Author Topic: Mode C/S  (Read 25250 times)

tnowak

Re: Mode C/S
« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2015, 02:40:00 pm »
Hi Lee,

I was thinking Mode A and forgetting Mode C! Yes, of course you have altitude information....

I wonder if it will be possible to determine (by in-flight testing) a band of received signal levels that are most likely to indicate a potential close encounter?
For example, is there likely to be much difference in received signal levels between an aircraft transmitting at 1, 2, 5 and 10 miles away? My thinking is that you could ignore Mode C signals until they got to a level typical of, say 2 miles away.

Yes, there will be all the PAW variables you mentioned but perhaps a good starting point to possibly refine upon as more data becomes available?

As all Mode C transponders are built and tested to certified levels (I assume they are?), and most installations use standard transponder antennas, I wonder if there is really a significant difference in transmitted power from different aircraft/installations?

Tony

Paul_Sengupta

Re: Mode C/S
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2015, 03:15:40 pm »
The problems:

1) there are different powers of transponders for commercial and non-commercial
2) every transponder installation will be subject to vagaries of time and corroded connectors, antennae, etc.
3) every receive setup will be different
4) shielding of one antenna from the other will depend on individual aircraft, both on the transmit and receive side, and where they are relative to the sticking out bits

The best we can hope for is an approximation but at least there'll be an alert.

the_top_pilot

Re: Mode C/S
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2015, 05:54:22 pm »
An alert is whats important until everyone has a Pilotaware.

Andy Fell

Re: Mode C/S
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2015, 11:06:27 pm »
The counter argument is that you create too many false alerts, then people will no longer trust it.  At least with PAW and Mode S you know if you get an alert then it's accurate.

The Zaon devices lost credibility pretty fast, for alerting to traffic that wasn't there or vice versa.  So, people don't trust them.  It actually creates MORE pilot workload, because now you have to actually take time to verify the alert, thereby diverting attention from what the pilot should be doing.. BAD! and goes against the ethos of a device that doesn't impair pilot workload and cockpit efficiency.

Wouldn't want PAW to be tarred with the same brush, by giving bad alerts.... the majority of alerts would come from ModeC and would be very unreliable. The PAW system would then very quickly gain a bad reputation.

Needs to be carefully considered, in my opinion :-)

« Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 11:11:55 pm by Wobblewing »

Robski

Re: Mode C/S
« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2015, 08:04:18 am »
As I mentioned in another thread, I sometimes think our efforts may be better spent convincing our fellow Pilots to adopt PilotAware and/or ADS-B (out).
What he said.

Also an affordable, low power ads-b out transmitter (I.e. not a full mode S transponder) would be nice!  ;)
Rob
If the good Lord had intended man to fly He would have given him more money.

SteveN

Re: Mode C/S
« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2015, 09:20:02 am »
Also an affordable, low power ads-b out transmitter (I.e. not a full mode S transponder) would be nice!  ;)

I'm afraid dedicated ADS-B out is only any use if you don't have any sort of transponder.

CAA/NATS will not permit more than one 1090Mhz transmission device in an aircraft.

That us the main driver behind Le'e's P3I initiative of course. :)

exfirepro

Re: Mode C/S
« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2015, 10:28:09 am »

I wonder if it will be possible to determine (by in-flight testing) a band of received signal levels that are most likely to indicate a potential close encounter?
For example, is there likely to be much difference in received signal levels between an aircraft transmitting at 1, 2, 5 and 10 miles away? My thinking is that you could ignore Mode C signals until they got to a level typical of, say 2 miles away.

Yes, there will be all the PAW variables you mentioned but perhaps a good starting point to possibly refine upon as more data becomes available?

As all Mode C transponders are built and tested to certified levels (I assume they are?), and most installations use standard transponder antennas, I wonder if there is really a significant difference in transmitted power from different aircraft/installations?

Tony

Tony, that's what Lee has asked the 'engineering group' to help him with (though due to family commitments, weather and a back problem I've yet to contribute my share). We fully acknowledge the difficulty of determining accurate range to raw transponders solely from signal strength, especially given the many variables of transmission / reception as referred to by Paul above, but feel it's really important not to simply disregard such a large group of aircraft without giving the problem due investigation.

The counter argument is that you create too many false alerts, then people will no longer trust it.  At least with PAW and Mode S you know if you get an alert then it's accurate.

The Zaon devices lost credibility pretty fast, for alerting to traffic that wasn't there or vice versa.  So, people don't trust them.  It actually creates MORE pilot workload, because now you have to actually take time to verify the alert, thereby diverting attention from what the pilot should be doing.. BAD! and goes against the ethos of a device that doesn't impair pilot workload and cockpit efficiency.

Wouldn't want PAW to be tarred with the same brush, by giving bad alerts.... the majority of alerts would come from ModeC and would be very unreliable. The PAW system would then very quickly gain a bad reputation.

Needs to be carefully considered, in my opinion :-)


Wobble wing,

I fully agree, which is why I volunteered to help Lee with the testing. As a long term ZAON MRX PCAS user, (since 2009 including  trips abroad) I am fully aware of the issues.

Yes it does give alerts for which you can't find the aircraft - generally due to a CAT with it's higher power transponder, but these are not in reality 'false' alerts and once you get used to the system can be quickly disregarded.

My real worry is that without raw transponder detection, PAW users may get lulled into a false sense of security and allow lookout to become lax. Especially bearing in mind that GA traffic - which is what we are most at risk from - which wants to fly in controlled airspace will happily fit a transponder (lots already have), but are unlikely to go down the ADSB route unless it becomes easier /cheaper (viz. the recent uncertified ADSB trials and the potential for PAW to provide the 'uncertified' GPS source if this goes ahead).

As has been said earlier, until ALL GA and commercial helicopters (very unlikely) can be persuaded to adopt PAW, raw transponder detection is the best route we have to a very significant proportion of the aircraft likely to fly into us!

Please bear with us and let us give it a fair trial. If it can't be done to an acceptable level of reliability, I know Lee won't roll it out.

Best regards meantime

Peter

p.s. In my experience, When the ZAON 'fails' to alert me to a nearby aircraft, the most likely scenario is that it is NOT transponder equipped. Don't be too quick to 'blame' the ZAON - PAW won't 'see' aircraft not broadcasting any form of alert either!!
« Last Edit: December 24, 2015, 11:13:41 am by exfirepro »

Paul_Sengupta

Re: Mode C/S
« Reply #37 on: December 24, 2015, 10:44:19 am »
The difference between the Zaon and this of course is that this can differentiate between bearingless (Mode C or Mode S with no ADS-B) contacts and those with ADS-B, so wouldn't alert to all the commercial traffic. There are suggestions in the pipeline for various switches and filters so that you can choose to only display the contacts likely to cause conflict.

exfirepro

Re: Mode C/S
« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2015, 11:02:34 am »
Exactly Paul,

I personally would limit bearingless targets to say <5 miles ( or even <2) and +/- 1,500 feet max - i.e. the immediate danger zone and the distance you can reasonably see. The general principle I apply with the ZAON is anything I can't see after an alert and a good look round is a CAT outside this range (due to its much higher power transponder swamping the ZAON) which I can therefore disregard and move on. If it gets any closer, the ZAON soon tells me and I look again, with no harm done and no great increase in my workload.

Peter

Robski

Re: Mode C/S
« Reply #39 on: December 25, 2015, 07:05:06 am »
Also an affordable, low power ads-b out transmitter (I.e. not a full mode S transponder) would be nice!  ;)

I'm afraid dedicated ADS-B out is only any use if you don't have any sort of transponder.

CAA/NATS will not permit more than one 1090Mhz transmission device in an aircraft.

That us the main driver behind Le'e's P3I initiative of course. :)

I realise this is what P3I is for.

Hadn't realised one could only have one 1090 tx from an aircraft. Thanks for that.

I was thinking more of 'ads-b out only' for aircraft with no electrics. Transponders are really hungry, as well as expensive.
Rob
If the good Lord had intended man to fly He would have given him more money.

The Westmorland Flyer

Re: Mode C/S
« Reply #40 on: December 25, 2015, 10:23:13 am »
I'm afraid dedicated ADS-B out is only any use if you don't have any sort of transponder.

CAA/NATS will not permit more than one 1090Mhz transmission device in an aircraft.
That's actually not quite correct. Most CAT and quite a lot of high end GA carries more than one transponder for redundancy, however only one can be in use at a time. One reason for this is that the transmitter of transponder 1 would blow up the receiver of transponder 2 and vice-versa, since they are operating on exactly the same frequency. Another issue is having two transponders both squawking the same aircraft ID, squawk code, etc. from the same position. Jolly confusing to radars and their controllers!

Transponders are really hungry, as well as expensive.
Modern Mode S transponders aren't particularly greedy. Typical average power consumption is well under 1A at 12V which is easily within the capabilities of a small battery to provide for a few hours of flight. A non-squawking ADS-B out transmitter would require much the same power budget.

« Last Edit: December 25, 2015, 11:14:43 am by The Westmorland Flyer »
John
G-JONL, Sportcruiser, Carlisle

SteveN

Re: Mode C/S
« Reply #41 on: December 26, 2015, 12:18:49 pm »
Quote
One reason for this is that the transmitter of transponder 1 would blow up the receiver of transponder 2 and vice-versa, since they are operating on exactly the same frequency

Mmmm. Transponders transmit on 1090Mhz but receive on 1030Mhz so can't see any blow up caused by that.

Anyway our £5 dongles that do listen on 1090 seem to cope just fine :)

I think NAT's issue re LPAT  is garbling though that happens to some degree anyway. I wish they would at least try both transponder and LPAT ADS-B out together in their ongoing trail and see if it 'just works' in real life. .  It would save a lot of us shelling out to upgrade our MODE S to add ADS-B.

I'd like to understand how NATS can tell if it is one of two devices transmitting anyway.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2015, 01:18:29 pm by SteveN »

AlanB

Re: Mode C/S
« Reply #42 on: December 26, 2015, 04:04:02 pm »
Quote
One reason for this is that the transmitter of transponder 1 would blow up the receiver of transponder 2 and vice-versa, since they are operating on exactly the same frequency

Mmmm. Transponders transmit on 1090Mhz but receive on 1030Mhz so can't see any blow up caused by that.

Anyway our £5 dongles that do listen on 1090 seem to cope just fine :)

I think NAT's issue re LPAT  is garbling though that happens to some degree anyway. I wish they would at least try both transponder and LPAT ADS-B out together in their ongoing trail and see if it 'just works' in real life. .  It would save a lot of us shelling out to upgrade our MODE S to add ADS-B.

I'd like to understand how NATS can tell if it is one of two devices transmitting anyway.

As Ive done quite a lot of the Flying with LPAT on behalf of AOPA and NATS perhaps I can input some thoughts.

Not using the Aircraft Transponder during flying of the LPAT was defined by the CAA to avoid interference, garble and FRUIT, from the LPAT with the conventional Mode-S and A/C Transponder. It has not been determined scientifically that the LPAT would cause problems with the conventional ground interrogations/response but a precaution that was implemented as part of the CAA authorisation to conduct the trials.

In my particular case the need to switch of my Transponder is a more of a practical issue with that fact that I also have an ADS-B enabled transponder hence during the flying trails we needed to be confident that the ground tracking of the LPAT and receipt by an LPAT in another aircraft was from the LPAT transmissions. In addition we needed to be certain that any onboard transponder was not flooding the Rx of the LPAT and affecting range performance of the LPAT Rx.

Overall the trials of the LPAT are being done in an environment to determine the performance of the LPAT and therefore eliminate any possible effect of a working transponder in the same aircraft. In addition the CAA authorisation for the LPAT is for only one working transponder in the aircraft undertaking the trials.

Having said all that Im sure I have had both operating together, pure accident, and not had any reports from ATC that I have disappeared from their radar :-) but nothing formally tried and perhaps we need to include an LPAT flight with an active transponder to determine if LPAT performance is affected on the RX side. As you suggest a well designed Rx should be able to cope with a nearby Tx on the same frequency within limits as my onboard PCAS as well as other existing traffic warning devices demonstrate.

Ref the discussion on the use of two active Transponders in the same aircraft i.e. Conventional and/or LPAT. This would produce interesting results if they both would respond to ground interrogations, the LPAT does not respond to conventional Ground Interrogations, as the Radar Display Trackers would see two response from a target. At the moment the ADS-B position data from the Uncertified GPS enable Transponders and LPAT, is not sent to any of the Radar Tracking software but only recorded so in this safety conscious environment it can be determine if the accuracy, reliability and integrity of the ADS-B transmissions from uncertified GPS is sufficient for presentation to ATC either on its own or as part of a combined Conventional Transponder, ADS-B enable environment. In the future - lots of work still to do and part of the overall European Trials of uncertified ADS-B enabled transponders, including LPAT, I'm sure this is the direction that it will go in Europe and is already part of the overall surveillance environment in other countries where conventional SSR ground Stations are challenged by terrain and other factors.

All of this is part of a European Project EVA which is looking at the use of Electronic Conspicuity devices to assist the VFR pilot. You can read more of this in the AOPA magazine.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year..

Alan
Europa XS Mode-S ADS-B out enabled.

The Westmorland Flyer

Re: Mode C/S
« Reply #43 on: December 26, 2015, 07:01:01 pm »
Transponders transmit on 1090Mhz but receive on 1030Mhz so can't see any blow up caused by that.
Yes, you're right of course, although 60MHz separation at 1GHz is not a lot for the front end filtering to work on. I have a feeling that if our ADS-B in dongles had their antennas mounted on the underside of the aircraft in the line of fire from the transponder antenna then  they would be less than happy!
John
G-JONL, Sportcruiser, Carlisle

The Westmorland Flyer

Re: Mode C/S
« Reply #44 on: December 26, 2015, 07:13:55 pm »
Interesting Alan, thanks for that.

Yes, I agree there should be no great difficulty with mixing ADS-B out squitter from an ADS-B out device with Mode-S radar replies from a separate transponder, with the proviso of receiver front end protection/blocking/recovery times for the transponder. I guess the ADS-B transmitter could also operate at significantly lower peak power than the transponder, as we're not looking for vast range.
John
G-JONL, Sportcruiser, Carlisle