Author Topic: Odd Mode-C traffic  (Read 9483 times)

tj80

Odd Mode-C traffic
« on: August 22, 2016, 10:14:59 am »
Hi,

I've just updated to the latest release which includes beta Mode-C detection.  I'm sure I'm misunderstanding something, but there are some very odd results showing on the traffic page (see attached).  Perched next to an upstairs window for a couple of minutes just to check it was working, a few things strike me as very strange:

- No hex-id is shown for any mode-c traffic
- No squawk is shown for any mode-c traffic
- One contact with an altitude of 16 feet (or possibly minus 16 feet) is shown!
- One contact with an altitude of over 62,000 feet is shown!

Are these in some way corrupted contacts, hence the lack of hex-id or squawk?  It seems highly unlikely that I am detecting an aircraft at 16 feet from my house in a built-up area, and it seems equally unlikely that there are many aircraft at over 62,000 ft - especially squawking mode-C!

I also noticed the "Noisy" test setting for sensitivity seems to have gone?

Thanks,
Tim

DavidC

Re: Odd Mode-C traffic
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2016, 12:55:55 pm »
I can't comment on the other points, but a key difference between Mode-S and Mode-C is that Mode-S includes a Hex code while Mode-C only has a squawk, so you'd never get a hex code from a Mode-C transponder.

tj80

Re: Odd Mode-C traffic
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2016, 01:15:05 pm »
Doh!  Of course - thanks, David.  I did actually know that, having RTFM!

Still, would expect the squawk and altitude to be accurate since that's all mode-c actually provides.

Cheers,
Tim

Admin

Re: Odd Mode-C traffic
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2016, 03:30:22 pm »
Mode A is a squawk code
Mode C is an altitude code

In a passive system it is impossible to know whether a transponder transmission is the result of a mode A or C interrogation, and in fact they are both simply 4 digit octal codes between 0000 and 7777.

So we treat all responses as an altitude code, then use a lookup to determine if it is a valid or invalid altitude representation.

If it decodes as a ridiculous altitude, no matter because I presume you will set your vertical separation to a reasonable value such as 1000ft ?

Mode A/C is ancient technology really, but we must try and handle everyone's baggage

Thx
Lee
« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 03:32:45 pm by Admin »

tj80

Re: Odd Mode-C traffic
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2016, 03:44:38 pm »
Thanks, Lee, understand now.  As you say, the filter should take out most of these.

Cheers,
Tim

Admin

Re: Odd Mode-C traffic
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2016, 03:47:37 pm »
Quote
Are these in some way corrupted contacts, hence the lack of hex-id or squawk?  It seems highly unlikely that I am detecting an aircraft at 16 feet from my house in a built-up area, and it seems equally unlikely that there are many aircraft at over 62,000 ft - especially squawking mode-C!

Definitely no corruption.
The 62000ft could be a ModeA response rather than C, would need to look at the altitude encoding.

-16ft would depend what your own reported barometric altitude was, remember these are relative numbers. You will also notice all numbers are at an 84 offset, the altitude encoding in mode c is only accurate to 100ft

I think there is a mode c special for zero, I think the code is 0010

Thx
Lee

tj80

Re: Odd Mode-C traffic
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2016, 09:17:07 am »
Thanks, Lee.

Out of interest, how does PAW filter out the aircraft's own transponder if it's mode-c only and therefore doesn't transmit a hex-id?

Thanks,
Tim

Admin

Re: Odd Mode-C traffic
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2016, 10:33:14 am »
Out of interest, how does PAW filter out the aircraft's own transponder if it's mode-c only and therefore doesn't transmit a hex-id?

Good question, and a difficult problem to solve.
If you choose the +FILTER option, this uses a combination of heuristic approaches.
So the filter looks at the strongest signal within 200ft of PAW, and uses a hysterisis type algorithm to ignore.
So lets say we detect a signal at 240 at 100ft, then everythng within 10% of this strength within this altitude range are ignored.

If you look at your traffic screen the filtered mode C value is reprted as SELF

The filter threshold limits decay over time to attempt to tune the filter

Thx
Lee

Moffrestorer

Re: Odd Mode-C traffic
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2016, 08:02:05 pm »
Hi Lee,

I hadn't realised that the four figure squawk code from a Mode C could describe its altitude.  Many years ago I went on a visit to LATCC at West Drayton. I recall that the individual numbers of the squawk code allocated by ATC described the ATC unit, right down to the individual controller's position within the controller's suite. There was no hint that altitude encoding figured within this system.

Regards,

Chris

exfirepro

Re: Odd Mode-C traffic
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2016, 02:42:44 pm »
Hi Chris,

A bit of confusion creeping in here.

All 'Transponders' are passive devices, which only transmit when interrogated - normally by a radar unit or an aircraft TCAS system.

(This is the main significant difference between transponders and ADSB devices - which actively transmit relevant information independently of external interrogation.)

Old 'Mode A' transponders only transmit a squawk code. Although to our eyes this is a 4 figure numeric code, it is actually transmitted 'digitally' as a packet of '1's and '0's, which when received have to be decoded back to the 4 figure number to indicate the allocated Squawk, allowing the ATC operator to determine which of the many 'blips' on his or her radar screen is you.

When transponder technology moved on to 'Mode C', the old 'Mode A' squawk transmissions continued as before, but an altitude code was added to assist the ATC operator by letting him or her know at what altitude the 'blip' is flying. This additional information is ONLY transmitted if you have your transponder set to 'Alt' - which is what the ATC operator refers to when you hear them say to a Mode 'C' (or sometimes Mode 'S') equipped aircraft - 'Squawk (1234....)   '...with Charlie'. When 'Alt' is selected, the aircraft's altitude is transmitted in response to an altitude specific radar interrogation as well as the squawk code, both digitally expressed as packets of '1's and '0's, which need to be decoded at the other end - in our case in our PAW. It is these groups of '1's and '0's which Lee then has to compare with 'known values' to establish whether they relate to a squawk code or an altitude. In our case, without a radar screen, the 'squawk' from a Mode 'A' or 'C' transponder on its own is of very little use as at best all it will tell you is that there is an aircraft about but with no indication of where or of the other aircraft's relative height. Unfortunately, without a 'Hex' code - only provided in Mode 'S'- there is no easy way of grouping squawk and altitude information to represent a single aircraft. When assessed together with PAWs signal strength algorithms, however, the altitude information from Mode 'C' - with Charlie 'on', does allow us to provide meaningful information on the level of danger presented by the unseen 'bearingless' Mode 'C' aircraft.

So in the case of 'Mode C' the altitude information comes from the 'Alt' part of the Mode 'C' transmission, NOT from the squawk code part.

Hope this helps clarify the situation - believe me, although I've tried to keep it simple it is anything but!

Regards

Peter
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 02:57:56 pm by exfirepro »

Paul_Sengupta

Re: Odd Mode-C traffic
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2016, 04:53:23 pm »
I don't think that was the question asked. The question related to how Mode A only squawks could give some strange values of altitude and where that information was coming from.

exfirepro

Re: Odd Mode-C traffic
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2016, 06:54:40 pm »
I don't think that was the question asked. The question related to how Mode A only squawks could give some strange values of altitude and where that information was coming from.

Paul,

My reply was mainly directed to Chris's comment about altitude encoding coming from a four figure squawk code from a Mode-'C' transponder, hence why I tried to explain that squawk codes - whether Mode-'A', Mode-'C', or for that matter Mode-'S' do NOT give altitude information. Apart from ADSB or P3i, altitude information can only be derived from the 'Alt' component of a Mode-'C' or Mode-'S' transmission packet.

WRT Tim's original query, I am pretty certain that the 62,000 ft + 'high altitude' entry comes from a 'fixed' radar range setting beacon, which have been discussed elsewhere on this forum and my guess would be that the -16ft entry is probably derived from a nearby mode S/ADSB aircraft operating in ground radar mode.

To confirm whether this is the case, Tim, you have already said you were on the ground when you took the traffic screen grab. Can I ask whether you were close to a major airport  please ?

Regards

Peter

« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 06:56:47 pm by exfirepro »

tj80

Re: Odd Mode-C traffic
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2016, 07:46:20 pm »

To confirm whether this is the case, Tim, you have already said you were on the ground when you took the traffic screen grab. Can I ask whether you were close to a major airport  please ?

Regards

Peter

Hi Peter,

I'm south of Woking - about 12 miles as the crow flies to Heathrow (10 to Farnborough if you'd call that a "major airport"!)

Cheers,
Tim

exfirepro

Re: Odd Mode-C traffic
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2016, 01:14:26 pm »
Thanks Tim,

In that case my theory is correct. The -16ft contact will be coming from a CAT aircraft on the ground at one or other of the airports - the signal strength is consistent with this - and the 62,000ft + signal will be coming from a 'Radar System Monitor Beacon', provided to allow ATC to check the accuracy of their radar systems.  We have come across these before. They do transmit a specific squawk code to identify them as beacons, though because this one has reported as Mode C, no squawk code has been associated with it. They must transmit a very high 'altitude' code so they don't get confused by other ATC or TCAS units as aircraft. Again the signal strength is consistent with my own local observations.

These shouldn't really be coming up as Mode-'C', I will discuss this with Lee to see if we can establish why this is happening. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

Regards

Peter
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 03:49:15 pm by exfirepro »

Admin

Re: Odd Mode-C traffic
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2016, 02:13:50 pm »
Hi Peter

http://www.airsport-corp.com/modecascii.txt

This cross references mode C squawks to altitude encoding

Thx
Lee