - 3
NICa - Navigation Integrity Category. 0 - 11
SIL - Source Integrity Level 0 - 3
SILs - SIL supplement. 0,1

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General Discussion / Distinguishing PAW, ADS-B and Mode S

« on: May 23, 2016, 04:00:10 pm »

Is there a way to distinguish the type of traffic received in the PAW traffic interface (not on SkyDemon or RunwayHD)? I assume the traffic with no distance is Mode S but how does one distinguish between PAW and ADSB? Also can anyone explain the various columns displayed in the PAW traffic interface. I would like to know when I am seeing another PAW transmission.

Similarly does Sky Demon or Runway HD differentiate between ADSB and PAW when it displays traffic?