Author Topic: Connect PAW with Powermouse  (Read 1056 times)

Admin

Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2020, 09:21:23 pm »
Just unplug the gps dongle, it will use the flarm gps automatically

exfirepro

Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2020, 09:34:03 am »
Hi Patrick,

Just unplug the gps dongle, it will use the flarm gps automatically

But only if you have the RS232 to USB Connection in place between the two devices of course.

If you do try this option, please let us know how you get on. We corresponded with LXNav about this issue at the time, so it will be interesting to see if they have improved the GPS in the new FlarmBat and if it proves more reliable as a GPS source than my (Classic) FlarmMouse. (I now run the FlarmMouse and Rosetta on their own independent GPSes).

Regards

Peter

« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 06:58:58 am by exfirepro »

Kurt37

Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2020, 09:27:49 pm »
Just unplugging, wow didn't think it would be that easy. Yes the ftdi cable arrived as well, as soon as the flarmbat arrives I will compare both ways and will report the results.


exfirepro

Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2020, 11:12:58 pm »
Yes, Lee likes to keep things as simple as possible. Looking forward to hearing the results.

Regards

Peter

Kurt37

Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2020, 06:57:32 am »
Hi there,

Al parts have now arrived. I will make a small documentary of the parts used, the config work (although Peter has done a great job on that, thank you, without that I wouldn't have made it), and the installment in the Cessna.

Part involved (briefly)
Paw rosetta
Flarmbat with 2 Flarm antennas
2x Flarm Boosters for better reception in the all metal Cessna
Powerbank
9V Battery for the rear Booster
2 SuperFANT Flarm Antennas

I've got the Flarmbat and the Rosetta connected (crimping was very unstable and I just used a pin 4+5 patch cable and soldered the wires with the ones from the ftdi,much better IMHO). I haven't received any Flarm traffic but the Flarmbat obviously tx, every time it does that the Ftdi usb controller flashes green, which is correct I assume.
First experience with GPS: I am feeding the Rosetta (USB Port 2 set to Flarm in and 19200 baud) with Flarmbats GPS, and indoors it is working fine with 7 satellites in use. I will report from today's flight and maybe revert to the internal Rosetta GPS.

Question: since the Flarmbat has a display, and is capable of showing adsb and mode s traffic, is it possible (maybe with a second ftdi usb cable ) to feed the pilotaware adsb/mode s out to the Flarmbat?


exfirepro

Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2020, 09:37:21 am »
Morning Patrick,

IIRC your FlarmBat is the ‘Flarm-only’ version (without the optional ADSB Receiver).

Rosetta ‘can’ feed data out via USB in FLARM Protocol - designed to feed external displays such as Dynon, but I have no idea how the FlarmBat is configured. I suspect it won’t be configured to allow external ADSB data to be fed in as this would circumvent purchase of their own ADSB Receiver Option.

Just out of interest, for a while now I have been involved in development testing one of these for one of our independent ‘partner companies’... http://Aircrew.co.uk

Originally designed in response to requests from PilotAware Users for a small dedicated self-contained traffic display, I now use Aircrew as my ‘primary’ traffic display - fed combined traffic (including integrated or re-broadcast FLARM and Mode-S MLAT) and GPS data from Rosetta by WiFi, - in parallel with SkyDemon on my iPad (which adds navigational and situational awareness by virtue of its ‘moving map’ chart). I have the Aircrew mounted at eye level on my flexwing’s ‘Front Strut’, so noticing incoming traffic is almost automatic, without significantly interrupting my visual scan. An added bonus is that the traffic display ‘range’ can be zoomed in or out quickly and easily using the built-in rotary knob - even with gloved hands, which (in my case) will be of immense benefit come winter.

The Aircrew also has an easily selectable artificial horizon and track deviation indicator which would be useful if I ever find myself inadvertently in cloud or poor viz. (not unusual conditions when flying here in Scotland).

Just thought you might be interested.

Looking forward to hearing how it all goes.

Best Regards

Peter

Edit: Can you provide a link to your ‘Flarm Boosters’ please. I am interested in how they ‘boost reception’ without excessively attenuating what is already a relatively weak transmit signal.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 10:11:16 am by exfirepro »

Kurt37

Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2020, 02:02:50 am »
Thanks for the info, I will look into it.

My first "test" flight experiences in a full metal C172S:

GPS: Feeding GPS from the Flarmbat to the Rosetta was without problems, it took 2 min to find a fix and had a constant of 6-9 satellites in use. No drop outs at all.Skydemon had a blue or green flag and altitude was a max of 50ft off my altimeter. That was all archived with the Flarmbat under the coaming (mainly plastic, but small metal bits still there, definitely no line of sight with the sky).

ADSB/Mode S: good. I received lots of traffic.

Flarm: very good. Traffic was transmitted to the Rosetta, no dropouts. Range with Flarm Booster and two SuperFANT antennas 20-25 km (front glare shield with 1.5m cable and rear shield 3.0m cable lengths). Both powered by RX Flarm Booster, TX is just bypassed, low noise filter:
https://shop.jetvision.de/epages/64807909.mobile/en_GB/?ViewObjectID=33942412

We had a coax front antenna cable disconnect, so forward range is not yet confirmed.
Traffic Radar:
I started off using skydemon only but ended up using PAW radar page (more contrast and more importantly more traffic visible).
Skydemon was only showing our other club aircraft when he approached us within 2nm on adsb. We were on a taxi way and he did touch and goes. On SD I only saw him during landing (threshold) and then he disappeared on skydemon but was visible on the Flarmbat and paw traffic page. Why is that? Is there any experience with traffic not been forwarded to SD? Skydemon settings for traffic were at maximum.
..
Ground station:
We picked up one OGN-R on our flight (the one in Rheine something with Rock or EDWN?) We were in 2000ft at all times and I think the horizontal distance was approx 15km. Can you Peter check at what the range of that PAW station in Rheine we were picking it up. Hex code 3DCE08.

So so far so good, I've been getting lots of info out of this forum and from Keith, now hoping to give some back to the forum.
Pictures of the whole set-up to come.

Cheers
Patrick

« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 07:57:27 am by Kurt37 »

exfirepro

Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2020, 08:43:26 am »
Morning Patrick,

Thanks for the report. You certainly haven’t wasted any time! I have commented under your individual headings.

GPS: Good on the GPS feed from the FlarmBat, that sounds much more reliable than I was getting from my FlarmMouse. I’m guessing PowerFlarm must use an updated GPS unit with a better antenna - especially if as you say it is mounted under the coaming (behind the dashboard)*. I must say I’m a bit surprised if you have fitted the FlarmBat there. I would want it on top so I can see the inbuilt display. I find the FLARM display linked to my FlarmMouse very useful - to confirm it has GPS fix and is transmitting and to point me to the gliders when they are ‘hiding’ just below cloudbase.

* I take it we are both talking about the same thing here? In English the ‘coaming’ is the flat area on top of the dashboard below the windscreen?

FLARM: Thank you for the info on the Flarm Booster. I now remember seeing these before, but ruling them out on cost. I might be tempted to have another look when they come back in stock.

ADSB/ Mode-S: You say you received lots of traffic,... but then go on to report that ‘SkyDemon was only showing our other club aircraft when he approached us within 2nm on adsb. We were on a taxi way and he did touch and goes. On SD I only saw him during landing (threshold) and then he disappeared on SkyDemon but was visible on the Flarmbat and paw traffic page. Why is that? Is there any experience with traffic not being forwarded to SD? SkyDemon settings for traffic we’re at maximum.’

If the other aircraft is truly ADSB (or Mode-S ES) you should see it reliably from well over 50km - often as much as 100-150Km (though range will be much less if you are on the ground or blocked by hangars or terrain). Mode-S on the other hand is dependent on position as it only transmits when interrogated by Radar (or TCAS), so often disappears at low level or when the aircraft is on the ground (except at or near commercial airports, where it is triggered by their Ground Radar).

The only reason for traffic received by PilotAware not to be sent to SkyDemon is if your settings in PilotAware Configure are set to prevent this. You should make sure that you have...

Bearingless Contacts Settings (Mode-C/S)

‘Mode-C/S Select’ set to ‘Mode CS + Filter’ (+ Filter if you are running a transponder)

‘Mode-C/S 3D’ set to ‘Enabled’  to receive MLAT (if available from local Ground stations)

‘Mode-C/S Sensitivity’ set to ‘Short’ or ‘Medium Range’  I suggest ‘Medium’ or even ‘Long Range’ for initial testing, dependent on quantity of traffic.

‘Mode-C/S Vertical Display Range’ SDR initially to +/- 2000ft (or greater for testing).

Positional Contacts Settings (P3i, ADSB, FLARM and MLAT - where available)

These were introduced to allow limits to be set for Electronic Flight Bags (EFBs) which don’t have range setting options. When using EFBs which do, like SkyDemon or EasyVFR, leave these on the default maxima and set range limits in your EFB.

Having said all that, are you sure the other aircraft was transmitting ADSB - it sounds much more like a FLARM or Mode-S scenario?

If it definitely was transmitting ADSB, I suspect that the problem was a very bad case of antenna blocking.

If you have mounted Rosetta and the Flarmbat underneath the coaming and you are using the standard antennas mounted to Rosetta, there will be a high probability of both the P3i and 1090 signals being blocked by your engine, firewall and aircraft metal bodywork between your  antennas and that of other aircraft. If that is the case, you need to consider either resiting the Rosetta or using remote antennas.

Ground Station: Unfortunately, although PWNKRock at Neuenkirchen and PWETHEBQ at Salzburg both show on my ‘Stations List’ in our Database and on glidertracker.de and the ognrange sites, a search under ‘My Aircraft’ in our database using your Hex ID from my login fails to bring up any report.

I see no mention by the way of a station PWEDWN on our database nor can I find it on glidertracker.org or Glidertracker.de, though there is a Flarm-only station EDWN1 located at Flugplatz Nordhorn Lingen - but not on the PAW network. Both PWNKRock and PWETHEBQ report on both Glidertracker and https://ognrange.glidernet.org .

I will ask Chris, Lee or Keith to check again against your HexID as my Database access is restricted - they all have wider access.

Best Regards

Peter


« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 09:19:52 am by exfirepro »

Kurt37

Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2020, 02:48:22 pm »
https://ibb.co/f8ST5cf

I have attached a pic to show where the unit is. It is in front of the dash under the coaming, if that is the correct word. The Cessna has a 12cm lip that extense rearwards into the cabin. The reason to that was to avoid obstructing the view. The pic shows dummy parts made out of cardboard, so we could think of a way of attaching before the parts arrived. The final solution will be a 3D printed box, with appropriate outlets. The flarmdisplay sticks out of the front and is easily visible.
The GPS of the Flarmbat is under the coaming, if that description was confusing I hope the picture explains it. However the GPS is no problem.


Reg my traffic problem:
Adsb reception is good, 50km+. The antennas sticks out above the coaming.


The traffic I mentioned was an ADSB Out, because I know that aircraft.
What confuses me: he was visible at all times in the PAW Radar, so I can rule out antenna blockage, mode s only etc. The fact that SD and PAW were not matching makes me think. All SD traffic Settings were set to max. In my understanding everything PAW radar see-> SD sees? and that wasn't the only traffic that didn't show up in SD? What could be wrong?
I'm flying tomorrow for test flight #2 and will post more pics and results.

Kind regards

Patrick

.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 03:50:34 pm by Kurt37 »

exfirepro

Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2020, 03:57:43 pm »
Thanks Patrick,

The photo of the ‘mock-up’ certainly helps make things clearer. I look forward to seeing your photos of the actual installation.

With regards to your traffic problem, and bearing in mind my earlier suggestions, the only other things I can think to ask is What type (make/model) of tablet are you using for your SkyDemon display? and Which ‘Device Connect Setting’ are you using (in PilotAware / Configure) ? I assume as it is a brand new Rosetta it is running Software Version 20190621 (displayed on the PilotAware Home Screen).

If you want to see pure Mode C and Mode S (as warning rings around your aircraft) as well as ‘Known Position’ targets, you must use ‘PilotAware UDP, both in PilotAware and in SkyDemon/Setup/Third Party Devices, then ‘Go Flying / Use PilotAware’. The GDL90 option won’t display ‘Bearingless Targets’.

With the exception of the range settings I covered earlier, I can’t think of any other reason off hand why you would see traffic on PilotAware Radar and on the PAW Traffic Screen but not on (presumably) the same tablet on SkyDemon.

Anyone else got any ideas,... Lee?

Regards

Peter

Kurt37

Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2020, 04:08:57 pm »
Here is another pic.

https://ibb.co/n6hJ20P

Yes I would like to see bearing+all bearingless targets in SD.
I am using an iPad mini 5, settings were TCP UDP auto and in SD Flarm with air connect. Using pilotaware didn't work with an iPad mini. So following your suggested settings, my selection is wrong.

I also have an android phone, which in SD works with pilotaware selection. I might check that tomorrow to see if that works. Anyhow I will change to UDP.
All software versions on all devices are new and up to date.
The same tablet was used for PAW and SD correct.

Kind regards,
Patrick

exfirepro

Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2020, 07:22:00 pm »
Patrick,

Ah, that clarifies things.

You need to use the same setting in PilotAware / Configure and in SkyDemon / Setup / Third Party Devices (sorry I can’t do the German, despite my Great-Grandparents being from just south of Hanover).

I suggest you set both to PilotAware UDP. You shouldn’t use the FLARM /Air Connect Option in SkyDemon as the FLARM traffic is already being integrated in PilotAware via your RS232 to USB lead and will be transferred to SkyDemon as part of the combined traffic signal by UDP - and you aren’t using an Air Connect!

That would explain the problem. PAW Radar will be getting the traffic as it takes it’s feed straight from the PAW WiFi but SkyDemon won’t.

Best Regards

Peter
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 07:26:08 pm by exfirepro »

Alanr

Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2020, 04:05:35 am »
Following this thread I have found very interesting from the use of a Flarm display viewpoint and the connection of Rosetta to FlarmBat.
What I would like to know though has anyone tried connecting via RS232 Rosetta to a separate Flarm V3+display or the LX equivalent small display?
I suppose the question is, is the Rosetta protocol output compatible with the V3+?....this thread has suggested it just might be?
 

Kurt37

Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2020, 06:30:22 am »
Experiences from yesterday's test flight:

The good:
Flarmbat+Rosetta worked perfectly. I have an average range Flarm range of 12km all-round with two internal antennas.
Reg. Rosetta I was connected with OGN-R1 I would say over 30km. Maybe some one can check that range? Adsb in flight range 40km++. GPS very accurate,no drop offs. Constant green or blue flag in SD.

The bad:
SD: Same or even worse problems. Rosetta radar showed traffic (gliders mainly) but it took SD such a long time to display them (only when we got significantly nearer SD displayed traffic. Settings for that USB port Rosetta: UDP, Flarm in 19200 baud, UDP with pilotaware selection. Flarm out on the Flarmbat 19200 baud. Flarmprotocol version I am using 4, what is yours Peter? (Other values are default, 5,6,7) AFAIK there is no horizontal filter in SD. At it can't be the Flarm settings because then rosetta wouldnt see them. That also applies to the filters with the Rosetta, otherwise the Rosetta radar wouldnt see the traffic.
There is something wrong in the communication between Rosetta and SD?

I was sometimes confused by mode S traffic. I have the feeling that it was picked up by Flarm (or maybe ADSB) as a bearing target but the same traffic appeared as a Mode S traffic with their transponder hex code. I was in controlled Airspace and there was definitely only one traffic.
Is that possible?
And while we are on the subject mode S. What does the filter ultra to long range actual mean for me when flying? Can you translate that into approx distances? (E.g. ultra 5nm, short: 1nm?). I have the setting on long and the target was quite far a way.

Kind Regards,
Patrick

« Last Edit: August 04, 2020, 07:42:45 am by Kurt37 »

exfirepro

Re: Connect PAW with Powermouse
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2020, 08:13:50 am »
Hi Alan,

This has been discussed in the past on several threads, both on this Forum and on the ‘Flyer’ Forums. IIRC there are technical reasons why it doesn’t work. I’m certainly not aware of anyone actually getting it to work, or even reporting trying to.

PilotAware can certainly output data via its USB ports using the FLARM protocol, and this has been used successfully (via USB to RS232) to display traffic on external displays like Dynon, but IIRC it doesn’t output the data in the form required to drive these LED displays.

It was in fact in response to the wishes expressed for a simple small display option that Lee developed the ‘PilotAware Radar’ option, which will display on a small smartphone or tablet for those who don’t want (or don’t have room) for a larger tablet or don’t want to have to run (or pay for) an EFB type navigation system.

This was also the prompt which encouraged James Rose to develop his ‘Radar3D’ App for use as a 3-dimensional Traffic display on smartphones, and which subsequently led to the development of the Aircrew Display I mentioned a few posts further back ^^^ see http://aircrew.co.uk

Regards

Peter