PilotAware
British Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: julianwebb on April 13, 2016, 08:48:36 pm
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Hi Lee,
I got the following email from the BMAA to say the process to enable ADS-B on my TRT800H was via a PAW. Seems a very strange process but hey I'm planning to buy one anyway just wondering when they will be available?
This was the email I got from the BMAA and I think the LAA have the same process:-
At the moment we are accepting applications for this (ADS-B) using the standard modification application form, and once received we are then completing an short inspection schedule to be signed by a BMAA inspector, together with verification of the ADSB out settings using a screen shot from a Pilotaware. There is currently no charge for this, provided both the Transponder and the GPS are already approved.
We will be publishing a standard minor modification application for this shortly.
Regards
Julian
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For an ADS-B only version, without the RF module, which is what you need for verifying your transponder, you can make one now if you want. You'll need to buy the bits yourself though. See the known good hardware.
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Hi Julian,
I spoke to the BMAA Tech Office about their 'Non-certified ADSB out' modification approval procedure a couple of weeks ago as I'm still trying to get my own ADSB- Out setup formally approved. They are still working up the procedure and paperwork, hence the suggestion to use a 'standard mod application form' meantime until they get a 'standard minor mod' finalised.
To support work previously done by Steve Hutt (with his FASVIG hat on), I confirmed how easy it is to provide a screen grab from the PAW traffic log to show SDA and SIL = 0, (which we currently need to be able to prove) providing of course that your transponder can be correctly configured to these settings. Rob M seemed suitably impressed at how easy this is, though it does of course require access to someone local with an operational ADSB in PAW - preferably when your Inspector is present so (s)/he can see the result for her/himself - (though this wasn't actually stated). The 'Testing' PAW doesn't even need to be in an aircraft. I showed screen grabs to my own local inspector taken from a PAW on the ground and he was also impressed at how easy it is to obtain the necessary proof of SIL and SDA and is up for confirming local mods.
Rob M did ask if I would be prepared to assist with any local (South Scotland) applications and I said I would be pleased to help get things moving (and in doing so prove PAW's effectiveness in this role). Hopefully the BMAA will get the standard minor mod sorted shortly so we can all move forward in a more simple fashion.
Regards
Peter
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Julian, where are you based? Any number of us with PAWs could provide you with the relevant screenshot.
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Hi Guys
It's all gone a bit quiet so I guess you're all working very hard, but any update on progress of the finished unit?
Regards
Dave
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Hi Dave
We understand your eagerness... we are too!
Nearly there
Testing done
Good results
Manufacturing volume now
Weeks not months
Exciting
David Styles
PilotAware Team
(http://www.pilotawarehardware.com/pics/PAW1.jpg)
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Latest News
http://forum.pilotaware.com/index.php/topic,361.0.html (http://forum.pilotaware.com/index.php/topic,361.0.html)
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Great news! Good things are always worth waiting for so "well done" to the team!
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So what does this mean to any of us who have a PAW unit that is PRE this next release of Electronic Magic ?
Will the old version still work?
Interestingly you say " Some of us minions, which includes a few chartered engineers, an airline
pilot or two, an LAA inspector, a flying instructor, a genius and and a
muppet, have been sworn to secrecy regarding the excellent test results
that we all recently saw, despite dodging the poor weather over the past 3
months, at Hinton in the Hedges and Long Marston. "
Who is the Muppet ? I just placed a bet with William Hill on it being Harry 8) I hope it is because I have put ' Liberia's deficit' on it ;D
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Oooooh, wonder what.....
"we will let you know in the next few days, regarding the increased functionality of PilotAware "
will be? 8)
deker
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Hi Ferry air
Will the old version still work?
Yes but you will need the new Bridge if you want to see anything other than ADSB.
If you built a PAW before the state of the nation address where we told you not to buy any more wireless things units then Aviation Hardware and Technology who will be selling the hardware will be offering a special price if you return your wireless things units so that you are not out of pocket. Generous of them eh?
If you built a PAW after this date (so its currently ADSB only) then you will need a new Bridge and licence to pick up the P3i signals.
The wireless things radio will not work with the new one as its wasn't up to the job and works on a slightly different frequency within the chosen band.
I hope that this is clear and answers your question :D
Keith Vinning
PilotAware Team
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Hi Keith
I have the full spec PAW with the old Wireless-things Tx/Rx (which I added just after the SON Address so fully expect to pay for a new bridge) but assumed that the licence I had would still work until expiry date on the home screen. Will the bridge only item be available at the same time as the full units you are referring to or am I going to have a longer wait for that.
Regards
Alan
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Hi Alan
Bridges will be available at the same time
Keith Vinning
PilotAware Team
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I have been holding off applying for licences for my 2 builds until the future of the bridge became clearer, although I have 2 of the Wirelessthings devices that I bought just immediately before the "hold-off" advice was issued. These will now be redundant. Now with this exciting news, and seeing that I have only some 24 hours to apply for the licences for my build, I can't see how to apply. The old Licence ..(deprecated) thread has vanished from the forum and I can't find the replacement mechanism. Not panicking yrt but ..."Help"!
Bill
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Hi Bill,
This is the link you need http://forum.pilotaware.com/index.php/topic,156.0.html.
It can also be found under 'Beta Licences' from the 'Home' screen.
Best regards
Peter R
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If you built a PAW after this [State of the Union Address] date (so its currently ADSB only) then you will need a new Bridge and licence to pick up the P3i signals.
Keith Vinning
PilotAware Team
Keith,
Please understand this is not a complaint, I am merely seeking clarification to avoid confusion later as your answer to Alan G above didn't make this point clear.
I fully appreciate that those of us who built and continued testing using ADSB only PAW(s) after the 'State of the Union Address' need to buy new Bridges to transmit and receive the PAW P3i signals. After the 'SOU' this was always going to be the case. Like Alan G however, I had understood that our existing 'beta development licences' would continue to work until their one year expiry date. Am I now right in understanding that these beta licences will ONLY continue to be valid for ADSB ONLY PAWs and that if/when we fit a new Bridge, the development licence will fall and we will have to purchase new 'full' licences to make the Bridges operational?
Of more immediate concern - your 'press release' implies that those of us who continued testing ADSB only units or doing Mode C/S development work and demonstrating / promoting PAW whilst waiting for the new Bridge will only be offered Bridges 'at the back of the queue' after the first 500 full kits have been put together, i.e. some two weeks after the first fully functional kits are released. This is in direct conflict with the fact that we were told from the start that all enquiries/sales would be dealt with strictly in order of registration on the PilotAwareHarware site and seems a bit of a harsh way to treat your loyal band of long-term testers!
Or am I misreading the 'press release'?
Best regards as always
Peter R
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Thanks Peter. Now trying to lash together the Pi's to obtain their respective MACs.
Bill
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Hi Peter
Thanks for your email. Sorry that you have been somewhat confused by recent posts on the forum please let me help to make things clear.
I fully appreciate that those of us who built and continued testing using ADSB only PAW(s) after the 'State of the Union Address' need to buy new Bridges to transmit and receive the PAW P3i signals. After the 'SOU' this was always going to be the case. Like Alan G however, I had understood that our existing 'beta development licences' would continue to work until their one year expiry date. Am I now right in understanding that these beta licences will ONLY continue to be valid for ADSB ONLY PAWs and that if/when we fit a new Bridge, the development licence will fall and we will have to purchase new 'full' licences to make the Bridges operational?
Worry not! Your fears on licensing are unnecessary and your original understanding is correct. In fact, its actually now going to be better than you thought. I will post the following message on the Latest News section so that others are not equally confused.
Post Beta Trial Licensing and Hardware Saleable Items
The beta trial of PilotAware will be coming to an end on 30th April 2016 and PilotAware Bridges and complete kits will soon be available through pilotawarehardware.com. During the beta trial there were early trialists who built complete units that included ADSB-In and P3i radios. Also there were those that have, on the advice given in the “State of the Nation Address” on 15th October 2015, built ADSB-In only units without P3i radios.
Firstly, to be clear, all beta trialists who supported the project and have registered for and obtained a licence up to 30th April 2016 will be issued with a licence that will be inclusive of the use of ADSB-In reception and P3i transmit and receive. Furthermore, all of these licenses will be re-set and extended so that they all expire on 1st May 2017. So this is a real bonus for all beta trialists who will be getting more than they expected in the way of the initial complementary license. ;D ;D
As far as the hardware is concerned, in order that we cater for the requirements of all, apart from accessories such as remote antennas, remote GPS etc. there will be 4 main saleable items that will be available from the website.
1. Complete PilotAware Kits including recommended Rpi, Case, Bridge, WiFi, ADSB RTL-SDR, GPS, SD Card, firmware and power lead.
2. *†Bridge units qualifying for a discount for beta trialists who built PilotAware units before 15th October and who return the ARF units to the Aviation and Hardware Technology PO Box which will be identified soon.
3. *Bridge units for beta trialists that built PilotAware units after 15th October. No discount applies.
4. Bridge units for new customers who want to build a PilotAware unit for themselves. This will require the purchase of a Bridge and a first year licence at £15 and £12 per year thereafter. Prices ex VAT.
*As identified above for beta trialists no licence renewal is required until April 30th 2017.
†Alternatively the qualifying discount can redeemed against a new Complete PilotAware Kit.
We have a list of who was issued with licences and on what date from our database.
Of more immediate concern - your 'press release' implies that those of us who continued testing ADSB only units or doing Mode C/S development work and demonstrating / promoting PAW whilst waiting for the new Bridge will only be offered Bridges 'at the back of the queue' after the first 500 full kits have been put together, i.e. some two weeks after the first fully functional kits are released. This is in direct conflict with the fact that we were told from the start that all enquiries/sales would be dealt with strictly in order of registration on the PilotAwareHarware site and seems a bit of a harsh way to treat your loyal band of long-term testers!
I guess from my post that it could be interpreted that the first 100 units were complete kits. This is not the case so sorry if this has also caused confusion. You will see from the 4 saleable items above that there are customers at different stages of engagement, all waiting patiently.
We do not want to be seen as disadvantaging any sector as all customers are important. Consequently 50% of the first batch will be built as complete kits and 50% will be available as Bridges only, of both full price and discounted variety.
We are encouraging our supplier to provide the second 400 Bridges as soon as possible as a follow on so that we can meet the demand and re allocate as necessary.
We really are working as hard as possible to get the units out to you juggling financial engineering and logistic issues on a daily basis. I hope that you can be patient for a little longer as we move to availability.
This is in direct conflict with the fact that we were told from the start that all enquiries/sales would be dealt with strictly in order of registration on the PilotAwareHarware site
This is not something that I recognise as the pilotawarehardware.com site registration was for communication when the units were available not for an allocation basis. To do this we would have had to distinguished between an enquiry and a sale by taking money which is something that we didn't want to do until we have product available.
I hope that this makes it clearer. More information will be available over the next week.
Keith Vinning
PilotAware Team
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Hi Keith
Thanks for your full and frank explanation of the current situation and your expectations for the next few weeks. I'm sure that any impatience that may be coming through in anyone's posts is definitely not directed at the PAW team . I, for my part, am just itching to get my grubby PAWs (pun intended) on a fully functioning PAW in order to be able to demonstrate to anyone who I can capture for long enough to expound its virtues and persuade them to get one.
I had been hoping by now to have a fully functioning GPS attached to our transponder to enable further, more accurate range testing of the non-directional Mode C alerts but it looks like a fully functioning PAW might be first to arrive.
Congratulations to all for the great work.
Regards
Alan
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Alan
Thanks for your support as always
Keith
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Hi Keith,
Thanks for your very open and comprehensive reply. As I said, I wasn't complaining, just getting a bit frustrated I suppose and possibly reading between the lines a bit and getting answers which weren't actually there. It's all much clearer now and I must say the intention to extend all beta licences 'til 30th April 2017 is a very generous and unexpected bonus.
As AlanG says, there was no criticism of the PAW Team intended whatsoever. I know how hard you guys have all been working and certainly don't envy your daily 'juggling', never mind the logistical nightmare of releasing a new and heavily anticipated product into such an enthusiastic market. I will try to restrain myself, but can hardly wait to get the full system running so I can show all those I've 'demo'd' the ADSB-only PAW to over recent months how effective it actually is in its fully functional form (and also so I can see AlanG sneaking up on ME for a change!!). I even have an Air Avionics F---m dipole (left over from my now redundant -because it never worked properly - PowerFl--m) ready fitted and sitting waiting to connect up to my new PAW Bridge as soon as I can get it installed !
Keep up the good work, you have my full support as always.
Best regards
Peter
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Thanks Peter
Good to clear things up and we are pleased that you appreciate the licence extension.
Cheers
Keith
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Hi Keith,
I brought a components to build two Pilot Aware units complete with ARF prior to 15th October 2015. In the end I only built, licensed and tested one unit because of the issues with the original ARF unit, and the subsequent State of Nation Address.
Would I be eligible for a license for both units, or do I need to apply for a second Beta Licence by COP today?
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I can confirm that the Beta licence system still worked as off a couple of hours ago.
I finally managed to make the time to get mine fired up. The first was very successfully completed, the MAC obtained, the licence application completed and the software key received. The second however has repeatedly failed the installation process, so I switched to a Pi 2B but have had the same result there. I suspect that I may have SD card issues, so I'm now going through the format and software loading routine on all SD cards that I can find here in the house, hoping to find another that will enable me to complete the installation process. I'm not getting very far into that at all and unfortunately I don't have a HDMI monitor handy to watch the process, so I'm dependent on the flashing green LED.
if I can't find one that works, my second unit may not make the Beta cut-off, as I wont be able to go and buy another SD card until the shops open tomorrow but that will be after mid-night, UK time. Frustrating!
Bill
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Bill, I may be wrong, but you don't have to get the unit working other than to get the MAC address. I don't think there is anything to stop you using the same SD card in both units?
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I had that same thought a short while ago Ian but stopped short of trying it in case the SD card had been written to with essential files that might be corrupted if I tried to boot another of my Pi's.
I guess that I have nothing to lose by trying it. At least I now have the licence for that one, so it should be recoverable if I do damage something. Anybody else have a thought on this approach?
I now have the failed Pib+ and three Pi 2B's lined up in front of me, all having quit the installation after just a few flickers of the green LED.
Bill
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Bill, I didn't change the original Working SD card. Just plugged it into the second RPi and booted with a LAN cable connected. Read the MAC off the router stats.
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I'll try it shortly, Ian. My wife has just managed to give the microwave oven convulsions by firing that up but having forgotten to put the food inside first. I'll have to go and see if I can salvage that now. Hopefully the arcing will be fixed by cleaning the waveguide mica cover but ...?
Bill
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Meant to add that I dont have a LAN cable handy either.
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She wasn't trying to jam your PAW signals was she :-)
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She may as well have been trying to jam them, Ian. Looks to be a matter of having zapped a hole through the mica cover but in so doing, it has carbon deposits on both sides of the cover that seem to be interleaved in the mica layers. I'll have to see if I can get a new cover. It would of course likely still work without the cover but she won't have a bar of that!
It's been a frustrating day. First it rained, continuing the pattern of the past couple of days. Normally, after the months of drought we have had, I would have been delighted with that but we had arranged to tackle some tasks that really need doing now. So instead, we tackled the replacement of the fuel hoses on our paddock-basher, the X-Air, after I had sourced what must be the last remaining 1/4" fuel hose to be found in northern Tasmania. What did we find when we got into that job but that the original builder and probably the kit supplier too, had used 7/32" hose in a couple of spots! End of progress there until I find some 7/32" hose. Probably rarer than hens' teeth now.
So, attention turned to getting the licences organised for the PAW units, only to have one of those fail miserably too. Now, the microwave. Sometimes, you just wonder whether it is all worth the effort ....................
Bill
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OK, panic is over. The microwave is still dead but my second Beta licence for the Pi B+ is complete, with a few hours to spare. My thanks to Ian, whose suggestion that I try the one SD card that managed to install PAW on the first Pi on the second, worked a treat. Luckily, since it looks as if I will need 2 working units for future development here in the Antipodes, with the non-availability of 868MHz here downunder.
Good to know my diagnosis of suspect SD cards appears to have been correct. Maybe some of the old electronics skill is still there after 50+ years!
Now for a glass of red or two over the evening meal, then maybe watch the population of Midsomer reduce by a couple more. Don't know what the population growth rate is for the UK but that village appears to have the game skun.
cheers
Bill
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I live in Midsomer county!! Where it is filmed. Often see filming in Thame or the local area.
With Morse and Lewis just down the road in Oxford, thankfully it is not a murder a minute around here. Though we did have a beheading with a Samurai Sword a few years back :o
Thame is sometimes a bit more like 'The Vicar or Dibley', which is also filmed not far away.
Lees office is also just down the road.
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Of more immediate concern - your 'press release' implies that those of us who continued testing ADSB only units or doing Mode C/S development work and demonstrating / promoting PAW whilst waiting for the new Bridge will only be offered Bridges 'at the back of the queue' after the first 500 full kits have been put together, i.e. some two weeks after the first fully functional kits are released. This is in direct conflict with the fact that we were told from the start that all enquiries/sales would be dealt with strictly in order of registration on the PilotAwareHarware site and seems a bit of a harsh way to treat your loyal band of long-term testers!
This is not something that I recognise as the pilotawarehardware.com site registration was for communication when the units were available not for an allocation basis. To do this we would have had to distinguished between an enquiry and a sale by taking money which is something that we didn't want to do until we have product available.
I hope that this makes it clearer. More information will be available over the next week.
Keith Vinning
PilotAware Team
Keith,
I hate to labour the point but still feel a great sense of injustice on behalf of all the loyal beta testers who put their own time and money behind the project to further the testing and development of PAW and who have also been enthusiastically active unpaid ambassadors, demonstrating and advertising the product, encouraging people onto the PAW and Hardware websites, answering queries and supporting others through the forum or face to face over the past months without any thought whatsoever of reward - other than that by doing so we were helping to contribute to air safety and hopefully supporting and lightening the load of the 'Development Team'.
My original concern on reading your 'Press Release' was, as previously stated, based on my clear understanding from statements made during the presentations at Flyer Live that registration on the Hardware website would prioritise the allocation of kits or Bridges when they became available, thus ensuring that those who signed up early could expect to receive new RF boards or kits from the early batch.
From your reply, I was beginning to think I had imagined this, and was resigned to putting it down to failing memory, until I came across the report in the News section of the PilotAware Hardware site this evening, issued following Flyer Live, which clearly bears out my original contention.
Introductory Prices published
Posted by administrator on December 01, 2015 / Posted in Uncategorized
We decided not to do a “Flyer Show Live special price”, we decided not to do a “PilotAware Forum members special price”, we decided to do an introductory price for everyone !
Register your email address on any of the “email me when in stock” buttons on the site. Either on the front page or on the products.
When we are ready to ship we will send you an email that stock is available.
We will do this in strict registration order, so register your email today.
Whilst not expecting any reward, we were as early adopters who signed up as soon as the Hardware site came on line, at least assured prioritisation when the new RF units became available, over those who simply sat and waited for others to do all the work.
I fully appreciate that the significant time taken to bring development of the new RF Bridge to market may have produced commercial pressures leading you to change your priorities, but am disappointed that this may mean early adopters like myself who registered immediately the Hardware site went live, having to wait even longer to complete fully working PAW units if for any reason we are unable to place formal orders as soon as the 'shop' goes live.
Nevertheless, as I have said many times, I remain supportive of the project though I will be disappointed if this situation cannot be satisfactorily resolved.
Best regards
Peter
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Hmmm, don't know where my earlier response went.
Lovely looking country, your county, Ian. Actually, I was a night early. 'Murders' is on tonight. Last night Father Brown saw the population of his village reduced too. Chances are that was also filmed in your area? ;)
On Peter's post, I also recalled that advice in the bulletin of 1 December, although I also think it may have been made earlier too, closer to the October announcement but can't now find it. I still intend to get at least one bridge for the basis of my experimentation, even though it is using a frequency that wont be able to apply here. Obviously though, I won't have the same desire for early acquisition.
Bill
Powranna, Tasmania, Oz.
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I hate to labour the point but still feel a great sense of injustice on behalf of all the loyal beta testers who put their own time and money behind the project to further the testing...
I'm an early adopter. The PAW team are offering me a rebate for my old ARF.
What's not to like?
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Hi Peter,
I understand your frustration. You are correct in that Bridges and kits were due to be shipped in order of interest being registered. However I suspect that the realities of cash flow, bringing these products to market, require that kits must be shipped first as they will have greater mark-up and thus allowing more expedient manufacture of further units. There is also the fact that we Beta testers at least have ads-b capability for now. Those that didn't build a PAW don't have even this at the moment and we surely don't want them to drift away as we all want widest adoption as possible for the greatest safety benefit. I'm happy to wait a little longer for a Bridge as I trust Lee and Team to satisfy demand in the most expeditious way.
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Hi SteveN
Fortunately, I got involved in PAW just after the 'State of the Union Address' and so managed to avoid the 'ARF crisis'. Undeterred, I proceeded to build an ADSB PAW unit to run alongside my ADSB out Trig TT21. I was so impressed (e.g. by being able to tell my local ATC that... 'I can see the inbound traffic on my cockpit display'), that I went on to build a total of 4 to date (2 on Pi B+ and 2 on Pi 2B) to allow me to assess PAW's ADSB effectiveness using different component and antenna configurations and, after discussion with Lee and others at Flyer Live, to carry out fairly extensive testing on Mode C/S transponder signal alerts as part of the Engineering Sub Group.
I was delighted when the PAW team announced that those of you who went down the early ARF route would receive a rebate against the new RF Bridge to compensate you for your wasted outlay. In my opinion this was a gracious demonstration by the PAW Team of their appreciation for the work yourself and the other early beta testers had carried out. I of course will not benefit from any such discount when I buy my RF Bridge boards, but had the comfort of knowing that having registered my interest on the PAW Hardware site as soon as it went live, I should be offered the chance to buy a Bridge (initially just 1 - I'm not greedy) soon after they become available, to allow me to continue testing and demonstrating PAW to potential buyers.
Chris,
Yes it looks like commercial pressures and possibly also pressure of numbers (both of course good for PAW and in the long term therefore good for all of us) may have overridden the PAW Team's original intentions. If so it looks like we will just have to grin and bear it. PAW is still in my opinion the No.1 situational awareness tool for GA - and I have tried most, so I guess we will just have to let events take their course. At least I now have the satisfaction, such as it is, of knowing that my recollection of what was promised was correct.
Rant now over and toys firmly back in the Pram!
Best regards to both and to Lee and the Team for their hard work.
Peter
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Not really wanting to prolong this theme but it is interesting to observe the different interpretations that some of us had taken of the SOU messages.
On my part, at the date of the SOU bulletin, I had just taken delivery of my first ARF unit direct from Wireless things and had a second on its way to me at the time from Harkwell Services, the invoice for which was dated 6 October 2015 but which did not reach me here in Australia until a day or so after the SOU.
Once the SOU proclamation was made, I put both my PAWs aside to await further developments, since ADSB alone really didn't offer anything than already available via Flight Radar24 on my Android phone. Both were essentially built, as they had all bar the ARF installed but took them no further, waiting until I could get full functionality.
At the time, I thought my action was consistent with the advice in the SOU. I registered to be advised when the new transceiver had been identified but I did not proceed to obtain the licences. From the contents of Keith's recent post, I was in error in my assessment. I should have pushed forward and ran my PAWs as ADSB only devices, so as to qualify for the AFR trade-in scheme. Ah well....
Bill
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Hi Bill,
ADSB in only PAW is far better than FR24 as the aircraft you are seeing on your main 'nav' screen via Skydemon, EasyVFR etc are 'live' from the aircraft's transmitter antenna direct to your PAW receiver, and are not therefore subject to delays or gaps in FR24 coverage. That was what Chris (Moffrestorer) was reminding me of by 'we beta testers at least have ADSB capability for now.' He is of course correct and having the beta engineering software in my main unit (which can also detect mode 'S' - though only as a bearingless target) gives me an added bonus, so I should really count my blessings.
Definitely back in the fold.
Best regards
Peter
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Keith mentioned in his recent Bristol Strut talk the PAW team have large sums of money out to pay for the initial production run.
Compared to that our £30 quid each spent on an old ARF pales into insignificance. Adding one allowed me to in a small way be part of the development process and means we now have a great bit of kit at our disposal.
Steve
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Steve,
As I said above, great respect is due to all the guys like yourself who took that leap of faith and came on board at such an early stage. Without your work and testing down the ARF route, PAW might not have become the extremely powerful safety aid it now promises to be.
Looking forward to a very positive future and to helping Lee & Co's investment bear fruit!
Best regards
Peter
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Yes Peter. I was being a bit glib in my comment that ADSB from PAW added little to ADSP derived info on my Android phone, as I should have added "in my particular location here in quiet ( both aviation and environmental noise terms) Tasmania." Here the FR24 cover is good and all the big boys carry ADSB. It's the likes of myself in ultralights or GA that are the concern and ADSB there is virtually absent. Hence my interest in PAW. I freely concede the benefits of having the data in real time and also displayed on the nav screen though.
Bill
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All you guys have the great chance to have a PAW. It seams that I found that solution several days to late. I can't build my own - even ADS-B would far enough at the moment. My hope is now: please bring that bird to market!
I'm coming from a real different market - drone flying. My idea is: I want to have real time flight infos of aircrafts around my drone to avoid any problems. Ok, I go one step further as I fly only very low level (below 500ft). But also there is ADS-B-traffic. Medical helicopter, SAR and military. I will not see them on FR24... But I can see them with PAW. And the great benefit would be the co-work with SkyDemon what I use to plan my flight.
Greetings from Switzerland - a new country in your community (as I can see from the google-map :o )
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Hi Nique and welcome to the PAW forum.
Technically there is nothing to stop you still building your own PAW as public licensing is now available, but as kits are due very shortly it might be safer to wait. Interesting to read that you want to use it as a 'set of eyes' for drone flying to avoid conflict with other aircraft. That is very relevant in view of recent news reports here in the UK about a drone striking a landing airliner. There has been a bit of chat over recent months in the forums about the use of PAW with drones, principally I think to make the drone visible to aircraft, though I see no reason for the reverse not to apply.
I know the development team have this on their 'research list'' but with the workload of trying to get PAW ready for release to the public, this is presumably down the list a fair bit.
Meantime search 'drone' on the forum and you will get an idea of what has been said to date.
Best Regards
Peter
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Hi Lee,
Sorry if I'm so obtuse, but what does FCS mean, as it applies to your announcement today?
Finalised Complete Software??
Thx,
Chris
Aargh, just sussed it. First Customer Shipment!
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Hi Chris,
Sorry if I'm so obtuse, but what does FCS mean, as it applies to your announcement today?
Finalised Complete Software??
Doh ?!?
Apologies, its a software industry term, it means "First Commercial Shipment"
This is the period following the Alpha/Beta testing periods
Thx
Lee
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Na - it's not my intention to be seen from an airliner in the short final ::) But you are right and the problems with these airport-flyers is growing. I prepare myself (and some other professionals in Switzerland) for the next step. And I can imagine, that ADSB could be a step until radar-sensors for 2-3km are available for small UAVs.
I know the development team have this on their 'research list'' but with the workload of trying to get PAW ready for release to the public, this is presumably down the list a fair bit.
Meantime search 'drone' on the forum and you will get an idea of what has been said to date.
Thanks - I did: @Lee : Whats with the drone project? Any help required?
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Hi Nique,
Let me contact you directly regarding our thoughts on Drones
Thx
Lee
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An annnouncement by Lee today,(including the "FCS" reference? Nothing has been seen here.
Bill
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Bill
This is a reference to the post that Lee put on today in Latest News on this Forum
Keith
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Ah, thanks Keith. I must make a point of checking those frequently.
Bill
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Bill,
Now would be a good time to check... See:-
http://forum.pilotaware.com/index.php/topic,365.msg4944.html#msg4944
Very impressive by the way (I already run a Pi2B). Just waiting for the Bridge now!
Peter
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Thanks Peter. I have now changed my bookmark to point to the Home page. It was previously taking me straight to the General Discussion page :(
As you say, impressive and a good price for the complete bundle, although the exchange rate is less than favourable at this end. Like you though, I have already invested in the other components and now await just the bridges. I'm currently using the PiB+ but will now deploy a couple of my Pi 2B to the task.
Bill
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Hi Bill,
Fortunately I took the plunge a few months back and tried PAW on impulse on a couple of Pi 2B units, with very positive results. This meant I was able to see the new functionality right away as soon as I loaded the new software. As I say, the functionality is very impressive and the audio alerts (recorded by Lee's Daughter) are clear and effective. We (the engineering group) are still working on refining the trigger levels for the audio alerts, which I personally think are still just a bit too low - resulting in alerts for aircraft that don't present a significant risk, but otherwise I have now got used to the new audio system and am comfortable to rely on it.
Keep watching!!
Regards
Peter
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All sounds good, Peter. It's raining here again today, so hopefully I can find the time later this afternoon to set up my one known good 4Gb SD card and then see if I can get my Pi2Bs running - but hang on a second. They will have different MACs from the piB+s. How do we migrate from the old platform to the new using an existing licence?
Bill
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Read the Latest News post with interest, its amazing the functionality that's been added in a few months since the rally last year.
I updated my licence and software a couple of days ago. Since I've got a spare Pi2B handy I've tried swapping it into my existing hardware, which has been sat on my window sill running more or less continually and very reliably all winter (too much non flying weather!). It boots up fine, but as expected it is now showing licence expired on the configuration page, I'm guessing since the new Pi has a different MAC address? What do I need to do to swap my licence over to it?
Thanks
Gareth
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Gareth, has just picked up on a question I have as well.
If I have PiB+ and a Software Licence key obtained prior to 31/4/16(valid to May 2017) and wish to upgrade to a Pi2B, then we will need a new license as well as the CPU. Will it be £15 or £12 to upgrade?
Now this bit confuses me, easily done I know :)
Secondly after listening to customer requirements, through the PilotAware Forum, the latest release of software from PilotAware Ltd will now include two new features. The first of these is the ability to detect and display Mode S transponders that are in the vicinity of your aircraft and the second is an audio-out feed that reports the status of nearby traffic transmitting ADSB or P3i. This can be fed into your intercom or headset on an individual and bespoke basis.
...
We have shown during the beta trial that the Pi B+ is perfectly capable of handling the original workload of ADSB + P3I. However, by adding Mode S detection, Audio output and the additional interfaces for Dynon, Trig and Funke equipment, the CPU loading has increased. When using the Pi B+ this increase in loading affects the reliability and responsiveness of the core Traffic/GPS data feed to the navigational devices on the tablet etc.
In effect ADSB is also Mode-S (yes I am aware this is not quite true, but close enough in this situation). How can the detection and display of Mode-S be both original spec. and a power hungry add on? The display of Mode-S(ADSB) equipped traffic was part of the original workload and demonstrated at Flyer Live show. Did you mean the detection and display of Mode-A/C?
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Ian makes three of us now wondering how we upgrade our Raspberry Pi, in terms of licence migration, so as to take advantage of the new features.
Bill
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Hi Guys,
I'm only guessing, but obviously the beta licence is specific to the MAC address, so probably not migrateable (is that a word?). As Keith says in his News post, the B+ units still run with original ADSB functionality and as the whole ethos of see, be seen and avoid relies on the P3i Bridge part, new licences are being sold (once the shop opens - hopefully soon!!) with either full kits or Bridges. In the meantime, I see Lee has provided a link on the Licensing and Downloads page for a 28 Day Demo Licence. I haven't tried it, but this might be the answer to getting your Pi2s going until Bridges are released. Worth a try and please post to let the rest of us know if it works (or not).
Regards
Peter
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Hi Peter,
I am not sure how you post was aimed at?
We know the license will not be transferable to the Pi2B. The question was what will it cost is we upgrade the Pi Free, £12 or £15?
Who is Vince? The rest of the sentence supports my query.
I don't have a Pi2 or any sort yet, but want to be clear about what functions I will lose if I do not upgrade.
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Hi Ian,
As you will have seen, I have been chatting to Bill M out in Oz over the past few days about developments and my post was specifically in reply to his, though I thought Gareth (and presumably others including yourself) might benefit from what I suggested as a possible temporary workaround to get Pi2 units online. I'm afraid I can't answer definitively re licensing costs as that is not within my remit (principally beta testing of the mode 'S' functionality). I would, however, think that if you are building what is in effect a 'new' unit it would require a 'new' licence, obtainable through the purchase of a full kit or bridge as has been reported many times before. If I'm wrong, I'm sure Lee will correct me.
For 'Vince' please read Keithvinning - mental block, sorry Keith - I have corrected my earlier post.
In effect ADSB is also Mode-S...
Yes, in a way as it is derived from the same transmitter, but mode 'S' is not ADSB and is not displayed on beta or current B+ units.
In short, what you will 'lose' if you don't upgrade is the mode 'S' detection and the audio alerts, which you don't currently have on the B+ anyway, so not sure 'lose' is the right term. Perhaps better to look on any additional licence cost as a very worthwhile (and remarkably cheap) upgrade expense.
Hope this helps clarify the situation
Best regards
Peter
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Hi Peter,
So are you saying that the traffic that I can see on my Beta PiB+ is not mode S, but just ADSB?
My understanding was that ADSB Required mode-S to function. ADSB being the method of how Secondary Survailance Radar see a mode-S transponder. Extender squitter adds more data to ADSB. Need to have a read up on this tonight.
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Hi again Ian,
That's right. The Beta Pi B+ (without the original ARF board or Pilotaware P3i bridge) receives ADSB only.
Without getting too technical, an ADSB transmission is generated by the transmitter of a suitably set up Mode -S transponder independently of its Mode-S operation by adding position data from a suitable gps.
The ADSB data, which includes the aircraft identity, altitude and position is transmitted regularly and automatically by the aircraft independently of any Mode-S transmission.
Mode-S on the other hand is only transmitted when triggered by an external interrogation such as a ground based radar unit. When this happens, the Mode-S transponder 'replies' with a preset 'squawk' code, plus the aircraft's ID and altitude. Unlike ADSB, transponders do not transmit their location. Instead, this is worked out by the radar unit from the time ot takes to get an answer from the transponder plus the angle the radar head is pointing. Hence in a nutshell why receiving, decoding and providing meaningful warnings for Mode-S is more complicated.
Hope this helps
Regards
Peter
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Ian,
Extended Squitter (ES) is the function of transmitting ADS-B data from a Mode S transponder. Not all Mode S transponders are ES-capable. And ES-capable Mode S transponders need to have the ES function switched on plus be in receipt of valid position data from a connected GPS device.
It is also possible to have devices that only do ES, i.e. ADS-B Out, without the rest of the non-ES Mode S conventional transponder functionality. That is what the demo NATS LPAT (Low Power ADS-B Transceiver) does, as per CAP1391 (plus ADS-B In and very basic Mode C&S range detection).
Steve
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I'm a techy type, but just want to know why my beta PiB+ will no longer be able to see the ADSB broadcasts it currently can, once we move to the latest software. As per Keith's news.
:-[
I will have to bow to the greater knowledge of you guys as you work with this stuff.
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So will the Pi 2 become the new hardware standard and the B+ use phased out?
The new Pi2 has a much gruntier processor than the original B+, so I guess the additional processor overhead of decoding Mode S and extended squitter transmission and other new features needs the newer Pi version.
If so, my B+ will have to be evicted from its case to the shelf and a new Pi2 installed in place?
ATB
Deker
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Ian
You will still see the ADSB contacts that you have always seen. the Mode S referred to in this case are the non-directional or bearingless contacts that the engineering group were testing to assess the usefulness or otherwise of including these in the final product. As these are derived from the signal strength being received from the various transponders it required more calculations and therefore increased processor demand which Lee has decided requires the better RPi2B. As someone has already stated you will lose none of your existing functionality, still be able to fit the new bridge and use that but you will not receive bearingless warnings or voice alerts which are the added extras. You will have everything you originally expected to have from your PAW but if you want to benefit of the extra functionality you will have to upgrade. I'm in the same boat and I have been doing a lot of the testing on an RPiB+ and have experienced some of the dropouts referred to so I will have to invest in an RPi2B.
Hope that's clear to you and anyone else who is worried about this.
Regards
Alan
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Ian,
I think you're getting confused. As Alan has just posted, the PiB+ will still receive the ADSB contacts as it does at present, plus if/when you fit a PAW Bridge it will also transmit and receive 'similar' but specific P3i signals between your aircraft and any other aircraft within range similarly equipped. What Keith is saying is that by upgrading to a Pi 2, you would also be able to receive 'Mode-S' signals and the associated audio alerts - though you don't of course have to upgrade unless you want to. (But having tested the new system, I would seriously recommend doing so).
Hope this helps make things clearer
Best regards
Peter
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For 'Vince' please read Keithvinning - mental block, sorry Keith - I have corrected my earlier post.
Not to worry. As a PilotAware minion I am used to being called all things. My wife has been known to call me me Steve. Should I worry?
Keith (Vince, Steve or whatever) Vinning
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I think the air would be better cleared by a definitive statement by Lee (for example), on behalf of the team, rather than by individual members, on the RPiB to RPi2B licence upgrade requirements. While at it, include a definitive statement on just who will be entitled to participate in the "trade-in" offer on the old Wireless things RF deck. Keith's recent message about PAWs licenced before the October SOU announcement is at odds with the statements by Dave Styles on 1 December, when he said that the transceivers bought before the SOU would be eligible. I have just again come across Dave's advice in the Known Good Hardware thread.
To round all that off, I think a formal announcement should also include a definitive statement on the sales priority issue that Peter raised a few days back.
We all appreciate that changes in priorities, policies or strategies can be driven by economic, supply or other considerations but I for one would far preferred that such changes be announced publicly as soon as determined, such as was done in the SOU announcement back in October, rather than being left to dribble out in as they now appear to be. Of course, all that assumes that the marketing strategy has actually been determined
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Damn, this creaky old laptop is prone to enter its own return if pressure is applied to certain areas of the case. It posted my latest suggestion before I had finished editing it. Still, I think the message is there.
I'm not meaning to appear critical but only to aid common understanding on these points and certainly to clarify my own.
Cheers
Bill
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Peter, Alan and Steve,
I now understand what Keith and you have been trying to put across. However still confused by the terminology you are using.
For many months non-directional bearingless transponders have been referred to as mode A/C in all posts and it was the aim of PAW to try and provide some warning of these. Keith's news post is the first time I have seen these being called bearingless mode S.
Correct me if I am wrong :)
When mode A/C transponders are interrogated, they respond with the Squawk code and if mode C the pressure altitude encode by Gillham code.
When a Mode S transponder is Interrogated its response depends on the format of the interrogation. The response may be just the 24bit aircraft code, but can contain additional data.
Mode S transponders have co-located ADSB transmitter, which periodically transmits ADSB packets which contain data of interest to PAW such as Aircraft code, height and position.
ADSB packets can also be transmitted without a Mode S transponder.
Hence a PiB+ will be able to see a Mode-S transponder units ADSB packets as well as P3i packets. It will not have sufficient power to compute the distance of Mode A/C transponders (or voice alerts)
Why would PAW need to try and figure the threat distance from a Mode S transponders Bearingless transmission when it can also see it's ADSB packet? Which is why I am puzzled by Keith referring to them in his news update.
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Hi Ian
The confusion arises from the fact that all the latest generation of Xponders are Mode S Which broadcasts only "Altitude" info as well as the ident. info and most of them, if not all, are capable of producing ADSB-out when attached to a certified GPS and will then give positional info too. (Lat/Lon). Unfortunately a certified GPS is very expensive and so it is usually only the larger airliners that are so equipped. This was the reason for the trials we have been reading about recently which have now resulted in some GA aircraft being allowed to fit un-certified GPS to their Xponders to enable this extra positional info to be broadcast.
Ground stations, air traffic etc, obtain positional info from mode S only aircraft via the primary radar.
It's the ADSB-out that allows any suitably equipped (PilotAware, other adsb receivers are available) aircraft to receive all of this info and display it.
Lee and the team have been putting in a lot of effort to try to enable bearingless alerts for Mode A/C/S but this has been reduced to only Mode S now as the A/C proved not to be that useful and were even more processor hungry than the system could support.
I think that's more or less how it all works and if I've missed anything or got any of it wrong I'm sure someone will correct me. Hope I've not confused you even more.
Regads
Alan
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Hi Ian,
Some Mode S transponders have Extended Squitter (ES, the co-located ADS-B transmitter to which you refer). The earlier units do not have this and the transponder is similar to a Mode C but with the addition of transmitting the aircraft's ID code and flight code.
The later transponders with ES will not use the ES facility unless a GPS source is connected to the transponder and the ES is enabled. This is what the NATS trial and agreement to connect uncertified GPS has been all about. Until this is done, the Mode S transponder is effectively like the mode C type and will not transmit position data (via ES), so that's why PAW needs to work out where it is as its "bearingless". At present I imagine very small percentage of GA Mode S transponders are yet fed with a GPS source! If it's in a certified aircraft its likely to be way more complicated to impliment than for LAA and BMAA aircraft.
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Hi Ian,
Started this reply before Alan and Moffs responded but have posted anyway as it adds a little more info.
The key thing is that most Mode S transponders out in the field today (in GA aircraft) were not design to broadcast ADS-B , i.e. are not ES capable (Extended Squitter). And of those that are ES capable, the vast majority of those will not currently have a connected GPS to provide position data to the transponder and so will not be broadcasting ADS-B data. So, right now there are relatively few GA aircraft which are broadcasting ADS-B data.
The main reason why basic Mode S was introduced was to reduce the rates of transmission. With Mode S the ground station can interogate individual transponders by including the ICAO hex code of the target transponder and only that target will respond. With mode A/C the problem is that all Mode A/C transponders respond to every interrogation.
So.... PAW needs to calculate threat distance for non-ADS-B Mode S transponders based on signal strength plus can see relative height separation from the target's broadcast altitude. PAW also calculates threat distance and bearing and relative height from Mode S that is broadcasting ADS-B data but that is far simpler using the broadcast GPS position data. PAW can ignore any 'pure' Mode S broadcasts from the ADS-B broadcasting aircraft because it can correlate the same ICAO hex ID in the ADS-B messages and the 'pure' Mode S messages. I also believe that same Mode S transponder also outputs some 'pure' Mode A/C style messages (with no ICAO hex) and these are ignored too.
The difficulty as I understand it with trying to assess threat distance based on signal strength for Mode A/C broadcasts is to do with trying to correlate the Mode A/C data and Mode S data from the same aircraft, which I have been advised is almost impossible and hence presents the problem of systems showing two discrete threats when there is actually only one.
Steve
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Thanks Alan,
You haven't told me anything that I didn't know and much of it I posted above. In fact my understanding of Mode S and ADSB was pretty close to the mark all along. What has confused me is where we had referred to non-direction transmissions and mode A/C transmissions, are now being referred to as Mode S on this forum.
Ground stations, air traffic etc, obtain positional info from mode S only aircraft via the primary radar.
Not sure that is correct. My understanding is they use ADSB transmission if available, and verify it is bonafide against the Primary return. Otherwise they would not have needed to upgrade the radars?
Thanks Steve, that does make one thing I had forgotten, that Basic Mode S does not have positional data. Makes total sense now.
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Hi Ian,
Sorry, this was supposed to come before Alan, Chris and Steve's replies and your update but decided to post it anyway in case it helps others.
Yes, that (your second last post) about sums it up, though it's not quite as straightforward.
For many months non-directional bearingless transponders have been referred to as mode A/C in all posts and it was the aim of PAW to try and provide some warning of these. Keith's news post is the first time I have seen these being called bearingless mode S.
As I explained above, the transmissions from all transponders, whether mode A, C or S are 'bearingless', because they contain no position location information (except altitude in mode C or S), which is why it takes a very expensive ground radar system or 100K commercial TCAS to work out where they are. Even then, the accuracy of that information is dependent on a number of factors including geography and the density and type of radar stations. What Lee has been trying to do is provide us with warning of the presence of these aircraft by extrapolating from the basic information that transponders provide. In an ideal world, we would like to know the location of all transponder equipped aircraft, but this of course gets much harder the less information the transponder provides, viz Mode S is 'easier' than mode C, which is significantly easier than mode A (which only transmits a squawk code).
It is important to note that, contrary to popular belief, transponders are 'passive' devices, which ONLY transmit in response to a ground radar or TCAS interrogation.
Most recent mode S transponders (the newest and most technically advanced versions of transponder) are capable of being 'adapted' to also work as more precise active ADSB transmitters by providing a suitable gps position input as Alan and Chris describe, but very few have actually been 'converted' principally due to cost, though as Chris says, this is now much cheaper and easier for permit aircraft as cheaper non-certified gps sources (including PAW) can be used to do this.
As you are aware, ADSB then transmits accurate positional data, making it 'relatively' easy to display their position on screen ( if you can do the magic software bit). This therefore is the 'easy bit' hence it is already fully implemented.
Since getting this part working, Lee has done considerable work to develop the programme to provide reliable information for transponder contacts (unreliable information simply discredits the system and leads people to distrust it), whilst at the same time being heavily committed to developing the replacement RF Bridge for PAW's own 'mini' version of ADSB. I and others in the Engineering sub group have been assisting him with the mode S testing and the new Mode S and audio alerts are the result.
Mode S transponders have co-located ADSB transmitter, which periodically transmits ADSB packets which contain data of interest to PAW such as Aircraft code, height and position. ADSB packets can also be transmitted without a Mode S transponder.
Why would PAW need to try and figure the threat distance from a Mode S transponders Bearingless transmission when it can also see it's ADSB packet? Which is why I am puzzled by Keith referring to them in his news update.
Most Mode S transponders do not transmit ADSB for the reasons explained above. If they do, PAW uses the ADSB signal and effectively 'ignores' the mode S one. But there are an awful lot of mode S transponders out there not transmitting ADSB which would otherwise remain invisible.
Ground stations, air traffic etc, obtain positional info from mode S only aircraft via the primary radar.
Not sure that is correct. My understanding is they use ADSB transmission if available, and verify it is bonafide against the Primary return. Otherwise they would not have needed to upgrade the radars?
Not the case Ian - According to reports no UK ATC units currently use ADSB! Scary or what!!
In practice ATC units now use very expensive Secondary Surveillance Radar (SSR) to determine the location of transponder equipped aircraft (search Wikipedia).
Alan/Chris/Steve, Sorry to cross post - it obviously took me a lot longer to type out and check such a complicated reply on a mini iPad! Especially as every time I went to post another one of you had got in before me!!
Best regards
Peter
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Thanks you guys for taking the time to explain this to me. Much of it I already understood, however Steve put his finger on it when he mentioned Basic Mode S, which I had totally forgotten did not include positional data. All the documentation I have bee reading, including some very high brow papers refer to Mode S standard in which ADSB features. No mention of a Basic Mode S anywhere.
I think we can lay that question to rest now. My other question has not been responded to regarding License upgrades should I want to upgrade to a Pi2
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Ian has neatly summarised the debate about ADSB in its various guises - and equally brought us back to my theme of earlier today. Over to a spokesman for the team, please.
Bill
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Hi Guys,
I'm only guessing, but obviously the beta licence is specific to the MAC address, so probably not migrateable (is that a word?). As Keith says in his News post, the B+ units still run with original ADSB functionality and as the whole ethos of see, be seen and avoid relies on the P3i Bridge part, new licences are being sold (once the shop opens - hopefully soon!!) with either full kits or Bridges. In the meantime, I see Lee has provided a link on the Licensing and Downloads page for a 28 Day Demo Licence. I haven't tried it, but this might be the answer to getting your Pi2s going until Bridges are released. Worth a try and please post to let the rest of us know if it works (or not).
Regards
Peter
Did as you suggested Peter and registered by Pi2 MAC address for a demo license. All went smoothly but it appears the demo is a 7 day, rather than 28 day as the website says. The 192.168.1.1 homepage now says 'PilotAware Version(20160502) License Expires(20160513)' after I enter my new licience code.
Anyhow took it flying this afternoon from Netherthorpe and it functioned as expected, detecting the airliners way above me. Didn't encounter any bearingless Mode-S targets, despite spotting a few other GA aeroplanes out and about. Hopefully the demo license is longer than a week, that doesn't give long for folk to get is set up, book an aeroplane and go fly it a few times.
How much more power is the new PilotAware Classic going to draw? With my old Pi1 the PortaPow battery pack seemed to last for ever, I'm not certain it was fully charged today but running the Pi2 it was out of juice by 5PM, and that was in ADS-B configuration, without it powering a bridge. Might be time to think about a bigger battery for it.
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Hi Gareth
Did as you suggested Peter and registered by Pi2 MAC address for a demo license. All went smoothly but it appears the demo is a 7 day, rather than 28 day as the website says. The 192.168.1.1 homepage now says 'PilotAware Version(20160502) License Expires(20160513)' after I enter my new licience code.
Thats a mistake, I will take a look
Anyhow took it flying this afternoon from Netherthorpe and it functioned as expected, detecting the airliners way above me. Didn't encounter any bearingless Mode-S targets, despite spotting a few other GA aeroplanes out and about. Hopefully the demo license is longer than a week, that doesn't give long for folk to get is set up, book an aeroplane and go fly it a few times.
Mode S detection, is disabled by default, did you enable this under the 'configure' menu ?
How much more power is the new PilotAware Classic going to draw? With my old Pi1 the PortaPow battery pack seemed to last for ever, I'm not certain it was fully charged today but running the Pi2 it was out of juice by 5PM, and that was in ADS-B configuration, without it powering a bridge. Might be time to think about a bigger battery for it.
Very little difference, depends upon activity, but typically less than 1.0A
Thx
Lee
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Thanks Lee - In my haste to take it flying I'd missed that configuration setting for Mode S detection on page 2! Now enabled. Good to hear its not significantly more power hungry, I'll recharge my battery pack and see what results I get. Looking forward to getting a 28 day demo licence and giving it another go :)
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Hi Gareth,
Glad to hear the Demo Licence option worked, if only for 7 days. I'm sure Lee will sort it.
Just in case you don't know, Mode S contacts are indicated on screen (SkyDemon) by a small white aircraft symbol piggybacked on top of your aircraft and showing a relative altitude above or below you. Obviously, the nearer the contact is to your altitude the higher the potential risk. If this is the case look for the aircraft outside, not on the screen. The Pi2 also outputs audio which can be fed into your intercom, though the method depends on your system. ADSB alerts follow the format 'Traffic, 'X o'clock, level, y kilometres'. Mode S alerts will be of the form 'Traffic Notice', Traffic Alert', and finally 'Traffic Danger' as the contact gets closer, though it obviously may not do so e.g. if it is passing across or parallel to you, or if it comes close and then moves away. You'll soon get the hang of it.
Regards
Peter
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Thanks Peter, that's useful information, I'll have to investigate how to get the audio output wired into the headsets.
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Hi Peter
Can the audio alert be configured by the user? I would prefer consistent use of the same measuring system rather than mixing them, i.e "Traffic, X o'clock, level in feet, distance in miles"
Bill
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Morning All
Agree in keeping to standard aviation units all round
Cheers
John
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Wot the previous two posters said.
Standardisation is all.
Al
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Hi Bill / John / Alan,
Units are fixed. I don't know why Lee has used kilometers to show distance - this may be a feature of the original source information.
Bearing in mind that ADSB equipped aircraft can appear 'on screen' from up to 100 miles/km out or more, audio warnings for ADSB aircraft are only given for traffic which is 'Level' - i.e. at or near your own altitude, 'Above' or 'Below' at a point where the aircraft is near enough to be a potential hazard, but far enough out to give sufficient warning to see and avoid. No specific altitude is given in the audio warning, merely the term 'Level', 'Above' or 'Below', but the relative altitude displayed on screen is given in feet above or below your aircraft.
In practice as the audio alert is only bringing the presence of aircraft already visible on screen to your attention, I haven't found the units a problem in testing, though I must say I did wonder (but didn't ask) as I would also normally use 'miles'.
The Mode 'S' warnings simply state 'Traffic Notice'...'Traffic Alert'... and 'Traffic Danger'... in order, based on received transponder signal strength from predetermined triggers as a mode 'S' aircraft approaches. No distance is given, because it's not accurately known. Again, relative altitude (+ or - to your own) is displayed in feet next to the piggybacked 'Mode S Aircraft' symbol which appears on top of your own aircraft.
The relative altitude information helps identify whether you need to look up, down or otherwise to see the other aircraft and helps identify whether you might need to climb or descend to avoid conflict. As the pilot, however, it's of course up to you to interpret the information, identify the traffic (in the case of a Mode 'S' 'Traffic Notice...', if you can't see it after a thorough 360 degree check it's probably a high powered CAT transponder too far out to be a problem) and take any action necessary to avoid.
Hope this helps.
I'm sure Lee will come back to us to clarify why kilometers are used.
p.s. Post updated in response to Lee's later post (below) to avoid potential confusion
Regards
Peter
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Hi Peter
Thanks, I am old enough to be pretty ambidextrous with units (groats, chains, perches etc. are a bit of a problem to convert in my aged brain?). But ATC (ICAO) and all do give separation distance in miles (Nautical).
No problem, looking forward to buying devices and bits.
Cheers
John
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Hi all
Just to clarify the adsb messages, the term 'level' is used when the traffic is within +/- 30 degrees from dead ahead, you will also get messages 'above' or 'below', when outside this range
Regarding the units, this will be made configurable in a later release, this was an initial stab. The only reason for choosing kms was the internal representation
Please remember to use the enhancement request topic as well, I do go back and sweep the postings for future ideas
Keep 'em coming ...
Thx
Lee
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As I have a PAW which appears to be working I have not been reading this thread but in an effort to keep up I have just reviewed it and am very pleased to hear about an audio output to alert you to a threat.
Do I have to download the software again onto my SD card and go through the licence request process again ?
Would be pleased get some advice.
John
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You will need to have the latest software, but also a Raspberry Pi2B. It also looks as if you will need to buy a new license, but the team have not responded to that question yet.
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Oh that's a shame it is only on a different bit of hardware. I wonder why, perhaps speech is too mem or processor hungry, but "shirley" we could have a simple chime output on the audio built into the standard Pi to at least make us be more alert to a potential threat.
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Hi Lee,
I'm not sure that I understand your definition of "Level" being within +-30deg of straight ahead. Are you talking in azimuth i.e. From 11 o clock to 1 o clock, or +- 30 deg in elevation, or a combination (like a cone)? What about ads-b returns from other directions at or very close to your own altitude?
Thx,
Chris
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Hi Lee,
I'm not sure that I understand your definition of "Level" being within +-30deg of straight ahead. Are you talking in azimuth i.e. From 11 o clock to 1 o clock, or +- 30 deg in elevation, or a combination (like a cone)? What about ads-b returns from other directions at or very close to your own altitude?
Thx,
Chris
Hi Chris,
If only you knew the internal debates we have had on this :o
so the message format is the following in programming terms we call this BNF !
traffic x'oclock, <above|level|below>, y kms
where x = 1 - 12
where y = 0 - 10
where level means looking up or down within 30 degrees up, or 30 degrees down
where above means greater than 30 degrees up
where below means greater than 30 degrees down
I am open to alternatives, I discussed with others giving the angles in 10 degree separation,
but we decided that was to complicated.
The goal is to get you to look at the right area of the sky with simple communication, rather
than overload your brain trying to think what 10 degrees looks like!
comments welcome
Thx
Lee
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I have a concern about just saying "level". Might be mistaken for 'the intruder is flying level'. "same level" could be the PAW way perhaps? "same altitude" is what the Avidyne use. That is for an intruder at +-200ft.
Their POH (http://www.avidyne.com/files/downloads/600%2D00145%2D000%5F1%2Epdf) makes for good bedtime reading regarding concepts behind traffic alerting generally.
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Hi Lee,
Thanks for clarification, all is clear to me now. My confusion stemmed from your use of the phrase "dead ahead" as though you were only warning of traffic within +- 30 deg azimuth of the direction my aircraft is travelling. I now see that you are basing the azimuth angle for detection on the clock dial after all, which I imagine will be preferable to a majority of users. The term "Level" is also fine, indicating both aircraft are at similar height. "Same Level" as SteveN proposes, might be a tad more concise.
Thx again,
Chris
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Just a thought - can we have a new folder added to the website dedicated solely to the new PAW Classic?
Although I read all the posts on the PAW website, for a newbie, it can be quiet confusing as to what exactly one will get when purchasing a ready made and ready to go PAW Classic.
For example:
1. Will it work straight out of the box and integrate with SD running on my smartphone?
2. What are the licensing arrangements and annual costs?
etc. etc.
Tony nowak
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Hi Tony,
There is a datasheet being prepared with all the necessary data, so hopefully that will address your query
Thx
Lee
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When a product is superseded it often gets the moniker 'Classic'. Are we in this incidence using for the new Pi2B product, which is a tad confusing.
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I also thought that the title "classic" was slightly confusing as usually that would refer to the original version/model.
Tony Nowak
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Bear in mind that the 'Classic' is the first 'production' model for those who haven't ventured into PAW before. 🙂
Peter
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I'm going to upgrade my Pi B+, but finding the Pi2 difficult to source. Is the Pi3 an option?
The Pi3 has the possible (future) use of built in WIFI and Bluetooth for connection to external GPS mouse without the need for 3rd party dongles hanging out the back?
From the Pi site The Raspberry Pi 3 has an identical form factor to the previous Pi 2 (and Pi 1 Model B+) and has complete compatibility with Raspberry Pi 1 and 2.
AtB
Deker
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Hi Deker
Please do not try the Pi3, my understanding is that it does not work.
I think the bootloader may have changed.
Aviation Hardware and Technology Ltd have sufficient stock of RPi2 for the full system plus Bridge which will be on sale shortly
Thx
Lee
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No problem in sourcing a Pi2B from Amazon or Curry's a couple of days ago.
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Bear in mind that the 'Classic' is the first 'production' model for those who haven't ventured into PAW before. 🙂
Peter
In which case why not call it Pilot Aware ;-)
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I took delivery of a Pi 2B last Saturday, from Amazon.
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There were some questions earlier in the thread, and on the flyer forum regarding the features and interfaces for PilotAware Classic.
Please find an initial datasheet here, giving a brief outline of what PilotAware Classic consists
PilotAware Classic Datasheet (http://www.pilotaware.com/app/download/9805601/PilotAware-Classic-DS.pdf)
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May be a possible typo in datasheet?
RS232 GPS output to a Dynon transponder should I think instead state Skview traffic display via RS232 output (FLARM data). I use the Dynon menu option on PAW to see traffic on my Skyview.
The Dynon transponder uses a Skyview connection (using it's GPS-250) or Dynon's GPS-2020 Certified GPS for ADS-B position.
That said, the Dynon transponder is really TRIG underneath so PAW will probably drive it.
My Skyview does not have a Dynon transponder to test this I'm afraid but the chances of anyone using PAW for a Dynon transponder is slight.
Steve
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Hi Steve,
Thanks for spotting that, it should have been listed under Navigation RS-232
corrected
Thx
Lee
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Hi Deker
Please do not try the Pi3, my understanding is that it does not work.
I think the bootloader may have changed.
Thx
Lee
Thanks Lee,
I've just ordered the full kit from 'you guys' in support of all your hard work - wish you every success.
ATB Deker
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The Pi 3 gets HOT!! and would need a heat sink and probably a new case were it adopted at some point.
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I may have missed something but what is the situation for those of us who built ADSB only units? Do we just buy the new Bridge? Does this come with an antenna or does this need sourcing elsewhere? Great work Lee and team!
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Shirly we need a Pi2B - dont we . Everything else is the same.
Would be pleased to get a yes before ordering it though.
Hopefully this gives the audio alerts and the Mode S (vanilla) display on RunwayHD.
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Shirly we need a Pi2B - dont we . Everything else is the same.
Would be pleased to get a yes before ordering it though.
Hopefully this gives the audio alerts and the Mode S (vanilla) display on RunwayHD.
Hi John,
The existing PiB+ will give exactly the same functionality you have been using during the Beta trial, you will not lose anything by contimuing with the PiB+
Mode-S and Audio will only work on the Pi2B (for reasons stated elsewhere)
I would add one small word of caution here regarding Mode-S, I still consider this as Beta phase, and this is because it still needs some algorithmic tuning. What I do not want is for the Mode-S to give excessive and un-important alerts, which end up being annoying and ultimately ignored, and this is still some work in progress
The Audio alerts work well, and these will trigger from ADS-B / P3I / Mode-S traffic sources
If you are trading in an ARF, you have the choice to trade in against :-
1. PilotAware Bridge (to be used with your existing PilotAware System + extended Beta License)
2. PilotAware Full Kit (which includes Pi2B + 1st Year License)
I think all the pricing is outlined here:-
http://forum.pilotaware.com/index.php/topic,372.0.html
I hope this all makes sense.
Thx
Lee
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Thanks Lee - just to summarise.
If I buy a Pi2B and connect it all up , just as my older Pi and put the latest software onto the SD card then I will get audio alerts out of the audio socket on the Pi.
I dont want to trade anything in, just buy the newer Pi from RS or Farnell or whoever.
Thanks
John
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Thanks Lee - just to summarise.
If I buy a Pi2B and connect it all up , just as my older Pi and put the latest software onto the SD card then I will get audio alerts out of the audio socket on the Pi.
I dont want to trade anything in, just buy the newer Pi from RS or Farnell or whoever.
Hi John,
The license key, is tightly coupled to the hardware which was used for registration, this is the one you used during the beta trial.
So for every new hardware installation you create, you will need a new software license.
I presume you would be looking to buy an RF Bridge ?
My understanding is that once the ARF trade-ins have been satisfied then RF Bridges will be available with or without software licenses
(I may need to come back and clarify how this will be handled)
Thx
Lee
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Looks like you sold out of kits. I make that about 6 hours since Lee's Flyer Post lunchtime.
Well done PAW team :)
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Lots more to come :D
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We have all received I guess the latest email about the new hardware release. It seems though that all are sold out instantly.
On top of this there is confusion on what exactly is required.
Last December I purchased all the elements required to build a PAW without the ARF as it was advised it was not satisfactory to do this and just go for ADS-B. This assembled all worked fine and advice was to wait until the new ARF Bridge Unit is available. Well apparently it is available (but not in stock on the hardware site) and all we have to do is request an email when it is in stock. I have done this a few times over the last month or so and don't get emailed and on the day it is announced available it is NOT. This is madness, please someone state clearly what the situation is.
To make matters even more confusing my system was built on a PiB+ as per advice on hardware. Now it seems that I need a Pi2B, which I do actually have which would then provide all the functions. I don't have an ARF to return as advise was not to purchase.
And then to confuse me even more there is dialogue about a License number, I do have one but am not sure what relevance it is if I eventually get a Bridge and then connect up all my existing bits to the new Pi2B.
Somebody for heavens sake who is not so wrapped up in tech speak spell this all out simply. I cannot believe I am the only one who is becoming more and more confused.
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Please bear with us, we are working very hard to streamline the process.
With the launch today it has all been a bit hectic, but we are trying to smooth the paths and remove any confusion, more guidance will be forthcoming.
Thx
Lee
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It would also be useful to indicate a current source for the PI2B. I've checked the RS-Components web site where I got my PI B+ and they show out of stock with an expected delivery of August 26, 2016 !!
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Hi
The full kit from pilotawarehardware.com includes a Pi2B
Also remember, PilotAware continues to run on your PiB+ as it did before
Thx
Lee
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Pi2B in stock at Amazon.
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As this thread seems to have departed from the question first asked I think this might be an appropriate time to ask something about the discount for folk like me who had early licences and are computer biffs. In the information to be supplied when applying for the discount, Beta license MAC address is requested. Is that my licence number(s) which begin B827..... or something else? If something else, how do I find it (them)?
Oh, GOOD JOB Lee and the Team!
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I can't recall - is the MAC address required the MAC address of the WIFI dongle or the LAN on the Pi itself?
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As this thread seems to have departed from the question first asked I think this might be an appropriate time to ask something about the discount for folk like me who had early licences and are computer biffs. In the information to be supplied when applying for the discount, Beta license MAC address is requested. Is that my licence number(s) which begin B827..... or something else? If something else, how do I find it (them)?
Oh, GOOD JOB Lee and the Team!
Hi
Hopefully this explains how to get the Production S/W and your 1 Year Key (for Beta Trialists)
http://forum.pilotaware.com/index.php/topic,156.0.html
If there is anything missing, please let me know and I will update the instructions
Thx
Lee
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We have all received I guess the latest email about the new hardware release. It seems though that all are sold out instantly.
On top of this there is confusion on what exactly is required.
Last December I purchased all the elements required to build a PAW without the ARF as it was advised it was not satisfactory to do this and just go for ADS-B. This assembled all worked fine and advice was to wait until the new ARF Bridge Unit is available. Well apparently it is available (but not in stock on the hardware site) and all we have to do is request an email when it is in stock. I have done this a few times over the last month or so and don't get emailed and on the day it is announced available it is NOT. This is madness, please someone state clearly what the situation is.
To make matters even more confusing my system was built on a PiB+ as per advice on hardware. Now it seems that I need a Pi2B, which I do actually have which would then provide all the functions. I don't have an ARF to return as advise was not to purchase.
And then to confuse me even more there is dialogue about a License number, I do have one but am not sure what relevance it is if I eventually get a Bridge and then connect up all my existing bits to the new Pi2B.
Somebody for heavens sake who is not so wrapped up in tech speak spell this all out simply. I cannot believe I am the only one who is becoming more and more confused.
Let me firstly apologise to you and those who are genuinely confused and secondly provide this explanation of the journey that we have all been undertaking over the past year to provide the answers to the confusion. It is a very dry bullet point summary but I hope it does help. If you know most of it apologies again but some don’t so they can pick up the thread.
• In the Summer of 2013 Lee Moore starts the development of what is now called PilotAware
• In 2015 PilotAware was offered to a wider audience than the small group of testers who had been working on PilotAware for the previous 12 months.
• This was, as is normal in software and hardware development, called the beta trial.
• In this trial, participants were given an insight into the open nature of the project and invited, if they were so inclined to build a unit for themselves by collecting a variety of disparate parts together and building them at home. Caveat emptor, order of the day.
• The software was updated regularly, often daily, involving a tedious reformat of the disk each and every time. Twenty minutes of your life you would not get back.
• The PilotAware Forum was then formed where ideas, mainly technical were discussed.
• In September 2015 a Barometer chip was added for accuracy and manual QNH input on each trip was now redundant.
• In early October 2015, thanks to the help of Ian Fallon, a list of ‘known good hardware’ was published to reconfirm what the specification of the bits were and where to get them. PilotAware was developed solely for the Raspberry Pi B+.
• In October the availability of the ARF, always spasmodic, became very spasmodic. PilotAware met with the manufacturers of the ARF and we were not convinced of either their, or its long term suitability for the project.
• In October the core testing team undertook extensive air to air and air to ground testing using the ARF. Whilst giving a better range than some other conspicuity systems it was not spectacular nor repeatable across the various home built systems, and various aircraft types.
• It was therefore decided that the ARF was not future proof and on 15th October 2015 we instructed that this should not be used further and that new PilotAware units should be built as ADSB receivers only until and alternative was found. This is known as the PilotAware State of the Nation Address. http://forum.pilotaware.com/index.php/topic,150.msg2174.html#msg2174
• In this latest news item, it was also recommended that all users fit a GPS and that we were also looking for an ARF replacement and also investigating opening up a web shop to make it easier for people who didn’t want to make their own units on the kitchen table.
• In November 2015 Both android and iOS tablets were supported.
• PilotAware Ltd also decided to invest in the development of a bespoke replacement for the ARF and produces a specification including the requirement for it to meet the European Telecommunications Standards Institute (ETSI) standard for this type of equipment.
• PilotAware Ltd engaged with Aviation Technology and Hardware (ATH) to develop and produce the certified radio module, design a plug in board, integrating the barometer voltage converters and other peripheral electronics as a stand alone Bridge.
• AHT agrees to provide a fulfilment service for complete PilotAware units, Bridges and peripherals using the URL pilotawarehardware.com.
• At the Flyer show we confirm that ATH will make ready built units available at the introductory price of £139.99. plus vat to include the first year licence at £15 plus vat with a license of £12 plus vat per year thereafter.
• In addition, it announced that whilst the failure of the ARF was not a PilotAware Ltd issue it would in good faith provide a discount against the new radio units, for beta trialists who bought, installed, used and registered ARF’s before the State of the Nation Address on October 15 2015.
• From December 2015 The Bridge was developed, bench tested, parametrically tested, range tested, flight tested several times over a 3 month period. Then submitted for approval testing. It failed. Further development and testing was undertaken and it passed.
• It was recommended that all units be fitted with a Glonass GPS and the Collision Aware app that gained access to the GPS on a tablet was withdrawn.
• Funding was sought to complete the development, set up the manufacturing and testing process and to buy up front, raw materials, finished goods and consumables.
• Over the Winter 2015-16 Lee Moore continues to develop PilotAware functionality. Two developments stood out as highly desirable, voice alerts and Mode S detection, both fairly difficult and not in the original roadmap.
• April 2015 PilotAware Ltd agrees to further reward beta trialists by offering to extend their existing licenses for a full year to 1st May 2017 free of charge. This complimentary license continues to give the original functionality available on the Raspberry PiB+ in preparation for the availability of the PilotAware Bridge after volume manufacture and further parametric and range testing.
• PilotAware decides to bring forward the newly developed functions and offer them in the fully built units to be available in May as PilotAware Classic.
• This new functionality requires additional computing power and requires an upgrade in processor to the Raspberry Pi 2B. This processor is therefore included in the new complete unit called the PilotAware Classic. The new functionality, glonass GPS, improved antenna and more expensive processor increased the introductory price to 159.99 plus vat.
• Existing customers operating on the complimentary 1 year licence now have the choice of keeping it as an ADSB only unit, buying a Bridge (no additional licence required) and using this on their Raspberry PiB+ processor. This will give them the original functionality plus automatic software upgrades. The cost of the Bridge without license is £69.99 ex vat
• If existing customers want to gain access to the new functionality, Voice Alerts and Mode S detection they they need to upgrade to a Raspberry Pi 2B and buy the Bridge plus the upgraded Licence and an antenna. The cost of the Bridge and a first year licence is £84.99 ex vat. They also have the option to buy a PilotAware Classic ready to go.
• For beta trialists who qualify for the ARF discount the above 2 options are open to them but in addition they can apply for a promotion code which will give a £33.33 discount off the pre vat price of the Bridge. This discount can also be redeemed off the price of a complete PilotAware Classic Unit giving a third option. Details of how to apply are found at http://forum.pilotaware.com/index.php/topic,372.msg5052.html#msg5052
• The latest software will detect which version of Pi on which it is installed and enable the functionality accordingly. Why is this the case? Please see the explanation here .
• ATH (pilotawarehardware.com) released the hardware as soon as possible with 50 complete PilotAware Classics and 50 shields released for sale on 11th May 2016 after sending out emails through an automatic server to those who requested them.
• A further 400 Bridges will be available very soon for purchase as either complete PilotAware Classic units or Bridges.
• A forward ordering facility has been added to the website for PilotAware Classic units.
• Further sales items will be added for the standalone Bridges and peripherals.
Sorry that this has been a long list but hopefully it answers your questions.
Keith
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Thank you Keith I think I see what you are saying.
In summary if you were a beta licence holder you can upgrade you licence to allow the new software on a Pi B+ and this will function with, or without, the new bridge until May 17.
The two new features of Audio and Mode S detection will not function on the Pi B+ and the extended beta licence will not be transferable to a Pi 2B should I already have the hardware.
When will the old licences based on the Wifi be added to the database please as I submitted an email to your support email last night and have just tried again to obtain an upgraded beta licence but I get an error message that the licence codes I entered are not associated with the email address I entered.
Regards
Alan Burrill
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When will the old licences based on the Wifi be added to the database please as I submitted an email to your support email last night and have just tried again to obtain an upgraded beta licence but I get an error message that the licence codes I entered are not associated with the email address I entered.
Hi Alan
Apologies on this I have not seen an email,
could you please re-send and good idea to send me a PM as well and I will sort this out
Thx
Lee
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Thanks Lee. Email sent.
Alan
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The two new features of Audio and Mode S detection will not function on the Pi B+ and the extended beta licence will not be transferable to a Pi 2B should I already have the hardware.
Sounds a bit of a raw deal for those of us buying new Pi2 hardware, that supported and made suggestions for enhancements, to now be denied their use, just because we have bought a new Pi. Perhaps we are of no more use as testers esp of the of the Mode S (no e.s) and audio warning enhancements.
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Hi Folks.
Just thought I'd show you a screen shot taken from my Dynon SkyView with the PiB+ and ADSB only reception working like a charm. I had to set the comm port on the Pi and Dynon to 57600 otherwise the FLARM message processing kept failing. Once I made the change it was stable.
I've just ordered my Pi2B, so I'll hope to see Mode-S traffic too soon.
Keep up the brilliant work guys.
Regards
Carl
G-URMS
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Are the "diamonds" conflicting aircraft? Looks to be busy airspace.
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The black diamond are not a threat.
Proximity advisories are clear diamonds (i.e. no black in the centre)
Yellow Traffic Advisory targets contain a number within them that represents how far away they are.
When a Traffic Advisory target is present, a yellow Traffic Alert Message appears on the PFD Page near the top and you get an audible message.
They're also displayed on the map view. See the attached screen shot.