PilotAware

British Forum => Technical Support => Topic started by: Whiskey Kilo Wanderer on October 22, 2016, 08:02:21 pm

Title: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Whiskey Kilo Wanderer on October 22, 2016, 08:02:21 pm
Hi Folks,

I'm not sure if I've done something nasty to my PAW while trying to get it to fire NMEA GPS data (for ADS-B) in to a newly acquired Trig TT21, but it seems to have gone in to a sulk.

The red and green lights are on continuously, no WiFi detected from the unit, no flashing light on the GPS Dongle.

I've tried different power leads and power supplies. The spare PAW works in the same configuration. I've opened the unit up and checked for anything loose, but as far as I can see it's all OK, it just doesn't work....

Is it dead? Do I need to repair it with a new one?


Question No. 2 (well, trying to get money's worth while I'm here)

Is there any setting in the PAW for sending NMEA position data to a transponder (Trig TT21 in my case). The lights on the Farnell USB > RS232 cable flash initially, but then nothing. The TT21 then complains about no data.


All help gratefully received.

Safe Flying,
Richard W.

Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Ian Melville on October 23, 2016, 06:09:43 am
Q2 first, yes there are some settings, but that is a bit academic if it wont work. On the PAW config page there are setting to tell the USB ports what they should be doing and at what speed. Not sure if the TT21 also needs setting up? I think there are some threads about that.

Q2 Remove al devices from the USB except the P3i antenna and the WiFi Dongle. Does that boot and are you able to connect to it? If not swap the SD cards between the two PAW and try again. What happens?
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Whiskey Kilo Wanderer on October 23, 2016, 08:10:30 am
Hi Ian,

Many thanks for the reply.

Tests on PAW:

1. Remove al devices from the USB except the P3i antenna and the WiFi Dongle. Red and Green lights on, no other activity, nothing seen on WiFi.

2. If not swap the SD cards between the two PAW  Changed SD cards over, again nothing happened, Red and Green lights on steady, nothing on WiFi.


NMEA comms between PAW and Trig TT21

The TT21 will accept NMEA at either 4800 or 9600 baud. I've tried both PAW units. Obviously the ‘dead’ one doesn't do anything, the other one flashes the lights on the Farnell USB > RS232 cable but once what appears to be the boot process is complete the lights don’t flash. The TT21 gives a warning message and the test screen shows no NMEA position data.

Thanks for your help.

Safe Flying,
Richard W.
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Whiskey Kilo Wanderer on October 23, 2016, 08:28:27 am
Hi Ian,

Many thanks for the pointer to the settings on the Configure page.

I think I might have found the problem, as the setting for USB Port 4 was Auto. I'm assuming that Port 4 is the one that is used for NMEA Data out to the transponder. Looking at that box there is the option for Trig. I’ll try that later today when I head up to the airfield.

I noticed when testing yesterday that the TRX (RXTX) packet counter was increasing on TX, with obviously nothing on the RX count and no fails on the CRCFAIL counter.

Cheers,
Richard W.
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Ian Melville on October 23, 2016, 12:06:28 pm
Half way to getting you sorted then :-)

With the PAW. That is not getting wifi, do you have a HDMI. Cable that you can connect to a monitor?

You could also try removing the WiFi dongle and connect using a LAN lead to your PC. Depending on your home router config, you may need to do a few extra steps so that the router does not clash with the PAW by using the same IP address. Details of this are somewhere else on the forum.

Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Whiskey Kilo Wanderer on October 23, 2016, 03:24:52 pm
Sadly my wizard wheeze didn't work. No NMEA data being received by the Trig. Does anyone know if the lights on the Farnell USB > RS232 cable should flash when it's working? I did just check the plug on the transponder to ensure I'd got those wires correct - they seem to be. At least the spare is working, as Ridders can confirm, sadly not with ADS-B.

When I get home I'll try the various monitor options, as well as swapping over WiFi dongles.
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Ian Melville on October 23, 2016, 04:44:52 pm
Yes they should flash Red. If it is the same cable as I have then Black(GND) and Orange (TXD) and should go to Pins 6 (GND) and 5(GPS Position In) respectively on the 25 Pin plug.

Having two of these leads and enough other bits and bobs, I was able to use terminal software on a PC to monitor the messages.
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Whiskey Kilo Wanderer on October 23, 2016, 07:47:10 pm
Hi Ian,

Thanks for the Info.

Sadly I don’t have a monitor these days, having been on Notebooks and Tablets for a while now. I’ve tried swapping the WiFi Dongles, but it just sits there with its unblinking red and green lights, not talking to anyone.

I tried plugging the LAN cable in (which had worked previously for a software upgrade), but still the unblinking lights…

Do I just get a new board from Maplin, or isn't it that simple?


ADS-B connection (from the PAW that still works)

Black(GND) and Orange (TXD) and should go to Pins 6 (GND) and 5(GPS Position In) respectively on the 25 Pin plug.

Ah, interesting. I’ve got the Orange wire going to Pin 5 and the black wire to Pin 4, as per the Trig TT21 installation manual. To be honest there are two versions of the Basic Interconnect Diagram. The paper one I have in the manual that came with the transponder shows the ADS-B RS232 input to Pin 5 and the ground to Pin 4. It does show Pins 1, 6 and 14 all connected to ground. This manual is dated 2009.

The latest PDF down load of the TT21 Installation Manual (dated 2015) still shows the ADS-B Input connected to Pin 4 (Ground) and Pin 5 (GPS Input), but uses Pins 6 (Ground) and 7 (TIS Output) for the optional Traffic Display for TIS connection. Pins 1 and 14 are still connected to Ground.

If you have had success with GND (Black) Pin 6 and GPS In (Orange) Pin 5 I may just try that out. I guess your TT21 is an earlier one.

I may give my new best friends at Trig another call, I'm on first name terms and they must be heartily sick of me by now…

Thanks for the assistance.

Safe Flying,
Richard W.
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Admin on October 23, 2016, 08:07:18 pm
Richard
Please check the Micro SD card is seated correctly

Thx lee
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Whiskey Kilo Wanderer on October 23, 2016, 08:30:03 pm
Hi Lee,

I've tried that a few times and again just now. Sadly it's still the dreaded unblinking red and green lights...

Thanks for the assistance.

Safe Flying,
Richard W.
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Ian Melville on October 23, 2016, 08:33:11 pm
Hi Richrd, it should not matter which earth, and I would stick with Trigs pin 4 to avoid confusion. I don't have a Trig, or any other transponder for that matter, but know you need black ground and orange TXD.
I've been working on  data into a PAW rather than out, hence have the kit

Has your telly got a HDMI input? Just a big monitor if you have a HDMI to HDMI lead.
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Whiskey Kilo Wanderer on October 23, 2016, 09:44:17 pm
Hi Ian,

Sorry, I don't have a HDMI cable, or a telly for that matter. Many years of working offshore worldwide lead to a minimalist approach to home entertainment....

Thinking about the ADS-B / NMEA data out to the transponder, with the 25 way D type connector disconnected from the transponder, would the PAW try and send data and hence flash the light in the USB end of the cable?  The other thought was if one of the flow control signals RTS / CTS floated up ( the wires are not connected) would that stop the transmission?

Admittedly this is all guessing in the dark and perhaps I've killed off the USB > RS232 cable with the same efficiency I killed off the PAW…

Thanks for the assistance.

Safe Flying,
Richard W.
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Ian Melville on October 23, 2016, 10:41:44 pm
I sometimes wonder why I have a telly as well.

With the cable disconnected the red LED should still flash at 1 sec interval. just tried it on mine. There is no flow control, it just blind sends the messages.

Have you set the correct USB Port to Trig?

It's a bit difficult to test an RS232 with only one adaptor. I can plug it into a USB port my Windows 10 PC. then using an application like Hype! Terminal (https://sourceforge.net/projects/hypeterminal/) I can send any text to that com port and see the red LED flash briefly, to see that it sent something. There are MAC OS equivalents, but I will plead the 5th on which one to use.
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Whiskey Kilo Wanderer on October 23, 2016, 11:16:42 pm
Hi Ian,

I’d made the rash assumption that the Trig / NMEA Out was Port 4. This was based on the Quick Start Guide, which seemed to indicate that:
Port 1 was the RTL-SDR Dongle,
Port 2 was the WiFi Dongle
Port 3 was the GPS Dongle.

I've set the Port 4 on the Configure page to be Transponder Trig at 9600 baud. I've set the transponder to receive NMEA at 9600 baud. I've also tried both at 4800 baud, with equal lack of success.

Setting the trp Log Interface Messages flag shows various NMEA messages being transmitted, although there’s no connector in that port at the moment (because it’s wired in to the Trig transponder and is in the hangar).

I do worry that I've got the wrong Port designation, which would be the easiest solution to the problem.

Thanks for the assistance.

Safe Flying,
Richard W.
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Ian Melville on October 24, 2016, 06:27:33 am
From the full operations manual, any use?

Port 1 Top left USB port (with the Ethernet port to the left).
Port 2 Bottom left USB port (with the Ethernet port to the left).
Port 3 Top right USB port (with the Ethernet port to the left).
Port 4 Bottom right USB port (with the Ethernet port to the left).
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Whiskey Kilo Wanderer on October 24, 2016, 08:37:38 am
Hi Ian,

Many thanks for that, I think that might be the problem. In effect the NMEA out is from Port 1, which is the only Port not used in the basic set-up.

I'm surprised that changing the setting for Port 4 didn't stop the WiFi, which is plugged in to that Port. Does the software of the Raspberry Pi over ride any manual settings?

Just to make sure I've got this right:

Port 1 – Not used in basic set-up – Now used for position data to transponder.
Port 2 – RTL-SDR Dongle
Port 3 – GPS Dongle
Port 4 – WiFi Dongle

Physical layout:
Port 1 – Not used in basic set-up   Port 3 – GPS Dongle
Port 2 – RTL-SDR Dongle                Port 4 – WiFi Dongle

Worth a trip up to the airfield later today to try it out.

Thanks again for the assistance.

Safe Flying,
Richard W.

Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Admin on October 24, 2016, 10:28:21 am
Hi Richard,

The port selection only affects serial devices.
the WiFi, and SDR are not serial devices, and the GPS is a 'special' serial device.

For the above we can detect what the purpose of the device is by its identification

For general serial devices, there is no way of knowing their purpose, hence the selection

Thx
Lee
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Whiskey Kilo Wanderer on October 24, 2016, 11:13:41 am
Hi Lee,

Many thanks for that, it does explain some of what I’d observed.

Am I right in thinking that with the Farnell USB > RS232 cable plugged in, the PAW would know that there was a serial device attached, but not what to send? In that case it wouldn't send anything, hence the lack of flashing lights on the cable.


My original PAW still remains resolutely dead, apart from the two unblinking lights that is. Do you have any more ideas about how I can resuscitate it?

Thanks for all the assistance.

Safe Flying,
Richard W.
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Admin on October 24, 2016, 11:26:41 am
Hi Richard,

Quote from: Whiskey Kilo Wanderer on October 24, 2016, 11:13:41 am
Hi Lee,
Many thanks for that, it does explain some of what I’d observed.

Am I right in thinking that with the Farnell USB > RS232 cable plugged in, the PAW would know that there was a serial device attached, but not what to send? In that case it wouldn't send anything, hence the lack of flashing lights on the cable.

Correct. Although you should see that its existance is recognised by looking at the PilotAware home page where the USB devices are listed.
Once you select a Mode/Baud combination for the port, PilotAware will attempt to communicate using the specific selection

Quote
My original PAW still remains resolutely dead, apart from the two unblinking lights that is. Do you have any more ideas about how I can resuscitate it?
Is this a PilotAware Classic (which is under warranty), or a homebuild.
The only way to diagnose if it seems really dead is to connect to an HDMI monitor.

Thx
Lee
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Paul_Sengupta on October 24, 2016, 11:39:00 am
I recently had the steady red and green lights when trying to configure an RP 3 for Stratux. I had a cheap Chinese SD card which I was trying to use. Worked fine in an RP 1 B+ but seemingly not in the RP 3 which wouldn't boot from it. I eventually sacrificed an earlier engineering PAW build on a reputable make SD card and used that, and that worked fine in the RP 3.

I could marginally get the cheap Chinese SD card to work by writing Noobs to it...it would boot up partly but wouldn't access other partitions...I believe the Stratux image already contains partitions hence it not being read. I keep meaning to try various formats and overwrites on that SD card to see if I can figure out what makes it work or not work, but I haven't had the time yet.

So the fact that the SD card from the other working PAW doesn't work maybe doesn't mean entirely that the second Pi is dead. You could perhaps try a new reputable make SD card formatted and written with the PAW software to see if that helps at all.

I don't know how the file systems work between the Pi 1, 2 and 3, but the 3 seemed a lot more sensitive to SD cards than the Pi 1 B+.
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Whiskey Kilo Wanderer on October 24, 2016, 12:04:45 pm
Hi Paul,

I'm using the original SD cards as supplied, the only thing I can think of is that in my misguided bumblings I've managed to inadvertently re-program something at a low level. Swapping cards with the other (working) PAW doesn't cure the problem.

Frustratingly it did work, as you can vouch for at Starlight Day.

Just tried it with a monitor and HDMI cable. All the monitor showed was No Signal.

Safe Flying,
Richard W.
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Whiskey Kilo Wanderer on October 24, 2016, 12:10:45 pm
Hi Lee,

Quote
The only way to diagnose if it seems really dead is to connect to an HDMI monitor
As mentioned to Paul above, I finally found a monitor and hooked it up. Only got No Signal showing on the screen.

Quote
Is this a PilotAware Classic (which is under warranty), or a homebuild.
PilotAware Classic ordered 11th May 2016 order No #337

Thanks for your assistance.

Safe Flying,
Richard W.
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Admin on October 24, 2016, 03:12:02 pm
Hi Richard,

Sounds like you need to contact Dave Styles for a return at pilotawarehardware@gmail.com

Was there anything specific that preceeded the failure of the PI ?

Thx
Lee
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: JCurtis on October 24, 2016, 03:14:58 pm
Have it connected to the display before you power it on, then watch the display when it powers up.  If the Pi is physically working you should get a coloured square appear on the screen before it tries to mount the SD card.

I had SD card corruption recently, it would boot to the point of flashing the wired ethernet lights, the red and green light on the Pi was on but not on the bridge as it wouldn't get that far.  Once plugged into a screen and turned on it was obvious what the problem was. 
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Paul_Sengupta on October 24, 2016, 07:00:58 pm
When I was messing around with mine, I found that if it couldn't read the SD card at all I'd just get a blank screen. If it could read the SD card but couldn't make any sense of it, I got the big multi-coloured square and it would hang there.

I had various depending on how I formatted and what I wrote to the card. And as I said, I had problems even trying a working card from a Pi B+ in a 3. Not sure about a 2. Some worked, some didn't. Older versions of the OS didn't work in the 3 at all. Newer one(s) did. But I don't think that affects the 2. The (up to date) card from the 2 worked in the 3.
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Whiskey Kilo Wanderer on October 24, 2016, 07:35:16 pm
Well Folks – It Works….

The data appears on the display of the Trig TT21 transponder, which according to Trig means that the ADS-B signal is being transmitted.

I checked it out with Farnborough LARS, who seemed to be getting the data. Unfortunately an unrelated audio problem made detailed discussion impossible. I asked Headcorn to have a look on FlightRadar24, but they couldn't see me on there*. I'm not sure if there’s another step in the process to achieve that.

Thanks to everyone for the help. The two main problems were the old software in the TT21 and having the wrong port set up on the Configuration page.

Hopefully there is enough information in the posts above to prevent anyone else having the same problem. If you have a TT21 with old software, the nice people at Trig will update it at no cost.

Thanks again for the help.

Safe Flying,
Richard W.

* Edited to say that for some reason FR24 shows 'WK as a twin engined airliner, rather than a light aircraft. If you see an airliner on FR24 doing 70 knots at 1,500' it's probably me....
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Whiskey Kilo Wanderer on October 24, 2016, 08:09:40 pm
Hi Lee,

Quote
Was there anything specific that preceded the failure of the PI ?

Nothing obvious, although there was quite a bit of changing things around going on while trying to resolve the NMEA out issue. If I've managed to break it by my own cack-handedness I'll cover the repair costs.

I've emailed Dave to find out what he wants sent and where to send it.

Thanks for the assistance.

Safe Flying,
Richard W.
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: DaveStyles on October 26, 2016, 08:42:07 am
Reply sent.
Cheers, Dave.

edit:

Richard, I think you have a typo in your email registered on the forum ?
It has 2 x "n" and gets returned.
I've tried again with 1 "n"
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Whiskey Kilo Wanderer on October 26, 2016, 09:23:38 am
Hi Dave,

E-mail received, many thanks.

I'll send the dead unit off to you today.

Safe Flying,
Richard W.
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Smaragd on October 28, 2016, 09:38:08 pm
I have same problem as WKW - steady red and green lights on powering up. Have tried reloading software onto SD card (Sandisk Ultra 8Gb - reloaded OK) but still just the two steady lights on power-up. Haven't connected to monitor by HDMI cable yet. Mine is a homebuilt with Pi2B.
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Smaragd on October 30, 2016, 07:45:02 pm
I've connected to a monitor with HDMI - nothing. Does this mean I need to replace the Pi2B?
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: JCurtis on October 30, 2016, 07:57:41 pm
Quote from: Smaragd on October 30, 2016, 07:45:02 pm
I've connected to a monitor with HDMI - nothing. Does this mean I need to replace the Pi2B?

Did you power up the Pi with it connected to the monitor?  You should get something I'd have thought, does the monitor report seeing a signal?
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Admin on October 30, 2016, 08:33:26 pm
You should at least get the rainbow splash screen when power is first applied
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Smaragd on October 30, 2016, 09:37:07 pm
No, nothing detected by the monitor.
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Ian Melville on October 31, 2016, 06:44:21 am
Is you monitor switched to the HDMI input, or are you relying on auto detect?
Are there any other inputs connected, is so temporary disconnect.
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Smaragd on October 31, 2016, 10:42:36 am
Monitor is specifically selecting the PAW HDMI input - but nothing seen.
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Admin on October 31, 2016, 11:11:50 am
Sounds like your Raspberry PI is dead.
You should have 12 months Warranty from the supplier, so should be OK for a return

Thx
Lee
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Smaragd on October 31, 2016, 05:20:56 pm
Looks like it. Will have another one to try with the rest of my hardware shortly, then I can pursue warranty if it's clearly the Pi.
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Ian Melville on October 31, 2016, 07:39:52 pm
Smaragd, it  could be a faulty unit, but I can reproduce the symptoms you are getting by removing the SD card. I did the test with absolutely everything disconnected except the HDMI and 5V supply.

Red and green lights come on the instant power is connected and remain steady on.
Nothing whatsoever appears on HDMI screen.

I can see no reference in your posts that you have eliminated the SD as an issue. Have you tried a reformat of the drive as per the Manual software update in the PilotAware Operating Instructions? Has it ever worked?
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Smaragd on October 31, 2016, 07:51:21 pm
Yes it has worked. Hadn't used it for a couple of weeks from when it was last working fine, and hadn't changed any hardware or software, but suddenly faced with the continuous red/green. Have manually reformatted and reloaded the card - still u/s.Interesting that you get the same effect with card out; I'd already opened the case and looked at SD contacts, wiggled and pushed - no different, but I'll focus on the card contacts again.
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Whiskey Kilo Wanderer on October 31, 2016, 08:07:43 pm
Hi Folks,

Latest update from Dave:

Quote
The Pi was melted I'm afraid. I can't tell why, but the power circuit has gone u/s. It didn't get pulled to ground at all straight from a USB did it ? They have over current protection, but the poly fuses don't always make it in before the damage.
(Not our design !)

The bridge was fine.

It all checks out on a new Pi.

I'm not sure why the unit melted, don't think I scared it to death with my flying.... Looking forward to the arrival of the replacement unit. Thanks to Dave for the assistance.

Safe Flying.
Richard W.
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: JCurtis on October 31, 2016, 10:24:54 pm
Quote
The Pi was melted I'm afraid. I can't tell why, but the power circuit has gone u/s. It didn't get pulled to ground at all straight from a USB did it ? They have over current protection, but the poly fuses don't always make it in before the damage.
(Not our design !)

It would be interesting to know if the 3.3v SMPS on the Pi went or the 5v rails downstream from the power socket are dead too.  There isn't much protection on the input, so a reasonable spike on the USB will kill it.  I would expect any decent USB supply to detect any kind of short on it's output and switch the output off, although some just go into a pseudo current limiting mode by rapidly pulsing the output that can really screw things up if you don't intervene.
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Smaragd on November 03, 2016, 10:03:27 pm
Quote from: Smaragd on October 31, 2016, 07:51:21 pm
Yes it has worked. Hadn't used it for a couple of weeks from when it was last working fine, and hadn't changed any hardware or software, but suddenly faced with the continuous red/green. Have manually reformatted and reloaded the card - still u/s.Interesting that you get the same effect with card out; I'd already opened the case and looked at SD contacts, wiggled and pushed - no different, but I'll focus on the card contacts again.
New Pi2B arrived and fitted, lights seem to flash normally, and it's recognised at 192.168.1.1, however presumably to get rid of "Licence expired" I need to get licence key aligned with new Pi2B hardware MAC. Could you please remind me how to do this without paying for a new licence key?
Title: Re: Lights are on, but PAW not at home....
Post by: Admin on November 03, 2016, 10:29:59 pm
Please send me a PM with old and new hostid
Thx
Lee